Social Justice: Is the Holy Father a Socialist? Is God a Socialist? Are Catholics Socialists?

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We Catholics are a minority in the United States and there are Americans that jump at every opportunity they can to accuse the Church of socialism, communism, Marxism, Leninism, etc.

Are we Catholics socialists or not? Were the early Christians socialists or not? Is Christ a socialist or not? What about when it comes to communism, Marxism, Leninism, etc?

For starters, I’m reading a 1937 encyclical by Pope Pius XI, and it’s a beautiful read. And it says:

“Man…is called to the hard sacrifice of his own ego to the common good.” (LINK)

This sounds pretty socialist, doesn’t it? Or no?

I’m pretty positive that the Catholic Church is anti-communist, but are we socialist? If not, how do I defend against the claims that the Catholic Church is socialist?
 
Why is that “socialist”? Because it contains the phrase “common good”? That’s just silly. I don’t know about official positions on any of this stuff, but I think it is silly to say that the Church is of this or that political persuasion. The Church is made up of millions of people around the globe of every political persuasion, and it is a bedrock of her day to day life in the world that she therefore beyond any such simple classification.

As far defending against such accusations, remember that when you are talking about the Church you are talking about the body of Christ. We are united therefore not by politics but by Jesus Christ.
 
I think in a lot of European countries such as Germany they have Christian Socialist parties. I would say that we don’t identify with the far left but left-middle although there are Catholics of every political background. Some people say anti-abortionists are right-wingers. In Catholic countries such as Spain the Church was identified with the right and fascism. Personally I think that Christ’s teaching do tend to the left although we are also asked to be good citizens and he doesn’t advocate political revolution.
 
The Catholic Church has condemned socialism.

Now, as it stands, in the US many Catholics are Democrats, and some are on the left side of that. Other Catholics would be Dems except for the abortion issue. However, that is their own personal decision. Other Catholics are conservative, and that too is their personal decision. In either case, neither party is aligned perfectly with Catholic social thinking, so we have to chose with our priorities.

It is true that we are called to keep our ego down to size. If we allow it to dominate us, we will commit many sins, which harms the common good. if we allow our ego to inflate, as Hitler did, then that pulls us away from God and His commandments, as it did with Hitler.

Remember that this encyclical was written in direct response to what was happening in Germany at that time. It is the only one which has been released in a vernacular, and the Pope had it sent, in German, to be read in the churches there so that each person would know what the Pope had said. This was all very unusual, but the Pope saw that there were huge problems looming…
 
Palm_Tree said:
We Catholics are a minority in the United States and there are Americans that jump at every opportunity they can to accuse the Church of socialism, communism, Marxism, Leninism, etc.

Are we Catholics socialists or not? Were the early Christians socialists or not? Is Christ a socialist or not? What about when it comes to communism, Marxism, Leninism, etc?

For starters, I’m reading a 1937 encyclical by Pope Pius XI, and it’s a beautiful read. And it says:

“Man…is called to the hard sacrifice of his own ego to the common good.” (LINK)

This sounds pretty socialist, doesn’t it? Or no?

I’m pretty positive that the Catholic Church is anti-communist, but are we socialist? If not, how do I defend against the claims that the Catholic Church is socialist?
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The short answer to the socialist question is a resounding NO!!!

We are NEVER to render unto Caesar what is God’s.
 
dzheremi said:
Why is that “socialist”? Because it contains the phrase “common good”? That’s just silly. I don’t know about official positions on any of this stuff, but I think it is silly to say that the Church is of this or that political persuasion. The Church is made up of millions of people around the globe of every political persuasion, and it is a bedrock of her day to day life in the world that she therefore beyond any such simple classification.

As far defending against such accusations, remember that when you are talking about the Church you are talking about the body of Christ. We are united therefore not by politics but by Jesus Christ.
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The Holy Father does take stands against certain political persuasions. For example, Pope Pius XI wrote three encyclicals condemning totalitarian regimes. In 1931, he promulgated Non Abiamo Bisogno which rebuked the Fascist regime of Benito Mussolini in Italy. In 1937, he promulgated Mit Brennender Sorge which rebuked Adolf Hitler and his Third Reich in Germany. That same year he promulgated Divini Redemptoris which rebuked Joseph Stalin and his Soviet Union in Russia.

Like I said above, the Church does take a stand against Marxist philosophy. For example:

Nor can the importance of the Catholic rejection of Marxist philosophy and atheistic Communism be forgotten

In accomplishing its specific task in service of the Roman Pontiff’s universal Magisterium,(70) the Congregation for the Doctrine of Faith has more recently had to intervene to re-emphasize the danger of an uncritical adoption by some liberation theologians of opinions and methods drawn from Marxism.

vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/encyclicals/documents/hf_jp-ii_enc_15101998_fides-et-ratio_en.html

But yes, when it comes to democratic societies like the USA, the Church praises them, saying “it is commendable that in today’s democratic societies…everyone is made a participant in directing the body politic. Such societies call for new and fuller forms of participation in public life by Christian and non-Christian citizens alike. Indeed, all can contribute, by voting in elections for lawmakers and government officials, and in other ways as well, to the development of political solutions and legislative choices which, in their opinion, will benefit the common good.” The Church says: “The Church recognizes that…democracy is the best expression of the direct participation of citizens in political choices.”

