Social Consequence of Gay Marriage

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And all I see in your post is the notion that you think that you are right, that homosexuality is wrong, and won’t even entertain the possibility of anything else. If you have a problem with what I think, then why are you responding?
Do you think you are right? Do you think those who disagree with you are wrong? In that case, why are you responding to us?
Times will change and what will happen to your beliefs if suddenly the Pope comes out in favor of gay marriage? I’m serious here. Let’s say that one day he approves of it. Will you?
This *cannot *happen. It is like asking how we would react if 2+2 suddenly were to start equalling 5.

If you were to study the history of Catholic thought, you would find a consistency unequaled even in science, because not only is the Catholic Church dedicated to truth, it is protected by the Holy Spirit.
Being tolerant of others is not being lost. I choose not to condemn people for the choices they make. Just because I don’t agree with it doesn’t mean that I’m going to try to convince others that it’s wrong. It right for them.
There are certain areas in which I am sure that you are happy that others in society refuse to tolerate any choice made by any person. Some choices *are *wrong. I bet that you would not “tolerate” your banker’s taking money from your account whenever his gambling debts rose too high, would you? And you probably would not “tolerate” someone’s stealing your car. And I bet you probably would not tolerate someone’s beating a child on the street. You may even be happy about the fact that so many people have dedicated a lot of time to convincing people that those types of activity are, indeed, *wrong. *

I am willing to tolerate, in the Catholic sense which I described earlier, people’s sexual activity when conducted in private. The unfortunate thing is that in requesting or demanding that homosexuals be able to marry, they are bringing their behavior out in public.

You are responding on this thread, presumably to convince us we are wrong, no? so you do sometimes forgo tolerance of other people’s choices to try to convince them they are wrong.
Why do the rest of us care so much? Are they infringing upon your rights? How?
If you were to read the entire thread, you would find out.
 
To play devils advocate: what does society gain from marriage in general? To answer your question, I don’t think that society has anything to gain (that I know of).
Lost,

You are. Do you believe in God?

Do you believe you were created?

Do you believe that there are truths that cannot change?

Do you belive in Magic?

Do you believe in the music that warms my soul?
 
What does society gain from marriage?

For one thing, it gains the next generation. Without the next generation, society dies out pretty quickly. With the next generation, there are future citizens and taxpayers. Because the next generation is conceived by a man and woman coming together in a marital union, mom and dad become their first educators. The family unit provides a great service to society. Without it, society melts into chaos, as it is now beginning to do with the continuing collapse of the family.

For an in-depth study of family and civilization, I’d recommend a book of the same name:
“Family and Civilization,” by Carle C. Zimmerman.
 
When the US Constitution was penned, marriage only had one meaning - a husband married to a wife, just as it had been all through the human history of the world. 50 years ago so-called “same-sex marriage” was never even a concept anywhere in the world or in human history. Homosexual behavior had been around since ancient times, but it was always acknowledged as lust and never as marriage.
When the Constitution was penned, women had no vote and African Americans could not enter the contract of marriage.

Is your point that women should be relieved of the right to vote, and that all marriages entered by African Americans should be annulled?
 
When the Constitution was penned, women had no vote and African Americans could not enter the contract of marriage.*

Is your point that women should be relieved of the right to vote, and that all marriages entered by African Americans should be annulled?
How can you compare SS’M’ rights to the legitimate struggle of African Americans for equality or by women in their movement to secure voting rights?

Sexual behavior or orientation, the latter a recent construct, is not equivalent to skin color pigment and sex as distinction between men and women, the basis that blacks and the fair sex had been separated as a class to discriminate.

The civil right of equal treatment cannot constitute social reality by declaration. Civil rights protections function to assure every citizen equal treatment under the law depending on what the material dispute in law is all about. Law that is just must begin by properly recognizing and distinguishing identities and differences in reality in order to be able to give each its legal due.

To argue that two same sex people who have not in the past been recognized as marriageable should now be recognized as marriage partner eligible, you must demonstrate that marriage law (not civil rights law) has overlooked or misidentified something that it should not have overlooked or misidentified.

Marriage law for thousands of years has concerned itself with a particular kind of enduring bond between a man and a woman that includes sexual intercourse—the kind of act that can, not always, lead to the woman’s pregnancy. A homosexual relationship, regardless of how enduring it is as a bond of loving commitment, does not and cannot include sexual intercourse leading to pregnancy. Thus it is not marriage.

