Social Justice, but no politics?

[contentedself]

Where’s the good in that?

How do you expect to achieve social justice without a just government?

If the the ‘‘big’’ countries of the world came to the church for advice on the best system to run a country, what would be its answer?

Apart from legitimizing the status-quo, what does the church do to ensure social justice is enforced?

 

[Catmando]

Are you asking what sort of government policies would dispense the best social justice according to Catholic doctrine, basically?

 

[St_Francis]

Any form of government compatible with Christianity will work in a good Catholic country. None will work in a nation which ignores the Kingship of Christ.

 

[contentedself]

Are you asking what sort of government policies would dispense the best social justice according to Catholic doctrine, basically?

Yes. Does the church have a political theory that can be applied to solve today’s problems.

 

[Barbkw]

Mother Teresa in India, did not need the government of India to assist the poor.

She began her ministry with 5 rupees (45 rupees equals $1).

Mother Teresa had dedicated her entire life to serving the poor, the hungry and the destitute.

At the time of her death in 1997, her Missionaries of Charity operated 610 missions in 123 countries that included hospices, homes for those suffering from AIDS, leprosy and tuberculosis, orphanages and schools.

The Amish in Ohio are another example of Christian communities who work together to build and give.

 

[contentedself]

Any form of government compatible with Christianity will work in a good Catholic country. None will work in a nation which ignores the Kingship of Christ.

So a government not applying God’s law is an illegitimate government according to teachings of the Bible?

What do you mean by compatible with Christianity? Which aspect of Christianity? If the church has no political theory, how can a government be in any way compatible? compatible with what? the law of love your enemy? turn the other cheek?

what about a just financial system? Haven’t prophets from the beginning of time gone head on against those that charge usury? How has the church ever since its establishment continued this confrontation? Don’t our economic problems of today basically boil down to the usurious private banks making money out indebting the world?

Please tell me how the church is NOT legitimizing this status-quo.

 

[contentedself]

Mother Teresa in India, did not need the government of India to assist the poor.

She began her ministry with 5 rupees (45 rupees equals $1).

The Amish in Ohio are another example of Christian communities who work together to build and give.

So the church’s political theory comes down to assisting the poor.

That will be a short university course.

 

[Catmando]

Well, I certainly don’t know how exactly the Church would stand, but here’s my guess.

On the economic front: mixed economy, but leaning towards capitalism. Regulations and the like would be in place to assure the safety and well-being of workers and satisfactory production of goods. The Church has historically supported unions that ensure better treatement of workers, so I think it would be evident they want to continue the demands enforced by those early unions.

In terms of domestic policies, the Church would almost certainly support a return to traditional family life and family values that would be reflected in the laws; i.e., no same-sex marriages, no abortions, and so on. There would probably be an emphasis on charity work rather than welfare systems (and I think this would be nicer; better we all choose to donate money and/or help the poor directly than have the government mandate we hand over cash to support them, right?). I think the emphasis on egalitarianism would be toned down, though, or at least I hope it would be. That’s not to say I think the Church doesn’t support equal rights for people and such; rather, I think they think it’s obvious everyone deserves equal rights and all this special attention by the media to minority groups demanding more and more and more on top of their more on top of that more is a little silly.

In terms of foreign policy, I’m not entirely sure. I know the Church has the Just War doctrine, but that hasn’t applied to a war… what, 70 years?, so I think the Church’s recommendation would be a decrease in military spending and buildup and a bigger emphasis on negotiating rather than invading.

 

[ANNE_2]

For any meaningful discussion, we have to define the words.
Social justice is NOT communism, socialism, collectivism, or even pure capitalism.

CCC - " 1928 Society ensures social justice when it provides the conditions that allow associations or individuals to obtain what is their due, according to their nature and their vocation. Social justice is linked to the common good and the exercise of authority.

CCC - " 1907 First, the common good presupposes respect for the person as such.
In the name of the common good, public authorities are bound to respect the fundamental and inalienable rights of the human person.
Society should permit each of its members to fulfill his vocation.
In particular, the common good resides in the conditions for the exercise of the natural freedoms indispensable for the development of the human vocation, such as “the right to act according to a sound norm of conscience and to safeguard . . . privacy, and rightful freedom also in matters of religion.”

CCC - " 1894 In accordance with the principle of subsidiarity, neither the state nor any larger society should substitute itself for the initiative and responsibility of individuals and intermediary bodies."

 

[contentedself]

So in short, the Bible has no way of providing sufficient teachings for the learned scholars to derive political theories that can be applied in a theocracy from the time of Jesus, to this day and say in 1000 years?

God is Just, but He cannot provide humanity with a set of perfect impeccable divine laws so that they can sort out their differences, and live a happy and fruitful life in this world and the next?

Seriously?

 

[Barbkw]

So in short, the Bible has no way of providing sufficient teachings for the learned scholars to derive political theories that can be applied in a theocracy from the time of Jesus, to this day and say in 1000 years?

