Socialism - a simple experiement....He failed the whole class

[triumphguy]

I don’t know, socialist seems quite right to me.

You guys have never lived through a socialist Government.

I have: Britain in the 1970’s.

What you have in the USA is not socialist - it’s kinda pink tinged and middle of the road.

You might not like it, but it is not socialist.

 

[Mark121359]

You guys have never lived through a socialist Government.

I have: Britain in the 1970’s.

What you have in the USA is not socialist - it’s kinda pink tinged and middle of the road.

You might not like it, but it is not socialist.

Robbing Peter to pay Paul. What’s the difference. Certainly headed down the path that’s for certain. Pro golfer Phil Mickelson claims he pays 63 cents on the dollar to the government. If true, no matter how you slice it that’s criminal!

 

[Iron_Donkey]

What about Canada is so horrific? Our freedoms, our Universal Health Care, our excellent schools, our low crime rates, our high gun-ownership/low gun violence rates, our economy which is probably the most stable of the western democracies, our high standard of living, or vast amounts of clean and fresh water, our untapped mineral reserves or our wilderness expanse?

Sorry, I didn’t mean to come across as saying that Canada is a horrible place. There are things I’ve read about your government doing up there that really get on my nerves, but frankly the same thing happens down here as well. And everywhere else. Such is life.

All I meant to imply was that the idea that it’s possible for lefty policies and ideals to become so entrenched that all the “conservatives” do is refrain from pushing leftwards quiet so hard as the “liberals” is disconcerting for those of us who favor smaller governments.

 

[Iron_Donkey]

The President’s healthcare ideas are similar to Canada, in trying to give medical care to all, but not even as “extreme” as Canada. Do we call Canada socialist? Maybe we do. But in this case, the word “socialist” has a positive connotation, yes? Whereas I think the writer of the fable meant it as a negative?

Depends on if you think this way of spreading healthcare around is positive or not. I would say no. I’m hesitant about calling people socialists, but I do think universal healthcare achieved in this way is not good.

 

[Gorgias]

Now - I will issue the caveat that this comes from Facebook and may never have actually occurred or perhaps did occur but has been embellished…Who knows??
But it IS a good “parable” whether historically true or not and so I share it here for possible comment…

If it’s fiction, I can’t say for sure where they got it…

…but it sure sounds a whole lot like the way that Pirsig describes the notion of ‘quality’ within the context of an undergrad class that he taught, in his Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance.

Now, I haven’t looked at that book in almost thirty years… but that’s my recollection.

 

[triumphguy]

Robbing Peter to pay Paul. What’s the difference. Certainly headed down the path that’s for certain. Pro golfer Phil Mickelson claims he pays 63 cents on the dollar to the government. If true, no matter how you slice it that’s criminal!

He needs a new accountant!

And he certainly isn’t paying 63 cents on every dollar - maybe in the highest bracket.

In the 70’s the tax rate in Britain was 80% for the super rich - which is why so many British pop and rock stars moved to the United States. Now you’ve got Madonna and others living in England.

 

[St_Francis]

What about Canada is so horrific?..

The freezing cold!!! brrrr. I feel cold just thinking about it!

 

[JRKH]

Robbing Peter to pay Paul. What’s the difference. Certainly headed down the path that’s for certain. Pro golfer Phil Mickelson claims he pays 63 cents on the dollar to the government. If true, no matter how you slice it that’s criminal!

He needs a new accountant!

And he certainly isn’t paying 63 cents on every dollar - maybe in the highest bracket.

In the 70’s the tax rate in Britain was 80% for the super rich - which is why so many British pop and rock stars moved to the United States. Now you’ve got Madonna and others living in England.

TG,
While I cannot speak to the accuracy of “63 cents on the dollar”, I do need to point out that income tax is only one of the taxes on each of our dollars. Some others are:
Sales tax on all purchases except food (about 7% where I live)
Fuel tax (I believe it is over 40c on each gallon of gasoline)
Property taxes (based on the property’s value - over 2K per year for me)
Social Security Tax - yes we may see some of that back later (one can only hope)
Various registration “fees” such as license plates for vehicles etc.

Of course not all of these effect every dollar but they do drive up the overall percentage of taxes paid on each dollar one earns.

Peace
James

 

[DaveBj]

TG,
While I cannot speak to the accuracy of “63 cents on the dollar”, I do need to point out that income tax is only one of the taxes on each of our dollars. Some others are:
Sales tax on all purchases except food (about 7% where I live)
Fuel tax (I believe it is over 40c on each gallon of gasoline)
Property taxes (based on the property’s value - over 2K per year for me)
Social Security Tax - yes we may see some of that back later (one can only hope)
Various registration “fees” such as license plates for vehicles etc.

Of course not all of these effect every dollar but they do drive up the overall percentage of taxes paid on each dollar one earns.

Peace
James

You forgot state and local income taxes. I can believe that, counting all the taxes he pays, he could be keeping only about 37% of his gross income.