Political scientist James Skillen explained: to recognize in law the distinct character of a marriage relationship, which entails sexual intercourse, involves no discrimination of a civil rights kind against those whose bonds do not include sexual intercourse. Those who choose to live together in life-long homosexual relationships; or brothers and sisters who live together and take care of one another; or two friends of the same sex who are not sexually involved but share life together in the same home—all of these may be free to live as they do, and they suffer no civil rights discrimination by not being identified as marriages. A marriage and a homosexual relationship are two different kinds of relationships and it is a misuse of civil rights law to use that law to try to blot out the difference between two different kinds of things.

The question behind marriage is a structural one that precedes lawmaking. The argument about the structural identity of marriage is not a legal argument about how people should be treated within the bonds of that structure. Rather, it is about whether homosexual relationships should be identified as having the structure of marriage, and only after that can civil rights considerations emerge about how citizens should be treated fairly with respect to marriage.

Homosexual activists say that many aspects of their relationships are like marriage—having sexual play, living together, loving one another, etc.—and therefore they should be allowed to call their relationships marriages and be recognized by law as marriage partners. But this cannot be a proper legal matter until the empirical case has been made that a homosexual partnership and a marriage are indistinguishable. Otherwise, the appeal amounts to nothing more than a request that homosexual partners be allowed to call themselves what they want to call themselves regardless of the differences that exist in reality. The answer they want is for law making and adjudicating authorities to change the law based on the principle that reality is defined by the will and declarations of individuals, all of whom should be treated without discrimination.

Gays appeal for judges and lawmakers to ignore distinctions between homosexual and heterosexual relationships in order not to deny citizens the right to call things what they want to call them. It is a version of an appeal for the protection of free speech, and in this case it is a demand that the speech of particular persons carry the authority to define the structure of reality without regard to the basis of past legal judgments. The antidiscrimination principle is appealed to not in order to show that some married couples have previously been denied the recognition of their marriage. Rather the antidiscrimination principle is being used to ask that no citizen be denied the right to call something what he or she wants to call it.

If this happens, we will need to pay close attention to consequences. Judges and public officials will be required to recognize as a marriage any sexually intimate bond between two people who want to call themselves married. There will be no legal basis for restrictions against a homosexual couple obtaining children in ways that they choose. It will mean that when a mature mother and son, or father and daughter, or trio or quartet of partners come to the courts or to the marriage-license bureau to ask that their sexually active relationship be recognized as marriage, there will be no legal grounds of a non-arbitrary kind to reject the requests. Because if it is now arbitrary and unjust to recognize heterosexual marriage as something exclusive and different from homosexual relationships, then it will be arbitrary and unjust not to grant the request of other partners to call their sexually intimate and enduring relationships marriage.

Since legal declarations cannot turn reality into something it cannot become, a variety of conundrums, contradictions, and anomalies will inevitably arise.

Society as a whole needs to answer if SS’M’ would be doing justice to reality and wishes to face the consequences.
 
When the Constitution was penned, women had no vote and African Americans could not enter the contract of marriage.

Is your point that women should be relieved of the right to vote, and that all marriages entered by African Americans should be annulled?
The right of women to vote has nothing to do with marriage.

Marriage of race has nothing to do with same sex marriage. It is an attempt to equate race with sex and that is not the case.
 
How can you compare SS’M’ rights to the legitimate struggle of African Americans for equality or by women in their movement to secure voting rights?

Sexual behavior or orientation, the latter a recent construct, is not equivalent to skin color pigment and sex as distinction between men and women, the basis that blacks and the fair sex had been separated as a class to discriminate.

The civil right of equal treatment cannot constitute social reality by declaration. Civil rights protections function to assure every citizen equal treatment under the law depending on what the material dispute in law is all about. Law that is just must begin by properly recognizing and distinguishing identities and differences in reality in order to be able to give each its legal due.

To argue that two same sex people who have not in the past been recognized as marriageable should now be recognized as marriage partner eligible, you must demonstrate that marriage law (not civil rights law) has overlooked or misidentified something that it should not have overlooked or misidentified.