Of course, the Church teaches that Christians in democratic societies must “guided by a Christian conscience” when “fulfilling their civic duties” while “cooperating with other citizens according to their particular competence and responsibility.”

The Church lists some “moral principles that do not admit of exception, compromise or derogation,” some “fundamental and inalienable ethical demands” that Christians most be guided by while fulfilling their civic duties in a democratic society.

One of these is the “the development of an economy that is at the service of the human person and of the common good, with respect for social justice, the principles of human solidarity and subsidiarity.” (LINK)

In other words, the Catholic teaching on Social Justice. Which goes back to my original question, is the Catholic teaching on Social Justice socialist or not?
 
Palm_Tree said:
The Church lists some “moral principles that do not admit of exception, compromise or derogation,” some “fundamental and inalienable ethical demands” that Christians most be guided by while fulfilling their civic duties in a democratic society.

One of these is the “the development of an economy that is at the service of the human person and of the common good, with respect for social justice, the principles of human solidarity and subsidiarity.” (LINK)

In other words, the Catholic teaching on Social Justice. Which goes back to my original question, is the Catholic teaching on Social Justice socialist or not?
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The Church condemned socialism in iirc Rerum Novarum. Socialism does not take into account the priniciple of subsidiarity, nor does it respect human nature or the right to hold property.

However, the Church believes that people should pay taxes in support of the government. They are not free-market anarchists who hold that the requirement of paying taxes is theft.

So, as usual, the Church sees the immorality of excess *and *the immorality of lack. Just as courage has two vices: cowardliness and foolhardiness, so does government.

There are a wide range of government structures which fall in the area considered good, but there are those which do not; as Rerum Novarum states, socialism and communism are bad, but so too is *unbridled *capitalism. In all three systems, man takes second place to a lesser good, and this is wrong.
 
Pope JP II made my journey toward the Tiber much easier.

It was in the mid-80’s when the Iron Curtain was still in place and when military dictators dominated Latin America, I noticed something very important to me as a Christian.

The dictators were condemning the Church and especially some individuals like ABp. Romero of El Salvador as communists. At the same time the communists of the Warsaw Pact were condemning the Church as “Counter-revolutionary”.

I came to the conclusion that the Catholic Church must be getting it right.

Blessings,

Harri
 
Sailor_Kenshin said:
The short answer to the socialist question is a resounding NO!!!

We are NEVER to render unto Caesar what is God’s.
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Socialism is very secular in character, those who read Leo XIII’s writings on social policy will see that Catholicism and socialism are incompatible. Socialism is even incompatible with the traditional family, because it is so statist that it cannot abide any institutions that are separate from the state. So even social democrats aim to undermine family and church. Where possible drive the churches out of health and education or reduce church agencies to mere instruments of their political will. For the more radical, religion is a kind of social pathology that ought to be eliminated and certainly never encouraged.
 
St_Francis said:
The Church condemned socialism in iirc Rerum Novarum. Socialism does not take into account the priniciple of subsidiarity, nor does it respect human nature or the right to hold property.

However, the Church believes that people should pay taxes in support of the government. They are not free-market anarchists who hold that the requirement of paying taxes is theft.

So, as usual, the Church sees the immorality of excess *and *the immorality of lack. Just as courage has two vices: cowardliness and foolhardiness, so does government.

There are a wide range of government structures which fall in the area considered good, but there are those which do not; as Rerum Novarum states, socialism and communism are bad, but so too is *unbridled *capitalism. In all three systems, man takes second place to a lesser good, and this is wrong.
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What you call “unbridled capitalism” is something that has never existed, except as an attitude expressed by the likes of David Ricardo, an extreme form of liberalism that accepts the miseries of industrialism as inevitable. In a way, it is the other side of the coin of Marxism. Neither thinks of human beings except in economic terms.
 
RobbyS:

I don’t know where you are from, but I can certainly say that European Social Democrats are not anti-family or anti-church. Both institutions are alive and well in western Europe. In fact, the agenda of Social Democrats can be said to be more family friendly than that of the conservatives.

The SD’s support the idea of a living wage for work, and a job as being a basic right. Women who choose to stay at home and raise children need to be compensated because they do not use “day-care” etc. Health care is to be provided for everyone, especially children and the elderly.

This does not strike me as a particularly anti-Christian or anti-family agenda.
 
Harri_Laaksonen said:
RobbyS:

I don’t know where you are from, but I can certainly say that European Social Democrats are not anti-family or anti-church. Both institutions are alive and well in western Europe. In fact, the agenda of Social Democrats can be said to be more family friendly than that of the conservatives.