 

[Mark121359]

TG,
While I cannot speak to the accuracy of “63 cents on the dollar”, I do need to point out that income tax is only one of the taxes on each of our dollars. Some others are:
Sales tax on all purchases except food (about 7% where I live)
Fuel tax (I believe it is over 40c on each gallon of gasoline)
Property taxes (based on the property’s value - over 2K per year for me)
Social Security Tax - yes we may see some of that back later (one can only hope)
Various registration “fees” such as license plates for vehicles etc.

Of course not all of these effect every dollar but they do drive up the overall percentage of taxes paid on each dollar one earns.

Peace
James

And that’s an excellent point James. Maybe that’s what he meant. All of these things factored together. Either way, if true that’s pretty steep!

Peace, Mark

 

[Mark121359]

You forgot state and local income taxes. I can believe that, counting all the taxes he pays, he could be keeping only about 37% of his gross income.

Isn’t that sad. I mean, here’s a guy who has tremendous talent on the golf course. He wins a tournament with his skill and talent, and then the government says “Hey Phil, give ***us ***63% and you keep what’s left.” And a whole lot of people in this country are A-OK with this. They figure he’s rich, he can afford it. And the scary part is that they’re looking for new ways to get even more! And many are A-OK with that as well.

 

[JRKH]

You forgot state and local income taxes. I can believe that, counting all the taxes he pays, he could be keeping only about 37% of his gross income.

Wow - “Duh” on my part…Can’t believe I forgot those two…:blushing:

I suppose that it would be fairly easy, if one were so inclined, to make a pretty fair guesstimate of their total tax burden…especially if one tracks their spending over the year. And now might actually be a good time for such an exercise as many people are thinking about taxes (in the U.S.)

How much does one make?
How much taken in direct income taxes? (Fed/State/local)
How much is spent on food and prescription drugs/medical etc. (not taxed)
How much is spent on fuel? (extra tax)
Then there is ;
Property tax (even if you rent some portion pays the owners tax)
Sales tax
Various user fees like vehicle registrations etc.

I believe some areas even charge sales tax on services - not just on parts but on the labor charged - though I’m not sure how widespread that is.

I think many people would be surprised at how much “tax” they pay on a given dollar.

In fact…while the article is from 1992 and certain details may have changed…THIS ARTICLE gives some pretty interesting information.
And as reference to Phil Michelson’s comment…take a look at the “self employment” aspect on this.

Peace
James

 

[triumphguy]

We have a symbolic “tax freedom day” in Canada - it;s the day when most taxpayers (symbolically) get to keep the money they earn - it’s usually in June. Until that day **all **our money goes in taxes.

In other words, half of our income goes to all forms of taxes.

Tax freedom day for companies is MUCH earlier.

huffingtonpost.ca/2013/01/29/corporate-taxes-canada-tax-freedom-day_n_2571908.html

 

[DaveBj]

snip

How much is spent on food and prescription drugs/medical etc. (not taxed)

snip

Don’t forget that in some states (like Alabama ) food and OTC medications are taxed.

 

[TimeEntrance]

Depends on if you think this way of spreading healthcare around is positive or not. I would say no. I’m hesitant about calling people socialists, but I do think universal healthcare achieved in this way is not good.

Some economist at school once briefly explained it to me, but I forget.

Basically, what I got out of it, by the President mandating everyone have health insurance it lowers the cost overall.

 

[JRKH]

We have a symbolic “tax freedom day” in Canada - it;s the day when most taxpayers (symbolically) get to keep the money they earn - it’s usually in June. Until that day **all **our money goes in taxes.

In other words, half of our income goes to all forms of taxes.

So you are in roughly the same boat as we are. I think the article I linked gave early May as “Tax Freedom Day” in the U.S. - but that was in 1992. I don’t know what the date might be this year.

Tax freedom day for companies is MUCH earlier.

huffingtonpost.ca/2013/01/29/corporate-taxes-canada-tax-freedom-day_n_2571908.html

Yes it is a bit different for companies as their tax structures are more complicated…Plus - in some places, they keep business taxes low so that they don’t leave. Thus they keep people employed…and the government taxes the employees more sharply - or supply fewer services.
Unless of course you are the federal Government - then you can just spend more than you make - over and over…

Peace
James

 

[TimeEntrance]

TG,
While I cannot speak to the accuracy of “63 cents on the dollar”, I do need to point out that income tax is only one of the taxes on each of our dollars. Some others are:
Sales tax on all purchases except food (about 7% where I live)
Fuel tax (I believe it is over 40c on each gallon of gasoline)
Property taxes (based on the property’s value - over 2K per year for me)
Social Security Tax - yes we may see some of that back later (one can only hope)
Various registration “fees” such as license plates for vehicles etc.

Of course not all of these effect every dollar but they do drive up the overall percentage of taxes paid on each dollar one earns.

