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Scott_Lafrance
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What benefit does society derive from same sex marriage?
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CopticChristian
Guest
Lost,
You are. Have you not noticed that this is Catholic Answers and I am a Catholic. I responded as a Catholic should. You should look into Cognitive Behavioral Therapy. One of the tenets as you may or may not know is that you are not your behavior. I have no tolerance for immoral behavior. I have tolerance for people. Since the behavior is not what you are I am in line with CBT. I am not going to convince anyone of anything. I believe that Homosexuality is immoral. I believe that Homosexuals are people that should restrain themselves in their actions. I believe that Homosexual behavior infringes on the individual. I care about people. They may do as they wish. This is a public Catholic forum and I suspect that you should expect that we are not talking about rights here, we are talking about wrongs. There is a difference.
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CopticChristian
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Lost,
You are. You state you are seeking the truth.
It is true that the reproductive tract was created for reproduction?
It is true that the digestive tract was created for digestion and elimination of waste?
The behavior is evil. I see no point in propogating evil behavior in a union. The child has no choice and is forced to accept something that an adult chooses. Children come into this world and accept whatever it is they see, they then formulate, and then conceptualize. They are forced into a life that is not natural and have to determine that those that provided love are something other than natural parents as well as the behavior they are exposed to. I see this is an inherent evil. You don’t have to accept that.
So what is true?
Should people that cannot figure out what their anatomic organs are made for be bringing up children because they have the ability to nurture? Is this true?
Does the ability to nurture equate to right or wrong or is it just an inherent attribute of humanity? Should the ability to nurture be forced on a child because an adult wants to?
Children have no choice in abortion. Children have no choice to participate in this social experiment. Whose side are you on? I am on the side of the best interest of the child.
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LostChemist
Guest
Ok, so abortion and homosexuality is two separate topics that I don’t think we can lump into one. I am for the child as well and find the notion of abortion sickening. I really do. I don’t particularly like the idea of homosexuality but I don’t see how it hurts others? It’s a choice between two consenting adults and if it hurts anyone, it’s themselves. You are very right in the purpose of the reproductive tract, etc. I don’t argue that the idea is wrong. I’m questioning individual aspects as a method to further the conversation along.
Also, there is no research that states that a child raised by a gay couple is any more likely to become homosexual then by a straight couple. Sure, the child may have some confusion about the parental unit. Sure, the child might be confused when looking at other families. In the end though, I postulate that if we have to live in a world with homosexuality and homosexuals are able to care and love for a child, then why not choose the lesser of two evils (child in foster or other state care vs loving home with gay parents)?
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LostChemist
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To play devils advocate: what does society gain from marriage in general? To answer your question, I don’t think that society has anything to gain (that I know of).
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St_Francis
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The points you are making have already been addressed in this thread. If you want to respond to the responses to comments making the same points as you are making, you can quote those responses and comment. That way we will not have to re-write everything all over again.
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Midwest88
Guest
I haven’t read the entire thread nor skimmed it, but wasn’t there a study done in the Scandinavian countries that allow SSM tracking marriage trends within a time span of a decade? The results weren’t promising and it was done by relatively known professor. I’ll try to dig it up if I can.
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Midwest88
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This is cute.
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CopticChristian
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Lost,
You are. You agree that there is evil and there is good?
Abortion is death and murder of a child.
Homosexual parenting is contrary to the natural order and is spiritual death to a child.
Confusing a child you believe is OK.
You believe that when there are two evils you must pick one or the other. Why is it you only have one or the other? If neither is acceptable to me then neither is acceptable to me. In the end a disordered sexual orientation does no good so I cannot approve.
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CopticChristian
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Marriage is a covenant between two people. Not a contract. It is a promise to engage in life together. The obvious end is to procreate and generate and enhance humanity. If these people cannot procreate then it is natural to adopt.
Homosexual cannot marry because they cannot procreate. Adoption in this instance is not the natural order. The union is unnatural. The adoption is unnatural.
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livingwordunity
Guest
When the US Constitution was penned, marriage only had one meaning - a husband married to a wife, just as it had been all through the human history of the world. 50 years ago so-called “same-sex marriage” was never even a concept anywhere in the world or in human history. Homosexual behavior had been around since ancient times, but it was always acknowledged as lust and never as marriage.
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CopticChristian
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downloads.frc.org/EF/EF11B30.pdf
Long-Term Effects
Fewer people would marry.
In the Netherlands, the first country in the world to legalize same-sex civil “marriage”, the figures are even more dramatic. A 2005 report indicated that only 12% of same-sex cohabiting couples in that country have married, with another 10% in what are called “registered partnerships.” 26 By contrast, 82% of heterosexual couples in the Netherlands (as of 2004) were married.27 This means that 78% of the same-sex couples in the Netherlands have seen no necessity for legal recognition of their relationships at all, while only 18% of opposite-sex couples have similarly rejected marriage.
