Socialism (Theory) and Catholicism

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I’m just curious what Christians think of socialist theory- Marx and Engels, French socialist theory, Trotsky and Lenin etc… I’m of course not talking about the failed socialism of Russia, and I’m just wondering if there are any other curious people out there who have read material on socialism and how they contrast that to Christian values.

Thanks!

Karina
 
…ethically speaking, Socialism is committed to the doctrine of determinism. Holding that society makes the individuals of which it is composed, and not vice versa, it has quite lost touch with the invigorating Christian doctrine of free will. This fact may be illustrated by its attitude towards the three great institutions which have hitherto most strongly exemplified and protected that doctrine — the Church, the Family, and private ownership. Socialism, with its essentially materialistic nature, can admit no raison d’etre for a spiritual power, as complementary and superior to the secular power of the State.
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in terms of how it could be practiced, there aren’t many differences…caring for everyone, equality, solidarity…but it may stop there. the main difference is between free will and coercion. i think Christianity is more like anarchism (not anarchy!!!) than communism or socialism. its more about free associations that help the greater good. check out distributivism. it’s Catholic through and through.
 
Quote from Pope that may be of interest: *Are only material goods, social, economic and political problems “reality”? This was precisely the great error of the dominant tendencies of the last century, a most destructive error, as we can see from the results of both Marxist and capitalist systems. They falsify the notion of reality by detaching it from the foundational and decisive reality which is God. Anyone who excludes God from his horizons falsifies the notion of “reality” and, in consequence, can only end up in blind alleys or with recipes for destruction.

…

Both capitalism and Marxism promised to point out the path for the creation of just structures, and they declared that these, once established, would function by themselves; they declared that not only would they have no need of any prior individual morality, but that they would promote a communal morality. And this ideological promise has been proved false. The facts have clearly demonstrated it. The Marxist system, where it found its way into government, not only left a sad heritage of economic and ecological destruction, but also a painful oppression of souls. And we can also see the same thing happening in the West, where the distance between rich and poor is growing constantly, and giving rise to a worrying degradation of personal dignity through drugs, alcohol and deceptive illusions of happiness.

Just structures are, as I have said, an indispensable condition for a just society, but they neither arise nor function without a moral consensus in society on fundamental values, and on the need to live these values with the necessary sacrifices, even if this goes against personal interest.

Where God is absent—God with the human face of Jesus Christ—these values fail to show themselves with their full force, nor does a consensus arise concerning them. I do not mean that non-believers cannot live a lofty and exemplary morality; I am only saying that a society in which God is absent will not find the necessary consensus on moral values or the strength to live according to the model of these values, even when they are in conflict with private interests.

(Address of Pope Benedict XVI, Shrine of Aparecida, Brazil, 2007)*
 
Socialism is agaisnt Catholic teachings, doctrine from the recognition socialism is that of a government taking from the people by force(not just taxation) and then redistributing to the people.

that taking from the people, strips the freedom of the people to chose for themselves what they want to do with their fruit of labors…

the best example of this is the Mininoites who were in Russia in the onslaught of the socialist revolutions.
that time when people were in starvation for the government decides that everybody needs to be feed to keep the peace, but the failure to, those that work to procure the fruits of labor arent apprciated for the work ethic of raising the food.
the government in ignorance told the Minonites that they needed to keep raising food, but their was no more a God that they could be thankfull for the fruits of the labor, but now just a government that was taking over their land and all their fruits were the governments.

why should people come to work and pray to God for the fruits of labor, when the Government is merely going to seaze it from the people, and redistribute the food to all to keep the people to keep them in a false content, though they dont have to work or toil, or risk?

Socialism is an evil, for it says to look to government as the source of all, and deny the reality of God will provide enough, but that you also have an obligation to work to attain…
the US is now in this same senrio even if people want to recognize it or not,
in that its came to be that people can have an expectation to be feed, and now health care, and they dont have to toil for the fruits of their labor, the govenrment will provide it all regardless, socialism.

hunger is a greater issue today in the US and world, not that the food dont exist, but that reality of distribution. are those that toil and work to raise food, obligated to feed the people?
not really, nobody is obligated to feed the people, if the government wants a revolution, not feeding the people is a first step in starting one…

Hoarding is the opposite of Charity, but that is the mind of todays people to survival.