Marriage law for thousands of years has concerned itself with a particular kind of enduring bond between a man and a woman that includes sexual intercourse—the kind of act that can, not always, lead to the woman’s pregnancy. A homosexual relationship, regardless of how enduring it is as a bond of loving commitment, does not and cannot include sexual intercourse leading to pregnancy. Thus it is not marriage.

Political scientist James Skillen explained: to recognize in law the distinct character of a marriage relationship, which entails sexual intercourse, involves no discrimination of a civil rights kind against those whose bonds do not include sexual intercourse. Those who choose to live together in life-long homosexual relationships; or brothers and sisters who live together and take care of one another; or two friends of the same sex who are not sexually involved but share life together in the same home—all of these may be free to live as they do, and they suffer no civil rights discrimination by not being identified as marriages. A marriage and a homosexual relationship are two different kinds of relationships and it is a misuse of civil rights law to use that law to try to blot out the difference between two different kinds of things.

The question behind marriage is a structural one that precedes lawmaking. The argument about the structural identity of marriage is not a legal argument about how people should be treated within the bonds of that structure. Rather, it is about whether homosexual relationships should be identified as having the structure of marriage, and only after that can civil rights considerations emerge about how citizens should be treated fairly with respect to marriage.

Homosexual activists say that many aspects of their relationships are like marriage—having sexual play, living together, loving one another, etc.—and therefore they should be allowed to call their relationships marriages and be recognized by law as marriage partners. But this cannot be a proper legal matter until the empirical case has been made that a homosexual partnership and a marriage are indistinguishable. Otherwise, the appeal amounts to nothing more than a request that homosexual partners be allowed to call themselves what they want to call themselves regardless of the differences that exist in reality. The answer they want is for law making and adjudicating authorities to change the law based on the principle that reality is defined by the will and declarations of individuals, all of whom should be treated without discrimination.

Gays appeal for judges and lawmakers to ignore distinctions between homosexual and heterosexual relationships in order not to deny citizens the right to call things what they want to call them. It is a version of an appeal for the protection of free speech, and in this case it is a demand that the speech of particular persons carry the authority to define the structure of reality without regard to the basis of past legal judgments. The antidiscrimination principle is appealed to not in order to show that some married couples have previously been denied the recognition of their marriage. Rather the antidiscrimination principle is being used to ask that no citizen be denied the right to call something what he or she wants to call it.

If this happens, we will need to pay close attention to consequences. Judges and public officials will be required to recognize as a marriage any sexually intimate bond between two people who want to call themselves married. There will be no legal basis for restrictions against a homosexual couple obtaining children in ways that they choose. It will mean that when a mature mother and son, or father and daughter, or trio or quartet of partners come to the courts or to the marriage-license bureau to ask that their sexually active relationship be recognized as marriage, there will be no legal grounds of a non-arbitrary kind to reject the requests. Because if it is now arbitrary and unjust to recognize heterosexual marriage as something exclusive and different from homosexual relationships, then it will be arbitrary and unjust not to grant the request of other partners to call their sexually intimate and enduring relationships marriage.

Since legal declarations cannot turn reality into something it cannot become, a variety of conundrums, contradictions, and anomalies will inevitably arise.

Society as a whole needs to answer if SS’M’ would be doing justice to reality and wishes to face the consequences.
If I can jump in… great copy and paste skills. The issue is sexual orientation. That is not rocket science. As basic as skin color or gender.
 
If I can jump in… great copy and paste skills. The issue is sexual orientation. That is not rocket science. As basic as skin color or gender.
Great evasion skills. The issue is homosexual marriage, not sexual orientation. That is not rocket science. Marriage is as basic to society as a common language and a system of laws. Marriage is the foundation of order for each succeeding generation, the place where children learn more than in any other environment how men relate to women, how men and women are different in ways other than genitally, and what the love between the sexes is and is not. You’re right that gender is basic, and gender is essential to the definition of mariage.

An orderly society is not based on subjectively defined institutions, but on commonly held purposes and definitions. Otherwise the result is anarchy and chaos. The one thing the Founding Fathers sought more than anything else is commonality: it is what they sacrificed to achieve. They knew that a mere patchwork form of government and laws, whereby states and individuals “decided” what was good and bad for society, would result in a society which disintegrated.
 
