Social Consequence of Gay Marriage

[wynnejj]

An article supposedly about moral psychology and different poles in politics, touching upon the gay marriage topics…

Interview: Jonathan Haidt on Social Conservatives, New Atheists and Civility in Politics

Correcting the link in my previous post…
Interview: Jonathan Haidt on Social Conservatives, New Atheists and Civility in Politics

Jonathan Haidt

(I take it that these are the “5 genetic traits” that tgrath is talking about)

Moral Foundations Theory looks at the way morality varies between cultures and identifies five fundamental moral values shared to a greater or lesser degree by different societies and individuals. These are:

1. Care for others, protecting them from harm. (He also referred to this dimension as Harm.)
2. Fairness, Justice, treating others equally.
3. Loyalty to your group, family, nation. (He also referred to this dimension as Ingroup.)
4. Respect for tradition and legitimate authority. (He also referred to this dimension as Authority.)
5. Purity or Sanctity, avoiding disgusting things, foods, actions.

Haidt has recently added a sixth fundamental value, Liberty/oppression: This foundation is about the feelings of reactance and resentment people feel toward those who dominate them and restrict their liberty.

Not sure whether the “Moral Psychology” angle has anything to do with gay marriage consequences, unless we are talking simply about the fact that hard-wired conservatives that have heightened sense of 3, 4, and 5 will not be able to see the liberal point of view that seems to have a somewhat weaker sense of 3, 4, and 5. (per J. Haidt).

The fact is that everyone has their moral blind spots. It is part of the human condition.

Without the guidance of the Holy Spirit, the Pope would lead us in error due to the human condition. But he does have the guidance of the Holy Spirit, and he will lead the Church infallibly.

The Pope says NO to Gay Marriage … and we can only deduce the validity of the Holy Spirit’s guidance.

 

[irishpatrick]

I agree with you friend…that a sitting President of the US would come out in favor of same sex marriage is a HUGE indicator that our society is changing to more inclusive…same sex marriage and relationships is no long spoken of in hushed tones…our society is coming to an understanding that marital equality is a good thing…despite the religious minorities in our nation decrying the “fall of civilization” and the “destruction of marriage” are becoming more and more…nonsensical…and our nation is beginning to realize “the sky is falling” tactic…just has no meaning for most people any longer…most of us know gay couples…gay couples with children…and their lives are stable…their children happy and well adjusted…it just isn’t the “apocalypse” the conservative religious groups make it out to be after all…the conservative religious “warnings” are losing credibility…slowly but surely…WE HAVE A SITTING PRESIDENT that came out in favor of same sex marriage…THAT IS HUGE!!!

Hmm, interesting response…

Gay marriage supporters have made their major push over the last decade or so…what have we seen during that time?

1. Two signicant wars with many thousands dead.
2. A significant drop in marriage rates.
3. A significant drop in babies being born.
4. The Catholic abuse crisis burst onto the world stage.
5. A housing crisis crushed the housing market in the USA.
6. Millions of jobs left for other nations.
7. The economy collapsed with literally trillions lost nearly overnight.
8. Trillions of borrowed money spent to try to avoid the pain of the collapse.
9. Jobs and the economy, despite all spending efforts, are still terrible.
10. Wars and rumors of more wars continue, and let us not to forget to throw in a few historically nasty natural disasters onto the list.
11. More nations are trying to build wmds.
12. Europe’s economy is sliding into the tank, which has a profound impact on the USA.
13. We now have placed a debt upon our children that will make them slaves to money for decades to come, and that will be even longer if we do not stop.

There are more points that can be added. While the sky has not fallen, an awful lot of pain has, and it amazes me that people cannot SEE what is swirling all around us every single day. It is like the days leading up to Noah’s flood, people are oblivious thinking God will make it more obvious, that he will somehow bring fire and brimstone upon us.

How much more (and how much deeper) does our corporate pain need to get before people start realize we have taken a wrong direction?

 

[wynnejj]

Hmm, interesting response…

Gay marriage supporters have made their major push over the last decade or so…what have we seen during that time?

…

There are more points that can be added. While the sky has not fallen, an awful lot of pain has, and it amazes me that people cannot SEE what is swirling all around us every single day. It is like the days leading up to Noah’s flood, people are oblivious thinking God will make it more obvious, that he will somehow bring fire and brimstone upon us.

How much more (and how much deeper) does our corporate pain need to get before people start realize we have taken a wrong direction?

At first I thought, oh boy, Irishpatrick has gone off the deep end if he is trying to pin this on gay marriage supporters.