Russia tried this experiment with Socialism/Communism, a tragidity, but the bigger tragidity is the US people now have a govenrment and leaders, very directly, obamma that dont know or recognize the failure of socialism.

and thats why Catholics and the christian community sinned big in voting the ignorant to lead them…

the church/God was a powerfull force in the leading of the world since time, but, ignorane is the ignoring of the wisdom of the Church, call it truth, truth is wisdom, its all the same.

socialism is that big failure of democracy, when people want to turn to government as their God, so they can attain a fictional wealth and power… denial of God, but seeking mans ways.

most all of this was heavyly recognized by the founding fathers, but ignorance and failure to teach history of religion is a failure, for religion is truth, government is mans ignorance to power and domination that brings ruin to cilizations.

NO government is always better than bad, that is the leason that people always have to learn time and again because of mans failure to be desire power wealth…

the US is bringing itself to be a repeat of Europe, borrowing of money, aristocratic, and power hungry people, who profit by corruption, in disguess of its capitalism, and oh yea, not perfect but the best government because it was founded on God…

history books of a hundred years ago recognized it, today it has to be learne allover again…
 
Mexico, in anarchy, is a modern day of example, the people were stripped of their land in the US failed free trade system. corrupt, but reality…

and now the US is following suit.

not to cause a panic, for hoarding is the opposite of charity, but people have to come to appreciate, nobody is obliagate to feed the people, but the government recognizes that the people have to be feed to stop a revolution…

yet if the producers of food are stripped of their fruits of the labor, they then have no obligation to keep feeding the people…a though balance that socialsim calls for, pilfering the food produceres, so the government can remain in power though its corruption causes starvation by socialism in the first place.

today, the export of food is the bigger profit mecca, for the US people are now poor, they have no jobs, so do they export the food for profit, to reward the producers, or pilfer the food from the producers to keep the people feed? and break the producers?

the reality is, depression is an normal economic cycle, a cleaning process of capitalism, but, socialism and communism deny capitalism, and so does the US govenrment bororwing to sustian the fictional economy, thats the current formula for starvation of the people, for nobody is obligated to feed them.

dont steal , the govenrment doesnt like compitition is the quote to reality of today…
 
What the Popes Really Say About Socialism

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PIUS IX (1846-1878)

The Overthrow of Order

“You are aware indeed, that the goal of this most iniquitous plot is to drive people to overthrow the entire order of human affairs and to draw them over to the wicked theories of this Socialism and Communism, by confusing them with perverted teachings.”
(Encyclical Nostis et Nobiscum, December 8, 1849)

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LEO XIII (1878-1903)

Overthrow is Deliberately Planned

“… For, the fear of God and reverence for divine laws being taken away, the authority of rulers despised, sedition permitted and approved, and the popular passions urged on to lawlessness, with no restraint save that of punishment, a change and overthrow of all things will necessarily follow. Yea, this change and overthrow is deliberately planned and put forward by many associations of communists and socialists.”
(Encyclical Humanum Genus, April 20, 1884, n. 27)

Debasing the Natural Union of Man and Woman

“They [socialists, communists, or nihilists] debase the natural union of man and woman, which is held sacred even among barbarous peoples; and its bond, by which the family is chiefly held together, they weaken, or even deliver up to lust.
(Encyclical Quod Apostolici Muneris, December 28, 1878, n. 1)

The Harvest of Misery

“…there is need for a union of brave minds with all the resources they can command. The harvest of misery is before our eyes, and the dreadful projects of the most disastrous national upheavals are threatening us from the growing power of the socialistic movement.”
(Encyclical Graves de Communi Re, January 18, 1901, n. 21)

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SAINT PIUS X (1903-1914)

