Socialism and Christianity

[Abu]

jonathan_hili #78
Certainly many argue for some kind of redistribution to equalise wealth, and in certain respects, I don’t think the Church is opposed to this, e.g. taxing the rich more than the poor, then returning this wealth to the poor through some form of welfare.

Taxing “the rich more than the poor” (if “the poor” are taxed at all) has always been part of wise Catholic social teaching. That is precisely why it is essential to know that the “form of welfare” known as “State Welfare” is not acceptable except as severely limited as taught by Bl John Paul II.

From Bl John Paul II in Centesimus Annus, 1991:
#48. “Another task of the State is that of overseeing and directing the exercise of human rights in the economic sector. However, primary responsibility in this area belongs not to the State but to individuals and to the various groups and associations which make up society. The State could not directly ensure the right to work for all its citizens unless it controlled every aspect of economic life and restricted the free initiative of individuals. This does not mean, however, that the State has no competence in this domain, as was claimed by those who argued against any rules in the economic sphere. Rather, the State has a duty to sustain business activities by creating conditions which will ensure job opportunities, by stimulating those activities where they are lacking or by supporting them in moments of crisis."

‘In recent years the range of such intervention has vastly expanded, to the point of creating a new type of State, the so-called “Welfare State”. This has happened in some countries in order to respond better to many needs and demands, by remedying forms of poverty and deprivation unworthy of the human person. However, excesses and abuses, especially in recent years, have provoked very harsh criticisms of the Welfare State, dubbed the “Social Assistance State”. Malfunctions and defects in the Social Assistance State are the result of an inadequate understanding of the tasks proper to the State. Here again the principle of subsidiarity must be respected: a community of a higher order should not interfere in the internal life of a community of a lower order, depriving the latter of its functions, but rather should support it in case of need and help to coordinate its activity with the activities of the rest of society, always with a view to the common good.’

Papal Freedom Regression?
by Donald Devine
Issue 137 - August 5, 2009
“Benedict identifies liberty’s components as the individual and the freely established groupings he or she creates, which freedom remains inalienable even within the state, very much including the democratic welfare state.
“Subsidiarity is first and foremost a form of assistance to the human person via the autonomy of intermediate bodies. Such assistance is offered when individuals or groups are unable to accomplish something on their own, and it is always designed to achieve their emancipation, because it fosters freedom and participation through assumption of responsibility. Subsidiarity respects personal dignity by recognizing in the person a subject who is always capable of giving something to others. By considering reciprocity as the heart of what it is to be a human being, subsidiarity is the most effective antidote against any form of all-encompassing welfare state.”
tinyurl.com/3zdzbwm

This accurately reveals subsidiarity and unalienable freedom as essential, against a “welfare state”.

 

[Ion]

I think that capitalism is somehow intrinsic to christian thinking; what about the Chinese, who sent an armada of 30000 people on 1000 vessels to “discover” other kingdoms/worlds and to prove to them how great their emperor was; then another emperor destroyed all the archives of the voyage because was unable to do the same…compare with Columbus with 100 people on 3 vessels…

 

[tonyrey]

Absolutely – Christ’s parable of the Talents most strikingly acknowledges Jesus Christ’s respect for the work of business.

“We can thus say that Catholic tradition views entrepreneurial work as alert to information; discovers new possibilities in the market place; engages the factors of production in a large enterprise; looks for profit as a compensation for the risks undertaken in engaging the factors of production; is characterized by the creation and sustaining of relationships; and intends to develop and maintain the common good.”
Entrepreneurship in the Catholic Tradition, Fr Anthony G Percy, Lexington Books, 2010, p 81-82].

There are two Americas. The article points out that business is obsessed with profit and **not **the common good. Greed and selfishness have produced the law of the jungle in our society where one third of the world are living in poverty and misery.

 

[Ion]

There are two Americas. The article points out that business is obsessed with profit and **not **the common good. Greed and selfishness have produced the law of the jungle in our society where one third of the world are living in poverty and misery.