These figures show that a large percentage, and possibly even an outright majority, of homosexuals—even those already living with a partner—neither need nor desire to participate in the institution of marriage. Legalizing same-sex “marriage” would be very effective in sending a message of endorsement of homosexual behavior. But the indifference of most homosexuals to “marriage” would send a message to society that marriage does not matter—that it is no longer the normative setting for sexual relations and child-rearing, but is instead nothing more than one relationship option among many, made available as a government entitlement program to those who seek taxpayer-funded benefits.
This is one of many of the problems associated with the notion of gay marriage…
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CopticChristian
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This is a problem
ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21324241
Can J Psychiatry. 2011 Jan;56(1):35-43.
Sexual orientation and its relation to mental disorders and suicide attempts: findings from a nationally representative sample.
Bolton SL, Sareen J.
SourceDepartment of Community Health Sciences and Research Associate, Department of Psychiatry, University of Manitoba, Winnipeg, Manitoba. sbelik@hsc.mb.ca
It appears that the homosexual population is at high risk for anxiety, mental illness and suicide. This exposes unsuspecting children to a higher rate of mental illness than the general population.
This is a consequence.
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CopticChristian
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This is a problem
ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22035524
J Assoc Nurses AIDS Care. 2011 Nov-Dec;22(6):444-53. doi: 10.1016/j.jana.2011.08.004.
Human papillomavirus and anorectal carcinoma knowledge in men who have sex with men.
Blackwell CW, Eden C.
Homosexual men are at higher risk for viral infection and anal carcinoma. Children adopted into this environment would be exposed to potential health risks that are not seen in a heterosexual counterpart. Childern would be exposed to knowledge of Cancer of the anus and the reasons for this cancer potentially causing emotional distress not seen in a heterosexual counterpart.
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Benay
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So very many comments and emotional responses to this thread.
On the issue of gay relationship being unstable, I wonder how stable are the heterosexual relationships of unmarried couples living together. There are fewer marriages and far more couples “shacking up.” Both Protestant as well as Catholic. Just how stable and long-term are these relationships?
On the issue of gay paents as role models for sexual behavior, I wonder how many heterosexual families are good role models for sexual behavior? (ex extramarital affairs, married men keeping mistresses, heterosexual married men involved in prostitution (as well as heterosexual married women), married men involved in pornography, heterosexual married men practicing pedophilia, and on and on.
Seems to me that Gay men and Lesbians are not the only ones who are violating the commandments of the church.
When we point the finger at one group for something, we might remember there are four other fingers pointing back at us.
On the issue of gay relationship being unstable, I wonder how stable are the heterosexual relationships of unmarried couples living together. There are fewer marriages and far more couples “shacking up.” Both Protestant as well as Catholic. Just how stable and long-term are these relationships?
On the issue of gay paents as role models for sexual behavior, I wonder how many heterosexual families are good role models for sexual behavior? (ex extramarital affairs, married men keeping mistresses, heterosexual married men involved in prostitution (as well as heterosexual married women), married men involved in pornography, heterosexual married men practicing pedophilia, and on and on.
Seems to me that Gay men and Lesbians are not the only ones who are violating the commandments of the church.
When we point the finger at one group for something, we might remember there are four other fingers pointing back at us.
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Scott_Lafrance
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The difference being that sacramentally married heterosexual parents retain the possibility of being proper sexual role models for their children. Homosexual ones can never be. The are improper by the very nature of their disordered sexuality.
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wynnejj
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These heterosexual misbehaviors exist surely. There is little support in society for sanctioning and regularizing and making them an institution or hallmark of a better society due to superior tolerance in a pluralistic society (yet). Are you suggesting that you seek to legalize and regularize these practices for the good of the young?
Many gay relationships involve partners who had failed heterosexual relationships, received custody of their kids (and rightly so in some cases) but, changed their sexual orientation due to the psychological trauma they experienced. They raise their kids with a distrust of traditional marriage and, their kids are inclined to experiment (and sometimes encouraged) to explore homosexual relations. Of course, some come out of the closet with shame to exclaim “I think I’m heterosexual. I hope I am still marriageable in society.”. To many heterosexuals … the answer is NO. The thing about marriage in a free society … you get to choose your partners and your right to be intolerant of core belief differences in a lifelong prospective partner.
Gay marriages seek to regularize immorality as proper behavior. Your citations of heterosexual misbehaviors are just that … and there is no effort afoot to institutionalize these practices in society.
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wynnejj
Guest
True. You highlight something that much of Christian society, in attempting to rationalize the use of contraception, will support gay relationships and even gay marriage - despite the clear proscription in the Bible against homosexual practices - to wit, Sodom & Gomorrah. It is a misguided attempt at avoiding that funny feeling of hypocrisy in the use of contraceptive practices. And, they generally turn a blind eye to their young “shacking up” which is equally as bad.
