Social justice vs. liberation theology

[mmyers]

Dear when energy companies and car companies are spending their money to convince you that they are “good on the environment” you can be most sure they are receiving pressure from outside sources because they are NOT eco-friendly. LOL…

And the govt always has to force them. We’ve been forcing them to up gas mileage for years and get rid of gas guzzlers. They do nothing voluntarily because it’s right, they are always forced to do it.

Ok, first off don’t call me dear. It is not appropriate. Secondly a few years ago hybrid cars were not availible to the public. We demanded a greener car and now they are everywhere. “We have been forcing them to…get rid of gas guzzlers for years”. On what planet? We have been demanding them up until recent increases in the price of gas and they have been making them to fill OUR wants. When we as a market have demanded greener products they are being made more availible. Name one government program that has forced car makers into being greener and been nearly as successful as the recent flood of green cars on the market due to an increased demand.

On one hand we have people accusing the car companies to only be about profit. So I make the suggestion that Yes, in fact they are about profit and so if we demand something they will make it to make a profit. What are you suggesting they are about? Their purpose is to make a profit (this benifits their shareholders, their employees)…what we demand is what they will make.

My brother is an aerospace engineer for GE. He is a manager on a project to make wind turbines, perhaps you have heard of them? There is such a demand for wind energy that they are not taking any new orders as they are booked for beyond 2012 and they feel like the technology will have changed too much by then. No government entity ‘forced’ them to do this. They want to make a profit so they are making a desired product. There isn’t some dark force out to get you it is simply suppy and demand in a free market and it is efficent.

 

[SpiritMeadow]

Ok, first off don’t call me dear. It is not appropriate. Secondly a few years ago hybrid cars were not availible to the public. We demanded a greener car and now they are everywhere. “We have been forcing them to…get rid of gas guzzlers for years”. On what planet? We have been demanding them up until recent increases in the price of gas and they have been making them to fill OUR wants. When we as a market have demanded greener products they are being made more availible. Name one government program that has forced car makers into being greener and been nearly as successful as the recent flood of green cars on the market due to an increased demand.

There has been a call for hybrid cars for at least 40 years. the car companies are finally responding because they have no alternative any more. People are not buying their cars. You need to look at the attempts made in congress year after year to hold the auto industry to stricter emission controls. they fight it every year and conservatives in the pay of big business continue to defeat the proposals.

My brother is an aerospace engineer for GE. He is a manager on a project to make wind turbines, perhaps you have heard of them? There is such a demand for wind energy that they are not taking any new orders as they are booked for beyond 2012 and they feel like the technology will have changed too much by then. No government entity ‘forced’ them to do this. They want to make a profit so they are making a desired product. There isn’t some dark force out to get you it is simply suppy and demand in a free market and it is efficent.

Your being condescending is no more appreciated I assure you. I agree, the high cost of oil is forcing a good many companies to look at alternative sources of energy. They are doing it out of self interest. They NEVER were willing to respond to the argument that our resources were being depleted and such would be necessary for that reason. They responded when it started costing them too much to use oil. Duh.

 

[SpiritMeadow]

Now tell me about Romania, Russia, Cuba, Venezuela, North Korea, East Germany, and so on.

When you concentrate power in the hands of a few – as you must to make “Liberation Theology” work – what keeps those few from becoming just like their predecessors?

Read George Orwell’s Animal Farm before replying.

Please cite evidence that to make Liberation theology work it requires a concentration of power in the hands of a few?

 

[vern_humphrey]

There has been a call for hybrid cars for at least 40 years. the car companies are finally responding because they have no alternative any more. People are not buying their cars. You need to look at the attempts made in congress year after year to hold the auto industry to stricter emission controls. they fight it every year and conservatives in the pay of big business continue to defeat the proposals.

Wait a minute! Are you telling me forcing people to build and buy hybrid cars didn’t work?