More like 3/4…
Greed and selfishness are sins, and are not something specific to capitalism/socialism

 

[Abu]

tonyrey #81
Greed and selfishness have produced the law of the jungle in our society where one third of the world are living in poverty and misery.

Those vices have always been part of fallen human nature from Adam and Eve. Free enterprise with worthy individuals has helped overcome much of poverty.

Face Reality.

Free enterprise is precisely what has enabled untold millions to escape from poverty. Without the great contribution of the Industrial Revolution, sparked by Catholic economic and social thought and action in the West, we would still be eking out an existence as before that development. Catholic teaching, especially social teaching outlines the morality of this interaction. It is the economic approach that has revolutionised the standard of living of billions.

The Catholic tradition is to encourage formation in skills and the virtue of work while helping a society to help themselves as Fr James V Schall, S.J., in *Does Catholicism Still Exist?, *Alba House 1994, p 184-185, explains:
“Since the Catholic Church wants poverty confronted, since She wants this confrontation to be done justly and with the interest and cooperation of the workers and the poor, She has had to acknowledge, as did the socialist systems themselves, that there are certain ways that must be employed if mankind is to meet its economic problems. These ways can be known and imitated, but they must include a juridical system, profit, enterprise, knowledge, exchange, a market, voluntary organisations, a relatively independent economy, private property, and respect for work and excellence.”

See: povertycure.org/voices/george-ayittey/
George Ayittey, an African entrepreneur, met Bono in 2007 and gave the rock star a copy of his book, Africa Unchained: The Blueprint For Development. Some of it must have taken hold, as Bono has come to acknowledge that foreign aid is merely a “stopgap” for poverty, not a realistic solution.
See: blog.acton.org/archives/58688-bono-affirms-that-capitalism-alleviates-poverty-more-than-aid.html

See: blog.independent.org/2013/08/12/bono-capitalism-takes-more-people-out-of-poverty-than-aid/

**Do Christians Love Poverty?
August 16, 2013
Insisting that the only thing the poor need is bread consigns them to a world without signs of transcendence.
James V. Schall, S.J.**Extract:
‘Much of world poverty has in fact been reduced or alleviated, as a recent essay in *The Economist *has shown. Christians often seem not to know that this change has happened or why it happened.’

Further, between 1990 and 2010, their number fell by half as a share of the total population in developing countries, from 43% to 21%—a reduction of almost 1 billion people.
tinyurl.com/ldjt6go

 

[lapis_lazuli]

Has anyone read anything on Tostoy’s idea of Christian Anarchism? It is something I came across not long ago, but I haven’t really probed it beyond the surface yet. It seems to be relevant to this thread.

 

[christofirst]

I know that Dorothy Day, Peter Maurin, and the Catholic Worker movement embraced principles of Christian Anarchy, but I do not know all that much about the idea or philosophy as expressed by Tolstoy. As much as I admire their idealism and tenacity, I am not willing to go to the radical extremes that they did.

 

[Bob123Q]

Quite frankly as I do reasearch I side with a religous center labour theory of value
yet I found a statment in a book which quite well buts me in my place and here it goes

marxian doctren claims that capitilism will cause imperilism and wars and slavery over money and profits. Every one knows that every war had something to do with money so every seems to thinks that marxian ecominic way of looking at things is right for they can see money moving the world yet no one but an economist and historiaan who is educated could truly know if the world wars and even claims about wars in the middle east today where started for other reason or just for profit.

Think about it every thing around us could be some sort of capitilist plot or some secret plot that they capitilist elite only know about (the war in Iraq, big buisness coperations, world war 2, the assination of J F K) and thats just it it all could be. Good thing we are all not that easly lied to about everyhting simply because we know about these things yet do not understand them fully.

Any one can make up a capitlist plot out of now where. it take some one who knows what they are talking about to explain why capitilism can turn social and form pensions and labour unions and hopefully go even futher than that in the futture.

NO i should not have commented what I do not really know
captillism and comunism are both denied in the catichism
My politically veiw the now is love of God first and laws will be added onto that

 

[Charlemagne_III]

The Magisterium says it is.