But then I thought, this blends very nicely into the way this discussion thread has detoured into Moral Psychology, and Jonathan Haight’s points about certain moral blind spots.

The beginning of Wisdom is Fear of the Lord. The Bible describes those without this fear as fools - not stupid, not ignorant. Fools!

The Western World based on Christianity has become nations of fools. We have glaring moral blindspots.

It all started with the idea of limiting family size and the acceptance of contraception.

Catholic Church takes up this issue and the verdict is … why not!

Pope Paul VI says … Thanks, but guided by the Holy Spirit, I beg to differ … Humanae Vitae.

This ruling is not accepted, contraception flourishes, casual sex flourishes and the slaughter of innocents ensues with hardly a prayer petition in defense.

All our efforts at Social Justice for the born backfire because we forget the unborn.

We are nations of fools who has lost our fear of the Lord.

It all started with the legitimization of the practice of mutual masturbation in marriage.

 

[irishpatrick]

At first I thought, oh boy, Irishpatrick has gone off the deep end if he is trying to pin this on gay marriage supporters.

But then I thought, this blends very nicely into the way this discussion thread has detoured into Moral Psychology, and Jonathan Haight’s points about certain moral blind spots.

The beginning of Wisdom is Fear of the Lord. The Bible describes those without this fear as fools - not stupid, not ignorant. Fools!

The Western World based on Christianity has become nations of fools. We have glaring moral blindspots.

It all started with the idea of limiting family size and the acceptance of contraception.

Catholic Church takes up this issue and the verdict is … why not!

Pope Paul VI says … Thanks, but guided by the Holy Spirit, I beg to differ … Humanae Vitae.

This ruling is not accepted, contraception flourishes, casual sex flourishes and the slaughter of innocents ensues with hardly a prayer petition in defense.

All our efforts at Social Justice for the born backfire because we forget the unborn.

We are nations of fools who has lost our fear of the Lord.

It all started with the legitimization of the practice of mutual masturbation in marriage.

Well said.

I believe we are seeing some consequences of our corporate moral decay.

 

[rossum]

Hmm, interesting response…

Gay marriage supporters have made their major push over the last decade or so…what have we seen during that time?

1. Two signicant wars with many thousands dead.
2. A significant drop in marriage rates.
3. A significant drop in babies being born.
4. The Catholic abuse crisis burst onto the world stage.
5. A housing crisis crushed the housing market in the USA.
6. Millions of jobs left for other nations.
7. The economy collapsed with literally trillions lost nearly overnight.
8. Trillions of borrowed money spent to try to avoid the pain of the collapse.
9. Jobs and the economy, despite all spending efforts, are still terrible.
10. Wars and rumors of more wars continue, and let us not to forget to throw in a few historically nasty natural disasters onto the list.
11. More nations are trying to build wmds.
12. Europe’s economy is sliding into the tank, which has a profound impact on the USA.
13. We now have placed a debt upon our children that will make them slaves to money for decades to come, and that will be even longer if we do not stop.

There are more points that can be added. While the sky has not fallen, an awful lot of pain has, and it amazes me that people cannot SEE what is swirling all around us every single day. It is like the days leading up to Noah’s flood, people are oblivious thinking God will make it more obvious, that he will somehow bring fire and brimstone upon us.

How much more (and how much deeper) does our corporate pain need to get before people start realize we have taken a wrong direction?

There is a logical fallacy called Post hoc ergo propter hoc. You would do well to look it up.

• The events you list all followed President George W Bush’s election in 2000. Those events are not due to the push for gay rights but due to the election of George W Bush.
• The events you list all follow the election of John Paul II to the papacy. Those events are not due to the push for gay rights but due to the election of John Paul II.

See what I mean? I can pick anything that happened before the events on your list, and blame things on whatever I pick. Maybe you being born is the cause of those events, after all, you were born before they happened.

rossum

 

[irishpatrick]

There is a logical fallacy called Post hoc ergo propter hoc. You would do well to look it up.

• The events you list all followed President George W Bush’s election in 2000. Those events are not due to the push for gay rights but due to the election of George W Bush.
• The events you list all follow the election of John Paul II to the papacy. Those events are not due to the push for gay rights but due to the election of John Paul II.

See what I mean? I can pick anything that happened before the events on your list, and blame things on whatever I pick. Maybe you being born is the cause of those events, after all, you were born before they happened.

rossum

Of course, I knew someone would take the route you have, and you are entitled to feel that way if you desire.

I think, if you consider what I am syaying, that the real message I am trying to impart is quite simple. Many, many people try to say ss-marriage MUST be acceptable and fine because the sky has not fallen (they even use those exact phrases), and I am merely saying that over the last 10-11 years things have been a huge mess–during the same period that the huge push for so-called gay rights have reached their peak. The mess we are in is not lessening, and one must ask, “if God does not want ss-marriage how would His displeasure manifest itself?”