But when the customers started demanding them, the companies built them? The free market worked?!?!

And a brass band played “Whoda Thunkit!”

 

[vern_humphrey]

Please cite evidence that to make Liberation theology work it requires a concentration of power in the hands of a few?

Tell me how you break the power of those presently holding it? Tell me how you take property away from those who hold it and redistribute it.

 

[mmyers]

Wait a minute! Are you telling me forcing people to build and buy hybrid cars didn’t work?

But when the customers started demanding them, the companies built them? The free market worked?!?!

And a brass band played “Whoda Thunkit!”

I was just about to write the same thing.

Fourty years of congress trying to twist their arm did nothing and just a few years of consumer demand changed everything. The car companies are going to fight for their own interest-That is their job. We the people have to demand what is right and though free markets we are given more control. We must raise our children to respect the world that has been given to us by God, we must also teach them to serve their fellow man…their and our buying habits will follow and so will corporate America.

SpiritMeadow- you may be suprised at how similar our objectives are, even if our routes to get there couldn’t be more different.

 

[SpiritMeadow]

I was just about to write the same thing.

Fourty years of congress trying to twist their arm did nothing and just a few years of consumer demand changed everything. The car companies are going to fight for their own interest-That is their job. We the people have to demand what is right and though free markets we are given more control. We must raise our children to respect the world that has been given to us by God, we must also teach them to serve their fellow man…their and our buying habits will follow and so will corporate America.

SpiritMeadow- you may be suprised at how similar our objectives are, even if our routes to get there couldn’t be more different.

Perhaps, I have no idea really, but I do know that the American car companies did nothing and responded to no consumer demand until consumers stopped buying their cars and made foreign cars the number one selling vehicles. Then, wow, they decided they would jump on the hybrid bandwagon. They’re quickly learning that those huge cars aren’t selling now either. We just picked up a used bronco at a steal of a price. We use less than a tank of gas a month, and we need 4x4, and we got a truck that would have cost nearly twice as much 4 years ago, even adjusting for age and use. Nobody wants the gas guzzlers any more. That message hit the car companies so severely in the pocket that they finally capitulated.

A similar case exists with the energy companies. As long as they have no competitors to speak of, they will charge us through the roof. We can demand all we want, but until we have another source of energy, we are stuck with what they offer.

There are companies out there that see the big picture and do what is needed now. You read about them and see them featured now and then on 60 min. and other shows like that. I hear they get inundated by applications for employment after such a feature. Some do understand goinjg green. Others have to be forced to it.

 

[vern_humphrey]

Perhaps, I have no idea really, but I do know that the American car companies did nothing and responded to no consumer demand until consumers stopped buying their cars and made foreign cars the number one selling vehicles.

Wow! They didn’t respond to consumer demand until there was consumer demand.

Then, wow, they decided they would jump on the hybrid bandwagon. They’re quickly learning that those huge cars aren’t selling now either. We just picked up a used bronco at a steal of a price. We use less than a tank of gas a month, and we need 4x4, and we got a truck that would have cost nearly twice as much 4 years ago, even adjusting for age and use. Nobody wants the gas guzzlers any more. That message hit the car companies so severely in the pocket that they finally capitulated.

A similar case exists with the energy companies. As long as they have no competitors to speak of, they will charge us through the roof. We can demand all we want, but until we have another source of energy, we are stuck with what they offer.

There are companies out there that see the big picture and do what is needed now. You read about them and see them featured now and then on 60 min. and other shows like that. I hear they get inundated by applications for employment after such a feature. Some do understand goinjg green. Others have to be forced to it.

Gee – the market place works just like Adam Smith said it did.