Leo XIII asserts: “…the socialists, working on the poor man’s envy of the rich, are striving to do away with private property, and contend that individual possessions should become the common property of all, to be administered by the State or by municipal bodies.” Rerum Novarum, #4].

Pius XI who declared emphatically in Quadragesimo Anno, 1931, #120: “Religious socialism, Christian socialism, are contradictory terms; no one can be at the same time a good Catholic and a true socialist.”

Similarly John Paul II condemns socialism for precisely this among other errors, in Centesimus Annus, 1991, making a frank acknowledgement that socialism has failed on its own terms as as witnessed by events in Eastern Europe.

Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI:
“The State which would provide everything, absorbing everything into itself, would ultimately become a mere bureaucracy incapable of guaranteeing the very thing which the suffering person - every person - needs: namely, loving personal concern. We do not need a State which regulates and controls everything, but a State which, in accordance with the principle of subsidiarity, generously acknowledges and supports initiatives arising from the different social forces and combines spontaneity with closeness to those in need. … In the end, the claim that just social structures would make works of charity superfluous masks a materialist conception of man: the mistaken notion that man can live ‘by bread alone’ (Mt 4:4; cf. Dt 8:3) - a conviction that demeans man and ultimately disregards all that is specifically human.” (Encyclical Deus Caritas Est, December 25, 2005, n. 28)

All this is true. Because Marxism was atheistic, and because to this day largely socialist states end up making a god of the State, Pius XI and the bishops of Europe feared Stalin more than they feared Hitler. And with good reason. When the Soviet Union conquered Eastern Europe post WW II, the Church suffered great setbacks, probably even more so than under the Nazi regime. It was well known inside Germany that when Hitler took on Russia, Churchmen hoped it would be Communism that would be defeated even more than they prayed for the end of Naziism.

 

[Tzimisce]

It would seem that the earliest Christians adopted a socialist mode of life, “holding all things in common.” Christian monastic communities also practice socialism. St. Benedict denounces private ownership of property as an evil.

The Gospels (and indeed the OT) speak vigorously against inequality of access to material resources.

Now, while a Christian could not be, in a technical sense, a pure ‘Marxist’ (since that would involve dialectical materialism), it seems as if a socialist economic system is the only one which reflect Gospel values.

Socialism is a transitional state where one is going from a free market to a command (Marxist) one.

And what did Karl Marx want? He tells us on page one of the Communist Manifesto.

He wanted the destruction of the middle class. He wanted the blood of the middle class flowing in the streets.

He didn’t think that would be feasible in a lot of places, so the rest of the Communist Manifesto is about using the system to destroy the middle class.

In a Marxist state, there is still a wealthy upper class. That would be Karl and his friends. Everyone else would be poor. Upstarts will be punished: harshly.

A Communist State looks a lot like a medieval manor: there is a wealthy elite living in luxury and a bunch of poor dirt farmers supporting them. This is why early Christians lived in Communes: because it was the middle ages.

Communist States also glorify the static. Change is dangerous because someone might get the idea that the leaders are not the best. This is why Communist societies carefully regulate ideas. Especially religious ideas.

The irony is that religious people often push for the Marxist state, but Marxist states are always hostile to religions. The more Marxist the state, the harder it hammers religion.

In a Marxist State one shall have no gods before the leaders.

Any capitalist system is based on inequality of resources.

Capitalism is based on getting the most resources to the most people for the lowest cost.

In a Capitalistic system, people use their creativity and ingenuity to make their lives better often improving the lives of those around them as well.

In the past few decades, most medicines have been created in the United States. Why? Because someone putting in overtime and working their fingers to the bone can make money off of their work.

In the Socialist states of western Europe, overtime is illegal. If you do invent something great, the government dictates how much you charge for it - i.e. the government tells you have much your time and energy and work is worth.

People tend to be very generous with things that aren’t theirs.

Where is the justice in someone owning ten houses, and someone else being homeless? Where is the justice in someone going hungry while others eat smoked salmon and drink champagne?

What gives you the right to judge?

I could reverse the question: why do I have to work, scrimp and save to buy a house when some junkie living on the street will be given one for free?