Great evasion skills. The issue is homosexual marriage, not sexual orientation. That is not rocket science. Marriage is as basic to society as a common language and a system of laws. Marriage is the foundation of order for each succeeding generation, the place where children learn more than in any other environment how men relate to women, how men and women are different in ways other than genitally, and what the love between the sexes is and is not. You’re right that gender is basic, and gender is essential to the definition of mariage.

An orderly society is not based on subjectively defined institutions, but on commonly held purposes and definitions. Otherwise the result is anarchy and chaos. The one thing the Founding Fathers sought more than anything else is commonality: it is what they sacrificed to achieve. They knew that a mere patchwork form of government and laws, whereby states and individuals “decided” what was good and bad for society, would result in a society which disintegrated.
I wonder if Homosexuals can provide historical evidence for the appearance of the first homosexuals?
 
Great evasion skills. The issue is homosexual marriage, not sexual orientation. That is not rocket science. Marriage is as basic to society as a common language and a system of laws. Marriage is the foundation of order for each succeeding generation, the place where children learn more than in any other environment how men relate to women, how men and women are different in ways other than genitally, and what the love between the sexes is and is not. You’re right that gender is basic, and gender is essential to the definition of mariage.

An orderly society is not based on subjectively defined institutions, but on commonly held purposes and definitions. Otherwise the result is anarchy and chaos. The one thing the Founding Fathers sought more than anything else is commonality: it is what they sacrificed to achieve. They knew that a mere patchwork form of government and laws, whereby states and individuals “decided” what was good and bad for society, would result in a society which disintegrated.
Uh… zing!
👍
 
It’s hard to believe, that on a Christian site, we could have 18 pages of heated discussion on homosexuality and the consequences of gay marriage.

I don’t recall Jesus getting upset about sexual sins other than adultery. And even then he did not rant on and on. He was far more concerned with justice, love, mercy, forgiveness and humility.

Yet here we have a thread arguing on and on about the sin of homosexual acts. Frankly I can’t figure out why homosexual sins are seen as worse than heterosexual sins. Both are sins and equally rebrehensible. Why choose one as more reprehensible than the other? Reminds me of the parable Jesus told of the Publican and the sinner.

Then we have a heated debate on who has the “right” to enter into a legal marriage contract which some confuse with a sacramental marriage. I thought this thread was supposed to be a conjecture on the “consequences” of extending the right to marry to gays. Yet the arguments seems to have deteriorated into emotional cries of “those who can (are more deserving) and those who can’t.”

Reading this thread makes me sad. tI makes me wonder whatever happened to the statement of early Gentiles that they could recognize Christians easily because of their love for each other. I don’t see a lot of love on this thread.
 
It’s hard to believe, that on a Christian site, we could have 18 pages of heated discussion on homosexuality and the consequences of gay marriage.

I don’t recall Jesus getting upset about sexual sins other than adultery. And even then he did not rant on and on. He was far more concerned with justice, love, mercy, forgiveness and humility.

Yet here we have a thread arguing on and on about the sin of homosexual acts. Frankly I can’t figure out why homosexual sins are seen as worse than heterosexual sins. Both are sins and equally rebrehensible. Why choose one as more reprehensible than the other? Reminds me of the parable Jesus told of the Publican and the sinner.

Then we have a heated debate on who has the “right” to enter into a legal marriage contract which some confuse with a sacramental marriage. I thought this thread was supposed to be a conjecture on the “consequences” of extending the right to marry to gays. Yet the arguments seems to have deteriorated into emotional cries of “those who can (are more deserving) and those who can’t.”

Reading this thread makes me sad. tI makes me wonder whatever happened to the statement of early Gentiles that they could recognize Christians easily because of their love for each other. I don’t see a lot of love on this thread.
Admonishment of sin is love. It is, in fact, one of the highest forms of love. I care about salvation, not necessarily about the modern interpretation of civility.
 
Yet here we have a thread arguing on and on about the sin of homosexual acts. Frankly I can’t figure out why homosexual sins are seen as worse than heterosexual sins. Both are sins and equally rebrehensible. Why choose one as more reprehensible than the other? Reminds me of the parable Jesus told of the Publican and the sinner.
Huh? ( I guess there is no point in responding to your posts directly. )
True. You highlight something that much of Christian society, in attempting to rationalize the use of contraception, will support gay relationships and even gay marriage - despite the clear proscription in the Bible against homosexual practices - to wit, Sodom & Gomorrah. It is a misguided attempt at avoiding that funny feeling of hypocrisy in the use of contraceptive practices. And, they generally turn a blind eye to their young “shacking up” which is equally as bad.