 

[mmyers]

Perhaps, I have no idea really, but I do know that the American car companies did nothing and responded to no consumer demand until consumers stopped buying their cars and made foreign cars the number one selling vehicles. Then, wow, they decided they would jump on the hybrid bandwagon. They’re quickly learning that those huge cars aren’t selling now either. We just picked up a used bronco at a steal of a price. We use less than a tank of gas a month, and we need 4x4, and we got a truck that would have cost nearly twice as much 4 years ago, even adjusting for age and use. Nobody wants the gas guzzlers any more. That message hit the car companies so severely in the pocket that they finally capitulated.

A similar case exists with the energy companies. As long as they have no competitors to speak of, they will charge us through the roof. We can demand all we want, but until we have another source of energy, we are stuck with what they offer.

There are companies out there that see the big picture and do what is needed now. You read about them and see them featured now and then on 60 min. and other shows like that. I hear they get inundated by applications for employment after such a feature. Some do understand goinjg green. Others have to be forced to it.

I GET IT! What we have is a failure to communicate.

You are defining consumer demand as what consumer SAY (demanding) they want…we are defining consumer demand as what they BUY. Consumer Demand is an economic figure of speech that is basically saying that consumers speak with their wallets. We buy it and they make it, so if we want car companies or other big corporations to be more resposible we must ‘say’ that by buying more responsible products. If you go back and read some past entries it might all be a little clearer. We are just not speaking the same language.

 

[vern_humphrey]

I GET IT! What we have is a failure to communicate.

You are defining consumer demand as what consumer SAY (demanding) they want…we are defining consumer demand as what they BUY. Consumer Demand is an economic figure of speech that is basically saying that consumers speak with their wallets. We buy it and they make it, so if we want car companies or other big corporations to be more resposible we must ‘say’ that by buying more responsible products. If you go back and read some past entries it might all be a little clearer. We are just not speaking the same language.

Amen. “Consumer demand” means people put their money where their mouths are.

 

[SpiritMeadow]

I GET IT! What we have is a failure to communicate.

You are defining consumer demand as what consumer SAY (demanding) they want…we are defining consumer demand as what they BUY. Consumer Demand is an economic figure of speech that is basically saying that consumers speak with their wallets. We buy it and they make it, so if we want car companies or other big corporations to be more resposible we must ‘say’ that by buying more responsible products. If you go back and read some past entries it might all be a little clearer. We are just not speaking the same language.

Yes you get it. Vern as usual does not, reads everything superficially and then responds with one sentence that tries to make a joke. Consumers have asked for hybrid cars for better than 30 years. Car companies ignored it, because for most of that time, there were poor alternatives to american built cars. Buyers thus has no choice really but to accept what the companies were willing to offer. When that ceased to be true, buyers went elsewhere, and Detroit finally decided that it was costing them dearly for their intranscience. That is hardly a consumer driven market. But yes, I agree, we were defining things from two different prospectives. Now we are in sync.

 

[mmyers]

Yes you get it. Vern as usual does not, reads everything superficially and then responds with one sentence that tries to make a joke. Consumers have asked for hybrid cars for better than 30 years. Car companies ignored it, because for most of that time, there were poor alternatives to american built cars. Buyers thus has no choice really but to accept what the companies were willing to offer. When that ceased to be true, buyers went elsewhere, and Detroit finally decided that it was costing them dearly for their intranscience. That is hardly a consumer driven market. But yes, I agree, we were defining things from two different prospectives. Now we are in sync.

We have changed the face of Detroit by buying (demanding) hybrid cars…they would not had made them otherwise. I agree, the technology had to catch up with what consumers wanted, not only did they have to come up with the technology, but they had to make it at a pricepoint that Americans could afford. So in that sense the market did lag behind consumer demand. But when the price reached market equalibrium (a price we were willing to pay that the car companies were willing to sell it for) then there was a market explosion, but only because we were buying. It would not have mattered how much government was involved if consumers were not willing to ultimately buy the products.

I really believe that the only way to change the marketplace is to demand things with our wallets…we do not have to wait for government involvement and in fact we should not wait for it because there is a loss. It is kind of like when you play ‘telephone’, but when you go through too many government officals you not only lose part of the message, by the time everyone has taken their paycheck, you have lost a lot of tax money too.