In other words, what exactly would the naysayers proclaim to be a proper message?

 

[fix]

Yes. Medical experts make this assessment.

Based on what?

The definitions of pathology change with time. If you are referring to homosexuality, it was one considered pathological 50 years ago. There are many conditions which have changed over time in this way.

Why?

You have free will to adopt any religious or moral system. Which system will appeal to you or “make sense” to you is quite measurable along some of the traits studied in Moral Psychology. Not as a perfect predictor. But close. I bring it up because it is one way of looking at the differences here. Not THE definitive way.

What is the definitive way?

As I have repeated a couple of times. It is a synergy between our “hard wiring” and our environment, how we see that world. There appears to be much more to the hard wiring than was once thought. This is a new field of study. Nothing is definitive.

So, basically we have some academic-ish theories.

 

[cargau]

What do you think they will be?

Let’s imagine the Constitution is amended to allow for gay marriage. What will be the cultural and political consequences, and why do you think that these things would happen?

Hard to speculate objectively. What scares me is the extreme passion for self rather than others. Children seem to be the main casualty in modern issues whether it is abortion or gay marriage. I am not saying two gay men could not be caring parents. I just think, whenever possible children deserve a Mom and a Dad. At least that should be the social
model.

Sexual urges should not trump the fundamental needs of the child. They are human beings, too!

 

[irishpatrick]

What do you think they will be?

Let’s imagine the Constitution is amended to allow for gay marriage. What will be the cultural and political consequences, and why do you think that these things would happen?

I believe, as I listed above, that we are already seeing the consequences. I also feel that we will see the continued erosion of the family and of marriage.

The thing that strikes me is that so many people seem to think that unless God brings down fire and brimstone, that must mean God thinks ss-marriage (and many other things) are perfectly fine and just. It makes me realize how the people during the days of Noah’s Flood could have turned off their minds to what was going to happen to them–denial is a powerful, and typical human trait.

 

[rossum]

Of course, I knew someone would take the route you have, and you are entitled to feel that way if you desire.

…

In other words, what exactly would the naysayers proclaim to be a proper message?

You need to show the association, the actual causative link. There is a causative link between George W Bush’s presidency and the US invasion of Iraq, so it is reasonable to attribute the invasion of Iraq to that presidency. There is no causative link between Pope John Paul II and the US invasion of Iraq, so it is not reasonable to attribute the invasion to that Pope. Only the second is a case of the post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy.

You need to show us actual causative links, or your point becomes a logical fallacy. What is the causative link between the campaign for same sex marriage and the 9/11 attacks?

rossum

 

[wynnejj]

You need to show us actual causative links, or your point becomes a logical fallacy. What is the causative link between the campaign for same sex marriage and the 9/11 attacks?

The question should be “Is there a correlation between the sexual revolution in western society and the 911 attacks by eastern radicals?”. Trying to explain the correlation to those who embrace the sexual revolution is like trying to explain the advisability of dressing modestly so as not to arouse the male predator instinct to a woman who thinks the problem is strictly “their” fault. What we have is a clash of cultures. The eastern world fears the infection of the sexual revolution on the fabric of their society which is broadcast by an internet generation. They already are predisposed to believe that the western world is evil, and the sexual revolution is the most visible sign … and what is worse, the western world appears to be actively subverting their society to democracy with its “anything goes” culture. What IrishPatrick and I see is a repeat of the ingredients of the Babylonian exile … leading to an eventual WW III. After all, with western world on the verge of economic collapse, we are becoming ripe for the picking.

 

[irishpatrick]

You need to show the association, the actual causative link. There is a causative link between George W Bush’s presidency and the US invasion of Iraq, so it is reasonable to attribute the invasion of Iraq to that presidency. There is no causative link between Pope John Paul II and the US invasion of Iraq, so it is not reasonable to attribute the invasion to that Pope. Only the second is a case of the post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy.

You need to show us actual causative links, or your point becomes a logical fallacy. What is the causative link between the campaign for same sex marriage and the 9/11 attacks?

rossum

I understand what you are saying, and I understood it in your last post as well. You and I know that since we are talking about possible Divine actions, or possible inaction by the Divine, it is not possible to establish a direct and provable link.

It has always been that way. People were warned by Noah before the flood, they did not listen, and they most likely thought Noah was a flame throwing doomsayer. Yet, the flood happened, and sadly those people were washed away. Then, later, people claimed that the flood did not happen, or that it was only local, or that all the people were not washed away, or that God did not really warn the people–they go through all sorts of machinations to explain away the obvious.