The SD’s support the idea of a living wage for work, and a job as being a basic right. Women who choose to stay at home and raise children need to be compensated because they do not use “day-care” etc. Health care is to be provided for everyone, especially children and the elderly.

This does not strike me as a particularly anti-Christian or anti-family agenda.
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The mere fact that the government is taking on these tasks instead of leaving them to the families and churches where they belong is anti-family and anti-church. Rather than turn to God when hard times hit, people turn to the government. Rather than work on their marriages when things are rough, the couple can turn to the government.

Christ said, Render unto Caesar what is Caesar’s, and unto God what is God’s.
 
Harri_Laaksonen said:
RobbyS:

I don’t know where you are from, but I can certainly say that European Social Democrats are not anti-family or anti-church. Both institutions are alive and well in western Europe. In fact, the agenda of Social Democrats can be said to be more family friendly than that of the conservatives.

The SD’s support the idea of a living wage for work, and a job as being a basic right. Women who choose to stay at home and raise children need to be compensated because they do not use “day-care” etc. Health care is to be provided for everyone, especially children and the elderly.

This does not strike me as a particularly anti-Christian or anti-family agenda.
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I think those are very sound observations, Harri. Unfortunately, thanks largely to government propaganda over the last hundred years, the distinction between socialism and social democracy is lost on Americans.
 
St_Francis said:
The mere fact that the government is taking on these tasks instead of leaving them to the families and churches where they belong is anti-family and anti-church. Rather than turn to God when hard times hit, people turn to the government.
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God doesn’t typically perform expensive life-saving medical procedures, nor does He ensure sufficient family leave is provided by employers.
 
DavidHume said:
I think those are very sound observations, Harri. Unfortunately, thanks largely to government propaganda over the last hundred years, the distinction between socialism and social democracy is lost on Americans.
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Excellent argument, David.
DavidHume said:
God doesn’t typically perform expensive life-saving medical procedures, nor does He ensure sufficient family leave is provided by employers.
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No it is true that He doesn’t, nor does anyone advocate relying on miracles.

But social democracy is not that different from socialism. In the latter, the companies are officially owned by the government, but in the former, while they are nominally owned by people, the government still has a lot of power over them. Which means that the government has too much power.

Yes, it is true that there is socialized medicine and so people can get life-saving procedures, but what about those diagnosed pre-natally with some sort of medical problem? How much pressure to abort will there be?

And what about the elderly? Already there are three countries in Europe which “allow” euthanasia, and a fourth is having discussions. Oregon, the only US state which permits euthanasia, has already refused to pay for medication for one woman that we know of.

And how’s the family leave thing going to work out? By making one class of people more expensive to hire, wow, think 1. people with families, 2. people with large families, 3. *Catholics, *the government will make it that much more difficult for those people who need work most to get a job. Which will of course then force that family to turn to God? no, to the *government *for help.

Believe me, you don’t want those kinds of decisions to be in the hands of the government; again, it goes against the principle of subsidiarity.
 
If I were a non-Catholic Christian, I would be looking to the Bible for my inspiration about “social justice”. A good place to look would be Jeremiah 7. It talks about social injustices that were liable to judgement. It enumerates social injustices as lack of care for the widow & orphan (the needy), injustices to the resident alien (the disenfranchised), pagan practices, strange god idolatry, and the slaughter of the innocents. There are mandates that are Do’s & Don’ts. No prescription is needed on how to Don’t, and no specific prescription is provided on how to Do, except that the community is not to neglect and then go to the temple as if their sacrifices are acceptable to God.

I don’t think that the Magisterium gets heavily involved in how to get it done. It is more concerned that we understand the vision of what needs to be done as an obligation.

Socialism & capitalism are only as flawed as the general morality of its people towards each other. No prescription is needed except to be vigilant to the need and act, either personally (faith-based charities) or collectively (government subsistence).
 
DavidHume said:
Yes, we could end up living in the hellish nightmares that are Denmark and the Netherlands. Or worse yet, Canada.
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Interesting article.

Funny that the suicide rates of the nations mentioned in the article as being happier than the US are all but one higher than ours.

Denmark…13.7
Finland…20.1
Netherlands…9.4
?
?
Canada…11.4
Switzerland…17.6
New Zealand…13.2
?
Belgium…21.1

USA…11.1

(from WHO Country Reports)

All of which is completely aside from the point that just because people are happy doesn’t mean they are acting in accordance with God’s will and Church teaching.
 
wynnejj said:
Socialism & capitalism are only as flawed as the general morality of its people towards each other.
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What does this mean?
No prescription is needed except to be vigilant to the need and act, either personally (faith-based charities) or collectively (government subsistence).
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You seem to be saying that either is morally acceptable, but the Church has condemned both socialism and communism.
 
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