Okay - not every poor person is there because something that is there fault and not every rich person is layabout who was born into it.

Also, inheritance of wealth is part of the capitalism system. How is it just the someone inherits money in property, while others get nothing at all? It is a sin against the dignity of man.

What gives you the right to judge?

Covetousness is sin.

So is stealing. Using threats and coercion to take money and property that isn’t yours IS stealing. Even if the government wants to make it legal.

Many other social issues (such as abortion and crime) are born from economic injustice.

An abortion costs a couple thousand bucks. The poor people you’re describing don’t have that kind of money.

In surveys “Not ready to be a mother” tops the list of reasons for abortion.

There are lots of reasons for crime. Sexual abuse has little to do with economics. Rape has nothing to do with economics. Drug abuse often has little to do with economics.

Is it time the Church started to speak up more vocally, against the sin of the capitalism and private propety, and advocated a Gospel-based system- i.e. socialism?

What’s the Church’s solution? Takeover by force?

They tell me that God gave men a choice. Funny that other men often don’t.

 

[Tzimisce]

There are two Americas. The article points out that business is obsessed with profit and **not **the common good. Greed and selfishness have produced the law of the jungle in our society where one third of the world are living in poverty and misery.

…so a bunch of people demanding the money and property of others has the gall to lecture the rest of us about “greed”?

Why is it “greed” to want to keep what one has earned and “not greed” to demand that it be taken from someone else?

 

[Tzimisce]

More like 3/4…
Greed and selfishness are sins, and are not something specific to capitalism/socialism

Sitting in judgement of the morality of others is also a sin, is it not?

 

[Tzimisce]

The very expression “Christian Capitalists” sounds self-contradictory. Did Jesus advocate an economic free-for-all?

He didn’t advocate jealousy of others.

Or stealing.

 

[TaurusRex]

It would seem that the earliest Christians adopted a socialist mode of life, “holding all things in common.” Christian monastic communities also practice socialism. St. Benedict denounces private ownership of property as an evil.

The Gospels (and indeed the OT) speak vigorously against inequality of access to material resources.

Now, while a Christian could not be, in a technical sense, a pure ‘Marxist’ (since that would involve dialectical materialism), it seems as if a socialist economic system is the only one which reflect Gospel values.

Any capitalist system is based on inequality of resources. Where is the justice in someone owning ten houses, and someone else being homeless? Where is the justice in someone going hungry while others eat smoked salmon and drink champagne?

Also, inheritance of wealth is part of the capitalism system. How is it just the someone inherits money in property, while others get nothing at all? It is a sin against the dignity of man.

Many other social issues (such as abortion and crime) are born from economic injustice. Is it time the Church started to speak up more vocally, against the sin of the capitalism and private propety, and advocated a Gospel-based system- i.e. socialism?

Aren’t you contradicting the tenth commandment of God?
“Thou shalt not covet thy neighbors goods.”

rex

 

[Tzimisce]

“Massive poverty and obscene inequality are such terrible scourges of our times…”

• Nelson Mandela

Says the guy who got into “necklacing”…

 

[Counterpoint]

Now, while a Christian could not be, in a technical sense, a pure ‘Marxist’ (since that would involve dialectical materialism), it seems as if a socialist economic system is the only one which reflect Gospel values.

Just FYI stuff. The “dialectic” is a.k.a. the “logos” - the rational principle which was first articulated by pre-Socratics and found its full expression in Hegel’s idealistic philosophy. (Marx was a student of Hegel. Also, the apostle John co-opted the “logos” and ascribed it to Christ in John 1:1). Liberation theology is theistic communism. However, liberation theology was denounced by John Paul II.

 

[Tzimisce]

Here’s an idea: why doesn’t the Catholic church sell its property to feed the poor?

It has all that Renaissance art and all those beautiful buildings. Think of all the good it could do with that money. All the poor people they could feed.

The Catholic church is supposed to be a non-profit organization. Jesus started the church and conducted his teachings from one room shacks and rocks in the desert. That should be good enough for modern leadership.