The Dream of Re-Shaping Society will Bring Socialism

“But stranger still, alarming and saddening at the same time, are the audacity and frivolity of men who call themselves Catholics and dream of re-shaping society under such conditions, and of establishing on earth, over and beyond the pale of the Catholic Church, ‘the reign of love and justice’ … What are they going to produce? … A mere verbal and chimerical construction in which we shall see, glowing in a jumble, and in seductive confusion, the words Liberty, Justice, Fraternity, Love, Equality, and human exultation, all resting upon an ill-understood human dignity. It will be a tumultuous agitation, sterile for the end proposed, but which will benefit the less Utopian exploiters of the people. Yes, we can truly say that the Sillon, its eyes fixed on a chimera, brings Socialism in its train.”
(Apostolic Letter Notre Charge Apostolique “Our Apostolic Mandate”] to the French Bishops, August 15, 1910, condemning the movement Le Sillon)

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BENEDICT XV (1914-1922)

Never Forget the Condemnation of Socialism

“It is not our intention here to repeat the arguments which clearly expose the errors of Socialism and of similar doctrines. Our predecessor, Leo XIII, most wisely did so in truly memorable Encyclicals; and you, Venerable Brethren, will take the greatest care that those grave precepts are never forgotten, but that whenever circumstances call for it, they should be clearly expounded and inculcated in Catholic associations and congresses, in sermons and in the Catholic press.”
(Encyclical Ad Beatissimi Apostolorum, November 1, 1914, n. 13)
 
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PIUS XI (1922-1939)

Socialism Cannot Be Reconciled with Catholic Doctrine

“We make this pronouncement: Whether considered as a doctrine, or an historical fact, or a movement, Socialism, if it remains truly Socialism, even after it has yielded to truth and justice on the points which we have mentioned, cannot be reconciled with the teachings of the Catholic Church because its concept of society itself is utterly foreign to Christian truth.”
(Encyclical Quadragesimo Anno, May 15, 1931, n. 117)

Catholic Socialism is a Contradiction

“[Socialism] is based nevertheless on a theory of human society peculiar to itself and irreconcilable with true Christianity. Religious socialism, Christian socialism, are contradictory terms; no one can be at the same time a good Catholic and a true socialist.” (Ibid. n. 120)

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PIUS XII (1939-1958)

The Church Will Fight Socialism to the End

“[The Church undertook] the protection of the individual and the family against a current threatening to bring about a total socialization which in the end would make the specter of the ‘Leviathan’ become a shocking reality. The Church will fight this battle to the end, for it is a question of supreme values: the dignity of man and the salvation of souls." (“Radio message to the Katholikentag of Vienna,” September 14, 1952 in Discorsi e Radiomessaggi, vol. XIV, p. 314)

The All-Powerful State Harms True Prosperity

“To consider the State as something ultimate to which everything else should be subordinated and directed, cannot fail to harm the true and lasting prosperity of nations.” (Encyclical Summi Pontificatus, October 20, 1939, n. 60)

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JOHN XXIII (1958-1963)

“No Catholic could subscribe even to moderate socialism”

“Pope Pius XI further emphasized the fundamental opposition between Communism and Christianity, and made it clear that no Catholic could subscribe even to moderate Socialism. The reason is that Socialism is founded on a doctrine of human society which is bounded by time and takes no account of any objective other than that of material well-being. Since, therefore, it proposes a form of social organization which aims solely at production; it places too severe a restraint on human liberty, at the same time flouting the true notion of social authority.” (Encyclical Mater et Magistra, May 15, 1961, n. 34)

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PAUL VI (1963-1978)

Christians Tend to Idealize Socialism

“Too often Christians attracted by socialism tend to idealize it in terms which, apart from anything else, are very general: a will for justice, solidarity and equality. They refuse to recognize the limitations of the historical socialist movements, which remain conditioned by the ideologies from which they originated.” (Apostolic Letter Octogesima Adveniens, May 14, 1971, n. 31)

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JOHN PAUL II (1978-2005)

Socialism: Danger of a "simple and radical solution"