Many Christians, Catholic and otherwise, have predicted negative results for the immoral direction our nation has taken (across many issues, not only ss-marriage). People supporting ss-marraige often laugh at those people and say they are just nutcases and doomsayers–and those supporters of ss-marriage demand inarguable proof that God has responded negatively to the directions we have taken. Yet., just as in the days of Noah, all sorts of truly horrific and historic things have happened before our very eyes, and yet somehow that is not supposed to count for anything.

Okay.

People say ss-marriage must be acceptable because the sky hasn’t fallen since Massachusetts legalized it in 2004. Yet, while the sky has not fallen, we are living through incredibly painful and troubled times with no relief or end in sight. The very fabric of our culture is being torn, and yet people say “the sky has fallen.”

 

[rossum]

People say ss-marriage must be acceptable because the sky hasn’t fallen since Massachusetts legalized it in 2004. Yet, while the sky has not fallen, we are living through incredibly painful and troubled times with no relief or end in sight. The very fabric of our culture is being torn, and yet people say “the sky has fallen.”

America is a good test case. Some states allow same sex marriage. Some states allow civil partnerships, but not same sex marriage. And some states allow neither. Assuming that God is doing some smiting, and that God can target his smiting exactly where He wants to, then you need to show actual differences among the three types of states.

You could also do the same among European countries, where laws differ from country to country.

Actual evidence please, showing exactly how God is targeting His wrath. For example, are we going to see an uptick in North Carolina after their recent vote?

rossum

 

[irishpatrick]

America is a good test case. Some states allow same sex marriage. Some states allow civil partnerships, but not same sex marriage. And some states allow neither. Assuming that God is doing some smiting, and that God can target his smiting exactly where He wants to, then you need to show actual differences among the three types of states.

You could also do the same among European countries, where laws differ from country to country.

Actual evidence please, showing exactly how God is targeting His wrath. For example, are we going to see an uptick in North Carolina after their recent vote?

rossum

You and I know that since we are talking about possible Divine actions, or possible inaction by the Divine, it is not possible to establish a direct and provable link.

It has always been that way. People were warned by Noah before the flood, they did not listen, and they most likely thought Noah was a flame throwing doomsayer. Yet, the flood happened, and sadly those people were washed away. Then, later, people claimed that the flood did not happen, or that it was only local, or that all the people were not washed away, or that God did not really warn the people–they go through all sorts of machinations to explain away the obvious.

Many Christians, Catholic and otherwise, have predicted negative results for the immoral direction our nation has taken (across many issues, not only ss-marriage). People supporting ss-marraige often laugh at those people and say they are just nutcases and doomsayers–and those supporters of ss-marriage demand inarguable proof that God has responded negatively to the directions we have taken. Yet., just as in the days of Noah, all sorts of truly horrific and historic things have happened before our very eyes, and yet somehow that is not supposed to count for anything.

Okay.

People say ss-marriage must be acceptable because the sky hasn’t fallen since Massachusetts legalized it in 2004. Yet, while the sky has not fallen, we are living through incredibly painful and troubled times with no relief or end in sight. The very fabric of our culture is being torn, and yet people say “the sky has fallen.”

**We are guilty on a corporate level, independeant of what each state does. **

 

[rossum]

You and I know that since we are talking about possible Divine actions, or possible inaction by the Divine, it is not possible to establish a direct and provable link.

I am aware of that, and I am not asking for a direct link. I am merely asking for evidence. Have unemployment rates changed? Is there a change in the rates of various diseases? Show me some evidence that God is specifically displeased with states/countries that favour same sex marriage, or civil partnerships, over those that do not.

**We are guilty on a corporate level, independeant of what each state does. **

So, every person on Earth is guilty of supporting same sex marriage because we are all, on a corporate level, inhabitants of Earth? Mmmm… Just like we’re all guilty of being Muslims because some of us are Muslims. The Pope is going to hell because he lives on that same planet as over one billion Muslims. Better tell him now, I’m sure he’d like to know in advance.

Your idea of collective guilt is ridiculous. Even worse than you earlier post hoc ergo propter hoc.

rossum

 

[irishpatrick]

I am aware of that, and I am not asking for a direct link. I am merely asking for evidence. Have unemployment rates changed? Is there a change in the rates of various diseases? Show me some evidence that God is specifically displeased with states/countries that favour same sex marriage, or civil partnerships, over those that do not.