God is Just, but He cannot provide humanity with a set of perfect impeccable divine laws so that they can sort out their differences, and live a happy and fruitful life in this world and the next?

Seriously?

The Trinity did provide humanity a set of divine laws - they’re called the Ten Commandments and the Beattitudes.

CCC - " 1894 In accordance with the principle of subsidiarity, neither the state nor any larger society should substitute itself for the initiative and responsibility of individuals and intermediary bodies."

 

[Catmando]

So in short, the Bible has no way of providing sufficient teachings for the learned scholars to derive political theories that can be applied in a theocracy from the time of Jesus, to this day and say in 1000 years?

God is Just, but He cannot provide humanity with a set of perfect impeccable divine laws so that they can sort out their differences, and live a happy and fruitful life in this world and the next?

Seriously?

Matthew chapters 5 to 7.

 

[ANNE_2]

Getting back to the original question, the Church itself (those in Religious life) is not supposed to have any role in politics except to SAVE SOULS or for the FUNDAMENTAL RIGHTS of ALL MEN and then ONLY in accord with the Gospel (Mt, Mk Lk & Jn). (CCC 2245 & 2246)

Politics is the role of the Laity in the Catholic Church, and should be done in accord with the Doctrine of the Faith as defined in the “Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition” which references Holy Scripture.

I think this answers your question - about Social Justice and Politics and the Catholic Church.

Someone mentioned Matthew 5-7 in a response. I skimmed them for review. Jesus was talking to crowds of individuals or individuals. Teaching us individuals our responsibilites.
(He was not telling the Roman government what to do).

---

You did not ask about “Charity” in your questions.
CCC - " 1822 Charity is the theological virtue by which we love God above all things for his own sake, and our neighbor as ourselves for the love of God."

When taken with the definitions that already have been provided from the CCC in both posts of mine, Charity demands helping those who are unable to help themselves.
Physically and mentally disabled, the hungry, those needing clothing or shelter, other basic needs, etc.
We as individuals are commanded to love our neighbors and help the poor.
The government’s role is to assist in areas where we are not capable of doing it ourselves. - It starts with us, then local, then state, and the federal government as a last resort.
The Laity in government are to make this happen accordingly.

Local, State and Federal Governments do have a role to support the individual (as stated in my previous post).

Here is the kicker, as with all human beings, not all Catholics live according to their Faith. We are all sinners in some way or another. Every Catholic needs to read and use as a reference, Holy Scripture and the “Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition” for everything in our daily lives.

 

[contentedself]

Getting back to the original question, the Church itself (those in Religious life) is not supposed to have any role in politics except to SAVE SOULS or for the FUNDAMENTAL RIGHTS of ALL MEN and then ONLY in accord with the Gospel (Mt, Mk Lk & Jn). (CCC 2245 & 2246)

Politics is the role of the Laity in the Catholic Church, and should be done in accord with the Doctrine of the Faith as defined in the “Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition” which references Holy Scripture.

I think this answers your question - about Social Justice and Politics and the Catholic Church.

Someone mentioned Matthew 5-7 in a response. I skimmed them for review. Jesus was talking to crowds of individuals or individuals. Teaching us individuals our responsibilites.
(He was not telling the Roman government what to do).

---

You did not ask about “Charity” in your questions.
CCC - " 1822 Charity is the theological virtue by which we love God above all things for his own sake, and our neighbor as ourselves for the love of God."

When taken with the definitions that already have been provided from the CCC in both posts of mine, Charity demands helping those who are unable to help themselves.
Physically and mentally disabled, the hungry, those needing clothing or shelter, other basic needs, etc.
We as individuals are commanded to love our neighbors and help the poor.
The government’s role is to assist in areas where we are not capable of doing it ourselves. - It starts with us, then local, then state, and the federal government as a last resort.
The Laity in government are to make this happen accordingly.

Local, State and Federal Governments do have a role to support the individual (as stated in my previous post).

Here is the kicker, as with all human beings, not all Catholics live according to their Faith. We are all sinners in some way or another. Every Catholic needs to read and use as a reference, Holy Scripture and the “Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition” for everything in our daily lives.

Thanks for your reply. But I’m afraid to say that you’ve misunderstood the role of religion in our lives. But this is too big a topic to discuss on an online forum without proper introductions.

When I have some spare time I’ll try and shed some light on what I mean.

Peace to all

 

[ANNE_2]

Religion in our lives is that which is in Holy Scripture, and in the “CCC 2nd Ed”.

Perhaps we did not understand your question. It seemed to be about Catholic Church involvement in politics. Hence your title on a Catholic internet site.

Hope to hear from you soon.

 

[St_Francis]

So a government not applying God’s law is an illegitimate government according to teachings of the Bible?

The government would be legitimate but insofar as the laws of God were ignored, it would be bad.

We Catholics operate according to the teachings of the Church. Christ told the Apostles to go out and teach, so we don’t really talk about “the teachings of the Bible.”

What do you mean by compatible with Christianity?