“It may seem surprising that ‘socialism’ appeared at the beginning of the Pope’s critique of solutions to the ‘question of the working class’ at a time when ‘socialism’ was not yet in the form of a strong and powerful State, with all the resources which that implies, as was later to happen. However, he correctly judged the danger posed to the masses by the attractive presentation of this simple and radical solution to the ‘question of the working class.’" (Encyclical Centesimus Annus - On the 100th anniversary of Pope Leo XIII’s Rerum Novarum, May 1, 1991, n. 12)

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BENEDICT XVI (2005 - present)

We do not Need a State which Controls Everything

“The State which would provide everything, absorbing everything into itself, would ultimately become a mere bureaucracy incapable of guaranteeing the very thing which the suffering person - every person - needs: namely, loving personal concern. We do not need a State which regulates and controls everything, but a State which, in accordance with the principle of subsidiarity, generously acknowledges and supports initiatives arising from the different social forces and combines spontaneity with closeness to those in need. … In the end, the claim that just social structures would make works of charity superfluous masks a materialist conception of man: the mistaken notion that man can live ‘by bread alone’ (Mt 4:4; cf. Dt 8:3) - a conviction that demeans man and ultimately disregards all that is specifically human.” (Encyclical Deus Caritas Est, December 25, 2005, n. 28)
 
May add another from Pope Leo XII:*To remedy these wrongs the socialists, working on the poor man’s envy of the rich, are striving to do away with private property, and contend that individual possessions should become the common property of all, to be administered by the State or by municipal bodies. They hold that by thus transferring property from private individuals to the community, the present mischievous state of things will be set to rights, inasmuch as each citizen will then get his fair share of whatever there is to enjoy. But their contentions are so clearly powerless to end the controversy that were they carried into effect the working man himself would be among the first to suffer. They are, moreover, emphatically unjust, for they would rob the lawful possessor, distort the functions of the State, and create utter confusion in the community. (Leo XIII, Rerum Novarum, 4)*I think the Pope here is recognizing the commandment, though shall not steal, for it is possible to own a thing, and it is unlawful to unjustly steal that thing from its owner.
 
Aren’t the countries of Europe socialist? (with the possible exception of Poland.) :confused:
 
Well, a breath of fresh air to see people acknowledge that socialism is evil to be blunt.
yet all major schools of suposed higher learning would claimore that is great .

Yes Europe is Socialist, ever hear of the Protestant work ethic?

why did so many flee Europe, religious freedom to not be in socialism.
what people fail to equate is, borrowing of money, usary, and unjustified wars, as aristocratic end result of socialism all tie together why people fleed europe, and the recognition that the fore fathers set up the US to not be of these issue, but today in the failure to follow that which the Church so well knew once, is now not recognized, and, that attrocity the US is now what people left europ to escape.

its tough for people to grasp, no government is better than bad government, most directly when the people come to fear the government, rather than the govenrment fears the people, as it well should.
 
The evil of socialism is that it disguises itself as a force for good, when in reality the promoters of it mean to seize the wealth of others (through taxation) and divide it among themselves. Greed and theft are the heart and soul of socialism. Greed without productivity. This applies both to corporate bailouts and to the millions who profit from government sponsored entitlements. Under socialism the class of profiteers who plunder the producers of wealth grows exponentially, until the commonwealth collapses under the weight of so much corruption.
 
Hey thanks for your responses! I appreciate your imputs, it was very imformative. There are different brands of socialism and I was hoping we could talk about these different definitions of socialism, but it seems we’re talking mostly about forms of Stalisnism here. I really liked one of the posts that talked about about distributism because it emphasizes the need people have for another system. A lot of people are dissatisfied with capitalism and I’m glad to see that Pope Leo XIII and Pope Pius XI talked about this.
 
sin is sin, socialism is socialism… lets not get confused their is good sin and good socialism.

socialism goes hand in hand with, the Laws of Property, that enable a few to hoard the wealth, alowing a few to build up great hoards of land.

and its again to tie to the subject that the borrowing o f money perpetuates the borrowing of money, as usary were in a time of a greater education and realization to the failure of such, recognized as wrong… by the Church in its greater knowledge of the failures of.