Peace
James

You pay property tax if you pay mortgage. And property taxes fund the infrastructure of cities like paving roads, paying police and fire fighters wages, paying for public schools.

Property taxes also help keep rich people segregated from everyone else. Otherwise… more carpenters and public school teachers might be living in wealthier areas. Having to pay $30,000 a year in property tax keeps them out.

Similar with condo fees. If you buy a luxury condo with 5,000 or more square feet then you can expect you’re condo fees are going to be pretty high. You can purchase former apartment buildings for inexpensive condos in more lower income areas of Milwaukee for as low as $25,000 or maybe even $10,000 between 300 to 1,000 square feet. What condo fees you’ll pay will be pathetically low. It’s about choices. Like the well-to-do always like to say.

Not to bash Mike Tyson but earning $300 million dollars over the course of your career and going in debt for around $600 million which you can’t pay right off, is a matter of personal choices on how to spend their money, and not a matter of the poor screwing people over.

Even if you have $2 billion in cash wealth you can blow through that or go over it in debt depending on how you spend it. Look at that former mayor in California that gambled and won a billion dollars but gambled enough more that she incurred debt greater than a billion.

What you pay in taxes at some point means a lot less on your material quality of life than what you can afford. What the rich complaining over taxes express is what psychologist have noted about human beings. Even with gamblers. Especially with gamblers. But all humans suffer this vulnerability and weakness too. And that is… a person is driven to far greater psychological torment by the repeating idea in his/her head he/she could have had more. Winning $100 million is enough to people if they think that is all they could have won, or their chances of winning even less were far greater. But if he or she wins $100 million but finds out they could have (or thinks they could have) won $1 billion dollars then they become psychologically tormented.

I’m driven by greed. I am. I want money and luxury. But I’ve spent so many years at the bottom of society that even attaining the top of the bottom looks great to me. Or at least I know it could be much worse. Gratitude.

And with that in mind I can live like a pimp off of $300 million. Rest assure off of that. I don’t need a mansion with 30 bathrooms sitting on so many acres of land you need to hire an army to take care of it. I can live like a pimp in luxury with a condo or home with 3 or 4 bathrooms in it. I don’t need a half million dollar car or million dollar car either. I can live in luxury pimpish style with $69,000 Hyudai Equus 2014.

If I’m worth $2 billion here’s what I can live pimpish off by having more than one place to live.

Either one of these condos:

(a) luxuryportfolio.com/property/milwaukee/dynamic_downtown_locale.cfm

(b) luxuryportfolio.com/property/milwaukee/stunning_new_construction_penthouse.cfm

And one of these houses but not both:

(c) luxuryportfolio.com/property/whitefish_bay/magnificent_lake_michigan_tudor.cfm

(d) luxuryportfolio.com/property/river_hills/transformed.cfm

I’d probably go with the English Tudor.

I can buy me a house in the inner-city for $20,000 or $70,000 if I wanted to too. Pay maybe $1,500 or less a year in property tax. That way I could drink beer on the porch with hoodlums with guns, watching scantly dressed young women walk by.

 

[JRKH]

You pay property tax if you pay mortgage. And property taxes fund the infrastructure of cities like paving roads, paying police and fire fighters wages, paying for public schools.

Yes property taxes go to pay for many worthwhile things. No question about it.

However - paying a mortgage is not the ONLY time you pay property taxes. My mother’s house is paid for…she still pays property tax. The owner of an apartment building must pay property tax and so rolls that expense into the rents charged to his tenants. Therefore the tenants are the ones paying property taxes.

But - - -

The point in bringing up the other taxes was in relation to the comment, supposedly made by Phil Michelson, that he paid 63c of each dollar to the government.

Not sure what the rest of your post was about…didn’t really seem related to the topic…

Peace
James

 

[Iron_Donkey]

Some economist at school once briefly explained it to me, but I forget.

Basically, what I got out of it, by the President mandating everyone have health insurance it lowers the cost overall.

I don’t know about over all, but I do know that every single person I’ve talked to is having to pay more.

 

[St_Francis]

Some economist at school once briefly explained it to me, but I forget.

Basically, what I got out of it, by the President mandating everyone have health insurance it lowers the cost overall.

Theoretically, the more people who are in a pool, the more the costs of those who are sick are spread out, and therefore the lower the premiums for everyone involved.

However!!! Medical costs are going up because of new taxes on equipment, and because people on Medicare have to rely more on private supplemental insurance (and under Patient Affordability, altho the cost of the eldery is six times more than the costs of the young, the cost of their insurance cannot exceed three times what the young are charged), and the more every-day stuff insurance covers, the more people use it, and the more insurance is mandated to cover (28-day rehabs, anyone?), the more the premiums go up, and the less people are looking out for costs, the more they go up, and … … …

So really, this was a totally lousy, crummy plan which could not have even been expected to do what they said it would do, and when you start getting into the details, the stuff they had to pass the bill so we could find it out, it starts looking downright malevolent.