 

[TaurusRex]

Here’s an idea: why doesn’t the Catholic church sell its property to feed the poor?

It has all that Renaissance art and all those beautiful buildings. Think of all the good it could do with that money. All the poor people they could feed.

The Catholic church is supposed to be a non-profit organization. Jesus started the church and conducted his teachings from one room shacks and rocks in the desert. That should be good enough for modern leadership.

The Catholic Church does plenty and needs Its wealth to continue doing plenty …
there are single individuals with more financial wealth than the Catholic Church.

PS:
Is my post about the tenth commandment being ignored?

rex

 

[Abu]

Tzimisce #95
Jesus started the church and conducted his teachings from one room shacks and rocks in the desert. That should be good enough for modern leadership.

The above shows abysmal ignorance of the fact that the reason poverty in the world was ameliorated was due to the application of the teaching of Jesus through His Catholic Church which enabled the raised living standards of untold millions.

What did Jesus really teach?
In His constant praising of human work, Jesus gives examples of merchants in parables:
“The kingdom of heaven is like treasure hidden in a field, which a man found and covered up, then in his joy he goes out and sells all that he has and buys the field.”

“Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a merchant in search of fine pearls, who, on finding one pearl of great value, went and sold all that he had and bought it.”
[Matt 13:44-46, where the actions of merchants are valued and appreciated].

The message of the parable “hinges on two things. The goodness of the work of merchants in and of itself is the first of these. Christ affirms the work of merchants. Why would He have used the example if He did not? Second, the parable depends on the recognition of this goodness by those who hear the parable. His audience must have had some knowledge of what constitutes the work of a merchant and have had an experience of the goodness of this work. Without these two realities the truth of the parable remains ineffectual.”
Entrepreneurship in the Catholic Tradition, Fr Anthony G Percy, Connor Court Publishing, 2011, p 45-6].

The reality is: Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime. Put another way – easy come, easy go. Anyone who thinks that curtailing self-reliance is good is not facing reality.

It is time to face reality. As St Paul confirms: “If any one will not work, let him not eat” (2 Thess 3:10).

Dr Chafuen notes that “many people close to Jesus were quite wealthy for their times. Joseph seems to have had his own business and perhaps a donkey; Peter owned a fishing boat, and Matthew was a tax collector. Jesus praised the rich man Zaccheus. It was the wealthy Joseph of Arimathea who kept faith even when the Apostles were beset by doubt (Mt 27:57). Jesus does not condemn the possession of riches but, rather disordered attachment to them.” Notice also that Jesus did not ask His Apostles to renounce their property. Christians For Freedom, Dr Alejandro Chafuen, Ignatius, 1986, p 45]

 

[Abu]

Qoeleth #69
‘Free enterpise’ did not originate with monastries, but is of pre-historic origin. Free enterprise is as old as civilization itself.
What is the basis of linking it with monastries?
Sure, monastries practised agriculture, and crafts, and sometimes traded their products. But they certainly did not invent it.

The facts are given on the germination of free enterprise in the monasteries in posts #68, 57, 39, and 22.

Christopher Dawson also shows in *Religion and the Rise of Western Culture *how the monasteries became the locus of productivity and learning throughout Europe and further, as the Canadian historian John Gilchrist, an authority on the economic activity of the medieval church, pointed out, the first examples of capitalism appeared in the great Christian monasteries.

Free Enterprise: An economy that relies chiefly on market forces to allocate goods and resources and to determine prices.
Capitalism: An economic system based on private ownership of capital.

Acton Home » PUBLICATIONS » Religion & Liberty » Volume 10, Number 3
How Christianity Created Capitalism
acton.org/pub/religion-liberty/volume-10-number-3/how-christianity-created-capitalism

How Christianity Led to Freedom, Capitalism, and the Success of the West
RODNEY STARK
catholiceducation.org/articles/history/world/wh0109.html

How Christianity Led to Freedom, Capitalism, and the Success of the West
By Rodney Stark | Posted: Fri. December 2, 2005
independent.org/newsroom/article.asp?id=1809