 

[SpiritMeadow]

We have changed the face of Detroit by buying (demanding) hybrid cars…they would not had made them otherwise. I agree, the technology had to catch up with what consumers wanted, not only did they have to come up with the technology, but they had to make it at a pricepoint that Americans could afford. So in that sense the market did lag behind consumer demand. But when the price reached market equalibrium (a price we were willing to pay that the car companies were willing to sell it for) then there was a market explosion, but only because we were buying. It would not have mattered how much government was involved if consumers were not willing to ultimately buy the products.

I really believe that the only way to change the marketplace is to demand things with our wallets…we do not have to wait for government involvement and in fact we should not wait for it because there is a loss. It is kind of like when you play ‘telephone’, but when you go through too many government officals you not only lose part of the message, by the time everyone has taken their paycheck, you have lost a lot of tax money too.

I think we basically agree. One point i would make, Detroit is way further along in the technology that you realize. My father worked as a journeyman mechanic for 30 years at GM. He worked on models easily 3 years away from the assembly line. They have the technology, they just won’t budge unless made to. The problem as I see it, is that for as long as they were the only game in town, people as you say, cannot speak with their wallet

for better or worse, such has been the same problem with things like electricity and fuel. You got what was there, no choice.

 

[vern_humphrey]

I really believe that the only way to change the marketplace is to demand things with our wallets…we do not have to wait for government involvement and in fact we should not wait for it because there is a loss. It is kind of like when you play ‘telephone’, but when you go through too many government officals you not only lose part of the message, by the time everyone has taken their paycheck, you have lost a lot of tax money too.

Amazing how that simple idea – demanding things with our wallets – is so difficult for some people to grasp.

 

[mapleoak]

They have the technology, they just won’t budge unless made to.

Why on earth would they make something that there is no consumer demand for? That would be absurd.

 

[mapleoak]

Consumers have asked for hybrid cars for better than 30 years. Car companies ignored it, because for most of that time, there were poor alternatives to american built cars.

Hmm, guess this means consumer demand was for American built cars.

Buyers thus has no choice really but to accept what the companies were willing to offer.

Sure, if a company was aware of a substantial consumer demand and chose to ignore it, how dumb a business decision would that be. It is more plausible to believe that there wasn’t sufficient consumer demand to make it worthwhile.

When that ceased to be true, buyers went elsewhere, and Detroit finally decided that it was costing them dearly for their intranscience. That is hardly a consumer driven market.

Here your first sentence is at odds with your second sentence.

 

[vern_humphrey]

Hmm, guess this means consumer demand was for American built cars.

Sure, if a company was aware of a substantial consumer demand and chose to ignore it, how dumb a business decision would that be. It is more plausible to believe that there wasn’t sufficient consumer demand to make it worthwhile.

Here your first sentence is at odds with your second sentence.

I often bemoan the fact that we don’t teach economics in high school.

 

[SpiritMeadow]

Why on earth would they make something that there is no consumer demand for? That would be absurd.

HUH?

 

[SpiritMeadow]

Hmm, guess this means consumer demand was for American built cars.

Sure, if a company was aware of a substantial consumer demand and chose to ignore it, how dumb a business decision would that be. It is more plausible to believe that there wasn’t sufficient consumer demand to make it worthwhile.

Here your first sentence is at odds with your second sentence.

I’m afraid you’ve gotten totally confused somewhere along the line.

 

[mapleoak]

HUH?

Again. Why on earth would they make something that there is no consumer demand for? That would be absurd.

I’m afraid you’ve gotten totally confused somewhere along the line.

I’m afraid you are correct. I have gotten totally confused at how you came to that conclusion. I will paraphrase for you maybe to help clear your confusion: To think that any company would build with intent to sell an unmarketable product is insane.