The Church teaches that certain forms of government are incompatible with the nature of man and are therefore to be rejected. Socialism and communism both forbid the acquisition and ownership of property, so they are forms of government which would be incompatible with just about anything.

Additionally, these schools of thought deny God and the value of religion.

Which aspect of Christianity?

I’m not sure what you mean by this.

If the church has no political theory, how can a government be in any way compatible? compatible with what? the law of love your enemy? turn the other cheek?

The Church provides us with the sacraments and teaches us how to live according to God’s will and laws. It is not that God wants us to have this type or that type of government and no other, we can organize oirselves in one of several different forms. So you could say that the Church teaches us certain requirements for a government to be good. Some forms of government are in and of themselves bad.

Other forms of government are all right, and then you have to look at the individual government following that form. Is the monarch following the laws of Gos in carrying out his duties to his people? Does the government protect the weak fromthe unscrupulous and the more powerful? Etc.

And so in addition to the condemnations of socialism/communism, a free market system in which the government provides no protections for workers, consumers, etc, has also been condemned.

The Church takes a holistic view of things, balancing the various aspects of morality. It is good to turn the other cheek, but how good is it to allow another to turn and turn and turn when you could do something about it? And to put another person in the position of turning the other cheek is of course not good at all. So one cannot really ask according to which teaching, because using only one or a limited number of teachings would be imbalanced and not lead to the truth.

what about a just financial system? Haven’t prophets from the beginning of time gone head on against those that charge usury? How has the church ever since its establishment continued this confrontation?

A just financial system would contain certain features. The Church has always condemned usury, the charging of very high interest; however, when ecomony developed to the point at which simply having money was an advantage, when someone could invest money and thus if it were lent out one would lose the oportunity to invest, then a reasonable interest could be permitted in order that people who needed or wanted to borrow would be able to have access.

Don’t our economic problems of today basically boil down to the usurious private banks making money out indebting the world?

You are ignoring the fact that there are two parties to a loan: the lender, who may or may not be a bank, and the borrower.

Not all government loans originate in banks, so I will just refer to lenders. The lenders lent, but they did not force anyone to borrow. The borrowers wanted to get their hands on some money, no? so why are you blaming the lenders, who merely acted according to their business? Unless the lenders engaged in some sort of fraud or force, one cannot blame them for the fact that the governments went out and borrowed all that money rather than do the hard work of dealing with their shortfalls.

Please tell me how the church is NOT legitimizing this status-quo.

What problem with the status quo are you asking about?

 

[St_Francis]

Thanks for your reply. But I’m afraid to say that you’ve misunderstood the role of religion in our lives. But this is too big a topic to discuss on an online forum without proper introductions.

When I have some spare time I’ll try and shed some light on what I mean.

Peace to all

How do you know what the proper role of the Church is?

 

[St_Francis]

So the church’s political theory comes down to assisting the poor.

That will be a short university course.

The Church’s teachings on social issues are quite complex and deal with more than the care of the poor; however, I notice that your attention is more focused on political and financial institutions than it is on the role of the individual within society.

All these institutions are made up of individual people. The institution does nothing; it is the people within it which move things in one direction or another.

Moreover, we all all and each called upon to follow the will of God. If each and every person is oriented towards the good and following his or her own path in accodance with God’s will, then things will go smoothly.

It is when individuals within the institutions are not good that the institutions go bad, not the other way around.

So in short, the Bible has no way of providing sufficient teachings for the learned scholars to derive political theories that can be applied in a theocracy from the time of Jesus, to this day and say in 1000 years?

God is Just, but He cannot provide humanity with a set of perfect impeccable divine laws so that they can sort out their differences, and live a happy and fruitful life in this world and the next?

Seriously?

You seem to have the wrong idea of the role that religion plays in our lives. Maybe if you want to understand Catholic teaching on particular topics you wpuld like to get a better idea of the Catholic Church in general so you can have a foundation for your learning.

 

[St_Francis]

Here’s a short article about the Catholic Sources of the Declaration of Independence which may shed some light on the Catholic idea of types of government for you.

You may have learned in a government class that there are these forms of goveenment: monarchy/ tyranny, aristocracy/oligarchy, democracy/anarchy. The good form and the bad form. The Church does not recommend a good form but does point out what makes any of the forms good.

There is no particular form which is better than the others simply because we can’t really put in a form and expect the form to create justice. Justice comes from people.

If the people of the country are just and vote in or have as their leaders people who are just, then the nation will be just. If the people are just but the leaders are not just, then the nation will not be just. If the leaders are just but the people are not just, then the nation will not be just.

however, the justice must come from something other than the government. When leaders try to impose justice upon an unjust people, we have a bad situation because the unjust people will fight back. And we can see the tyranny involved ina just people with unjust leaders.

Hope you enjoy the article, I know I learned a lot from it!

 

[AmieLynn]

IMHO Religion has no place in politics! Politics has become so corrupt and rotten that to try and combine it with God’s holy rule is just tarnishing God’s words.