Heterosexual contraceptive co-habitation and gay relationships have the same thing in common. Two partners draw each other into the practice of mutual masturbation. Contraception & cohabitation - “shacking up” - are indeed grave sins on the same order as homosexuality.

It is one thing if Eve eats the forbidden fruit. It is an additionally grave matter for Eve if Eve draws Adam into eating the forbidden fruit. It is an additionally grave matter for Adam if Adam validates Eve’s misbehavior by joining her in the eating the forbidden fruit.

The teaching against masturbation – which would include mutual masturbation – has its biblical roots in Matthew 5:27-30.

usccb.org/bible/mt/5:27
One thing that I should append to the Adam & Eve comments:
It is an additionally grave matter if both Adam & Eve, instead of hiding their sin from God and refusing to seek God’s forgiveness, they decided to make a unified front against God to state that they intend to continue eating the forbidden fruit in open defiance because they disagree with God’s commandments.

That holds true for the rampant sins of “shacking up” for both heterosexuals and homosexuals.
 
It’s hard to believe, that on a Christian site, we could have 18 pages of heated discussion on homosexuality and the consequences of gay marriage.

I don’t recall Jesus getting upset about sexual sins other than adultery. And even then he did not rant on and on. He was far more concerned with justice, love, mercy, forgiveness and humility.

Yet here we have a thread arguing on and on about the sin of homosexual acts. Frankly I can’t figure out why homosexual sins are seen as worse than heterosexual sins. Both are sins and equally rebrehensible. Why choose one as more reprehensible than the other? Reminds me of the parable Jesus told of the Publican and the sinner.

Then we have a heated debate on who has the “right” to enter into a legal marriage contract which some confuse with a sacramental marriage. I thought this thread was supposed to be a conjecture on the “consequences” of extending the right to marry to gays. Yet the arguments seems to have deteriorated into emotional cries of “those who can (are more deserving) and those who can’t.”

Reading this thread makes me sad. tI makes me wonder whatever happened to the statement of early Gentiles that they could recognize Christians easily because of their love for each other. I don’t see a lot of love on this thread.
Are you contending that we, as Christians, should not speak out against SSM? Is love, in your opinion, merely an act of affirming those with whom we might disagree?
 
It’s hard to believe, that on a Christian site, we could have 18 pages of heated discussion on homosexuality and the consequences of gay marriage.

I don’t recall Jesus getting upset about sexual sins other than adultery. And even then he did not rant on and on. He was far more concerned with justice, love, mercy, forgiveness and humility.

Yet here we have a thread arguing on and on about the sin of homosexual acts. Frankly I can’t figure out why homosexual sins are seen as worse than heterosexual sins. Both are sins and equally rebrehensible. Why choose one as more reprehensible than the other? Reminds me of the parable Jesus told of the Publican and the sinner.

Then we have a heated debate on who has the “right” to enter into a legal marriage contract which some confuse with a sacramental marriage. I thought this thread was supposed to be a conjecture on the “consequences” of extending the right to marry to gays. Yet the arguments seems to have deteriorated into emotional cries of “those who can (are more deserving) and those who can’t.”

Reading this thread makes me sad. tI makes me wonder whatever happened to the statement of early Gentiles that they could recognize Christians easily because of their love for each other. I don’t see a lot of love on this thread.
It seems that you haven’t noticed the “tough love” that Christ and the other early Christians practised.

Instructing the ignorant and admonishing the sinner are two of the Spiritual Acts of Mercy.
 
It seems that you haven’t noticed the “tough love” that Christ and the other early Christians practised.

Instructing the ignorant and admonishing the sinner are two of the Spiritual Acts of Mercy.
More importantly, there is a tendency among Christians to discount the lessons learned in the Old Testament. As if Jesus in the New Testament bears no relation to the Lord in the Old Testament.
 
Are you contending that we, as Christians, should not speak out against SSM? Is love, in your opinion, merely an act of affirming those with whom we might disagree?
Actually, what I hear those “Catholics” who are for SSM saying is that instead of “Love the sinner, hate the sin”, we should “Love the sinner, give extra benefits for the sin.”
 