So, every person on Earth is guilty of supporting same sex marriage because we are all, on a corporate level, inhabitants of Earth? Mmmm… Just like we’re all guilty of being Muslims because some of us are Muslims. The Pope is going to hell because he lives on that same planet as over one billion Muslims. Better tell him now, I’m sure he’d like to know in advance.

Your idea of collective guilt is ridiculous. Even worse than you earlier post hoc ergo propter hoc.

rossum

WE citizens in the USA are corporately guilty for allowing the great sins of our day. There is absolutely nothing new about corporate sin. However, it must be stressed that corporate sin can only happen with a series of personal sins. When we collectively make ourselves accomplices to a grave sin, we collectively become guilty of that sin.

Insults never help btw.

We see the response to corporate sin in fall in the fall in the Garden, in the actions God took upon Sodom and Gomorrah, the actions God took during Noah’s flood, and even during the fall of the Temple–twice. We also see the opposite, when an entire nation repents, as did Nineveh, God retracts the consequence of the corporate sin.

 

[wynnejj]

Most gay marriage advocates cite Massachusetts as indicators of the living proof of the nil effects on family life in the state. They will say that the divorce rate has actually dropped in that state.

What they mean is the number of divorces per 1,000 population. They don’t mean number of divorces in proportion to the number of marriages which is the common perception. So when we say that the divorce rate in the USA is about 50%, most people think of divorces divided by marriages.

Massachusetts… 2010 … 1990
Divorce Rate… 2.5 … 2.8
Marriage Rate… 5.6 … 7.9

From 1990 to 2010, the divorce rate has dropped from 2.8 to 2.5 … hooray for gay.
From 1990 to 2010, the divorce rate/marriage rate has increased from 35% to 45%.

Feel free to do the math …
Marriage Rates by State
Divorce Rates by State

The family is deteriorating because marriages are in serious decline due to the cumulative effects of the sexual revolution. The divorce to marriage ratio is increasing very, very significantly.

Gay marriage is about entitlements where no reasonable reason for entitlements on the basis of marriage is due. Massachusetts is a big entitlement state and we all know just how well Massachusetts and other big entitlement states are fairing.

 

[irishpatrick]

Most gay marriage advocates cite Massachusetts as indicators of the living proof of the nil effects on family life in the state. The will say that the divorce rate has actually dropped in that state.

What they mean is the number of divorces per 1,000 population. They don’t mean number of divorces in proportion to the number of marriages which is the common perception. So when we say that the divorce rate in the USA is about 50%, most people think of divorces divided by marriages.

Massachusetts… 2010 … 1990
Divorce Rate… 2.5 … 2.8
Marriage Rate… 5.6 … 7.9

From 1990 to 2010, the divorce rate has dropped from 2.8 to 2.5 … hooray for gay.
From 1990 to 2010, the divorce rate/marriage rate has increased from 35% to 45%.

Feel free to do the math …
Marriage Rates by State
Divorce Rates by State

The family is deteriorating because marriages are in serious decline due to the cumulative effects of the sexual revolution. The divorce to marriage ratio is increasing very, very significantly.

Gay marriage is about entitlements where no reasonable reason for entitlements on the basis of marriage is due. Massachusetts is a big entitlement state and we all know just how well Massachusetts and other big entitlement states are fairing.

Well done–I might borrow that. You are quite right, the decline began with the sexual revoltion and the agenda to neutralize the meaning of the two genders.

 

[wynnejj]

Well done–I might borrow that. You are quite right, the decline began with the sexual revoltion and the agenda to neutralize the meaning of the two genders.

What is really sad is that if the marriage rate decreases and the ratio of divorces to marriage increase among those who never or no longer co-habit, then it seems to fuel the argument for co-habit lifestyles. As more people no longer honor a lifetime promise, then it becomes increasingly hard to find a spouse who takes the vow seriously.

I know a woman who married, had four kids, had an unsatisfying relationship, the man died (but let’s say she dumped the man … to make my point), struck up a homosexual union with a female co-worker. Believe it or not, I know two men who each were married with one kid, and did a gender bender as their mid-life crisis.

With no-fault divorce and an SSM switch from hetero to homo-sexual unions, what is happening psychologically with the kids. I get it … now their head is on straight … because it’s legal and taught in schools despite those crazy religious nuts. Aaaahhhhhh!

 

[wynnejj]

Hey, gay marriage advocates!

How do you feel about a mid-life switch for kids from traditional to gay marriage household?

Where mom takes kids from dad into a new mom-mom marriage?

Where dad takes kids from mom into a new dad-dad marriage?

Pre-school kids? Grade school kids? Teenagers?

You think the kids will exhibit gay pride to their playmates?