Many of the founding fathers of the US recognized and understood the failure of socialism, borrowing of money, and usary, and most definitely the tragidity of military not for defense, but to pilfer and plunder other nations, that the US should have not ties to foreign policy of any…

point blank, fore father and fonders were men of wisdom and knowledge, todays leaders are of mere superstition and ignorance, and, held unaccountable by the people/laity.
 
karirodrigu0 said:
I’m just curious what Christians think of socialist theory- Marx and Engels, French socialist theory, Trotsky and Lenin etc… I’m of course not talking about the failed socialism of Russia, and I’m just wondering if there are any other curious people out there who have read material on socialism and how they contrast that to Christian values.

Thanks!

Karina
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A well learned man can see that there is obviously elements of socialist theory that speak true to the common good and the horrendous conditions in which socialism arose in the first place.

However some of the solutions proposed by socialism do not work ethically and does just as bad a job as unbridled capitalism if not worse. In particular i don’t agree with the abolishment of private ownership. However i strongly disapprove both morally and practically of the belief that people have an unconditional right to property. That is not true. In some contexts it is possible for a situation to arise where having more than someone else is theft insofar as it succeeds to offend the common good.

The growing abyss between the poor and the rich is evidence of that sin, and it is a sin that even some Catholics try to hide by fallaciously calling people socialists for courageously fighting for the common good and agreeing with taxation to that end.

We live in a sick world.

Lets face it honestly. If unbridled capitalism benefited everyone, always, and at all times, and reflected the dignity of human beings in every respect, there would not have been a need for a theory such as socialism to be invented in the first place. Thus the fault lies as much with unbridled Capitalism as it does with Socialism.

There has to be a perfect synthesis between Capitalism and the Common Good, and that has to be enforced by law if we are to move forward into a society that values everyone.

So far Catholics and others have put forward “Distributism”; the only alternative i have seen proposed so far.

Today’s business model is to take and give nothing back to the common good or community. That’s theft.
 
Linux said:
A well learned man can see that there is obviously elements of socialist theory that speak true to the common good and the horrendous conditions in which socialism arose in the first place.

However some of the solutions proposed by socialism do not work ethically and does just as bad a job as unbridled capitalism if not worse. In particular i don’t agree with the abolishment of private ownership. However i strongly disapprove both morally and practically of the belief that people have an unconditional right to property. That is not true. In some contexts it is possible for a situation to arise where having more than someone else is theft insofar as it succeeds to offend the common good.

The growing abyss between the poor and the rich is evidence of that sin, and it is a sin that even some Catholics try to hide by fallaciously calling people socialists for courageously fighting for the common good and agreeing with taxation to that end.

We live in a sick world.

Lets face it honestly. If unbridled capitalism benefited everyone, always, and at all times, and reflected the dignity of human beings in every respect, there would not have been a need for a theory such as socialism to be invented in the first place. Thus the fault lies as much with unbridled Capitalism as it does with Socialism.

There has to be a perfect synthesis between Capitalism and the Common Good, and that has to be enforced by law if we are to move forward into a society that values everyone.

So far Catholics and others have put forward “Distributism”; the only alternative i have seen proposed so far.

Today’s business model is to take and give nothing back to the common good or community. That’s theft.
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Unbridled capitalism is best defined as a form of capitalism without proper governmental control or governmental safeguards, and in essence, places profits in priority to democracy, rights, and freedoms.

Sound familiar anyone. People not getting proper access to the best health care without worries of debt and being able to afford it, being one of the devils great achievements in America.
 
**Sound familiar anyone. People not getting proper access to the best health care without worries of debt and being able to afford it, being one of the devils great achievements in America. **

You will know a good deal more about the devil’s achievements when total State control of health care and education is achieved under the guise of the public good. After all, you don’t really think the devil is going to appear with horns and pitchfork, do you? :eek:
 
In Catholicism, we have a monarchical system where Jesus is our King and the Pope is the Vicar of Christ. Socialism is against that.
 
Margaret Thatcher, said, “The problem with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people’s money.” 😉
 
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