Great evasion skills. The issue is homosexual marriage, not sexual orientation. That is not rocket science. Marriage is as basic to society as a common language and a system of laws. Marriage is the foundation of order for each succeeding generation, the place where children learn more than in any other environment how men relate to women, how men and women are different in ways other than genitally, and what the love between the sexes is and is not. You’re right that gender is basic, and gender is essential to the definition of mariage.

An orderly society is not based on subjectively defined institutions, but on commonly held purposes and definitions. Otherwise the result is anarchy and chaos. The one thing the Founding Fathers sought more than anything else is commonality: it is what they sacrificed to achieve. They knew that a mere patchwork form of government and laws, whereby states and individuals “decided” what was good and bad for society, would result in a society which disintegrated.
Nothing evasive. Human sexuality is core to personality. Some people believe that it should be allowed full expression for homosexuals. Others don’t think so. Those who do think so, consider it to be a human rights - civil rights - equality issue. Those who don’t think that do not see it that way. What is evasive about that? This issue goes to core values and won’t be resolved in this forum. Nobody is getting any points or winning a debate here. The disagreement is too fundamental and goes to the five genetic traits which determine in large measure how one’s moral system develops - what choices one makes in choosing a moral system. The field of moral psychology studies this.
 
Nothing evasive. Human sexuality is core to personality. Some people believe that it should be allowed full expression for homosexuals. Others don’t think so. Those who do think so, consider it to be a human rights - civil rights - equality issue. Those who don’t think that do not see it that way. What is evasive about that? This issue goes to core values and won’t be resolved in this forum. Nobody is getting any points or winning a debate here. The disagreement is too fundamental and goes to the five genetic traits which determine in large measure how one’s moral system develops - what choices one makes in choosing a moral system. The field of moral psychology studies this.
You seem to be of the opinion that morality exists only inside people, that there is no morality except what people think?

Let’s flip this around: morality exists outside ourselves, and there is a true morality to which we adhere to greater or lesser amounts. I posit this because people who have had no exposure to Christian or Jewish thought on the matter have been able to come up with strong moral codes which look remarkably like the Christian moral code. Sure, there are deviations, but they are relatively minor. The big issues of morality exist in almost all societies throughout history. Courage, fortitude, humility, kindness, gratitude, justice–the main virtues are present.

Now, when a person “chooses” a moral system, then we have a bit of a problem. The moral system he chooses may deviate from the true morality posited above. But as a general rule, the moral system chosen will general emphasize his personal strengths and downplay his personal weaknesses. So somone who is very fearful, for example, may “choose” a moral system which downplays courage and emphasizes prudence.

Therefore, people who believe that morality exists outside ourselves have something to discuss. People who think that morality exists entirely within each person are incoherent because they have no way to explain why killing them would be immoral.
 
It’s hard to believe, that on a Christian site, we could have 18 pages of heated discussion on homosexuality and the consequences of gay marriage.

I don’t recall Jesus getting upset about sexual sins other than adultery. And even then he did not rant on and on. He was far more concerned with justice, love, mercy, forgiveness and humility.

Reading this thread makes me sad. tI makes me wonder whatever happened to the statement of early Gentiles that they could recognize Christians easily because of their love for each other. I don’t see a lot of love on this thread.
Jesus was a pious Jew so therefore he would be upset about sexual sins. In the New Testament in Matt. 10:15, 11:23-24 and in Luke 10:12, 17:29, Jesus is referring to the Sacred Scriptures that he was taught:

Gen. 13:13 says: “The men of Sodom were wicked and sinners
exceedingly before the Lord.”

In 19:5 the men of Sodom of every age seek sex with the angels
visiting Lot.They are struck blind in punishment. Cf. Judges 19:22-23.

Lv. 18:223: “You shall not lie with a male as with a woman. It
is an abomination.” And 20:13: “If a man lies with a male as with a woman,
both of them have committed an abomination. They shall surely be put to
death.”

2 Kgs. 23:27. King Josiah destroyed the houses of the male cult
prostitutes. Cf. also I Kgs 14:24; 15:12; 22:46 and Wisdom 14:26.

Ignorance of Scripture is ignorance of God!
 
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