Heterosexual contraceptive co-habitation and gay relationships have the same thing in common. Two partners draw each other into the practice of mutual masturbation. Contraception & cohabitation - “shacking up” - are indeed grave sins on the same order as homosexuality.
It is one thing if Eve eats the forbidden fruit. It is an additionally grave matter for Eve if Eve draws Adam into eating the forbidden fruit. It is an additionally grave matter for Adam if Adam validates Eve’s misbehavior by joining her in the eating the forbidden fruit.
The teaching against masturbation – which would include mutual masturbation – has its biblical roots in Matthew 5:27-30.
usccb.org/bible/mt/5:27
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peace2u2
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Because, God says homosexuality is wrong.
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InSearchofGrace
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You directed your post to Elizabeth, but perhaps I can help.
You could google this (I would provide the link, but to cut/paste of links on iPad is a challenge).
Does the Legalization of Same-Sex Marriage or Civil Unions Affect Divorce Rates?
Jonathan Eggleston University of Virginia
As you will note, the analyst finds preliminary evidence suggesting that the marriage and divorce decisions of heterosexual couples are not affected by whether or not same-sex couples are allowed to form legal unions, basing on statistics in states with recognized same sex partnerships.
At the most, it appears, correlation, not causation, can be claimed.
Of interest is what the gay divorce data reveals, this one from
Learn how gay divorce affects the gay marriage debate and read about the first gay divorce cases in Massachusetts and Canada.
(I can’t cut/paste the link but you can plug the phrase or sentence above in your search engine field.)
Massachusetts Gay Divorce**
Gay couples began seeking gay divorce around seven months after same sex marriages were legalized in Massachusetts. The concept of gay divorce was so unprecedented in the state that couples had to fill out obsolete forms that still read “husband” and “wife.” The first gay divorce case in Suffolk County, which includes Boston, was filed a male couple who married five days after same sex marriage was legalized. The couple, a 33-year-old religious educator from Boston and a 39-year-old professor, were based in Washington. The couple cited that their relationship had ‘irretrievably broken down’ as the reason for divorce, stating that their interests had grown in different directions. The settlement focused on custody of their three cats, who will live exclusively with the professor. As part of the settlement the professor agreed to provide his ex-husband with regular updates on the cats ‘in recognition of the emotional hardship of such relinquishment’. Hampshire County reported a divorce filing within two months of the first gay weddings. The state’s largest county, Middlesex County, had its first gay divorce three months into the legalization, involving a 38-year-old and a 27-year-old. The older partner cited ‘cruel and abusive treatment’ as the reason for the break-up.*
Gay Break-Up Rates
There are no reliable gay divorce rates worldwide, as not all counties keep track of which divorce filings are from heterosexual and homosexual couples. In Massachusetts, when couples applied for divorce two months after gay marriage was legalized, opponents of gay marriage said the divorces, occurring so soon after the weddings, confirm that gay couples are not suited to marriage. One group stated that the gay men were too ‘promiscuous’ to make a marriage work.
The national divorce rate in the US is near 50 percent. Gay rights groups argue that mentioning gay divorce is a cheap shot. The gay divorce rate has little to do with gay marriage, as gay divorce is another rights issue.
Canada’s First Gay Divorce
Canada’s first gay marriage divorce was filed by one of the first gay couples to be married in Ontario. The couple was married a week after same-sex marriage was legalized in Ontario. They had been together for five years but separated five days after their wedding day.
Divorce laws had not been amended by that time to apply to same-sex couples, and still referred to spouses as ‘a man and a woman who are married to each other.’ The court had to defer the case until the Canadian Supreme Court ruled on the legality of gay marriages nationwide.
A media ban was instituted by the court to prevent publication of further details of the case.
Why Gay Couples Divorce
Many gay couples who married shortly after same sex marriage was legalized in their country waited years for their chance. Such couples might be thought to have a higher than usual level of commitment and stability. Yet gay and lesbian couples were divorcing just months after they married – or less.
Gay couples divorce for many reasons. Gay couples experience strong cultural pressures. Gay couples are also more likely to be two-income families with no children, which in the straight population have a higher risk of divorce. One of the less-thought-of reasons for gay marriage is to ensure that a couple in the process of break-up can access divorce courts.
As gay marriage is a relatively recent phenomenon, the gay divorce rate will not stabilize for a long time. Gay couples can only now access the streamlined legal processes that marriage and divorce provides. A study showed that the gay divorce rate for Dutch lesbian couples was higher than gay male couples, although the reason wasn’t clear. Data from Nordic countries, where gay civil unions have been legal for more than a decade, also showed a slightly higher divorce rate for lesbians.
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