socialism

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Any of you who listen to Rush Limbaugh will know he reads the real story of the first Thanksgiving every year on his show. It is a great object lesson in how private property ownership and capitalism are better for society than socialism. His information comes from William Bradford’s journal. He was governor of the colony founded by the Mayflower pilgrims. Transcript from last November (rushlimbaugh.com/home/daily/site_112107/content/01125113.guest.html):
Now, the real story of Thanksgiving: “On August 1, 1620, the Mayflower set sail. It carried a total of 102 passengers, including forty Pilgrims led by William Bradford. On the journey, Bradford set up an agreement, a contract, that established just and equal laws for all members of the new community, irrespective of their religious beliefs. Where did the revolutionary ideas expressed in the Mayflower Compact come from? From the Bible,” and this is what’s not taught. This is what’s left out. "The Pilgrims were a people completely steeped in the lessons of the Old and New Testaments. They looked to the ancient Israelites for their example. And, because of the biblical precedents set forth in Scripture, they never doubted that their experiment would work. But this was no pleasure cruise, friends. The journey to the New World was a long and arduous one. And when the Pilgrims landed in New England in November, they found, according to Bradford’s detailed journal, a cold, barren, desolate wilderness. There were no friends to greet them, he wrote. There were no houses to shelter them. There were no inns where they could refresh themselves. And the sacrifice they had made for freedom was just beginning. During the first winter, half the Pilgrims – including Bradford’s own wife – died of either starvation, sickness, or exposure.
“When spring finally came, Indians taught the settlers how to plant corn, fish for cod and skin beavers for coats. Life improved for the Pilgrims, but they did not yet prosper! This is important to understand because this is where modern American history lessons often end. Thanksgiving is actually explained in some textbooks as a holiday for which the Pilgrims gave thanks to the Indians for saving their lives, rather than as a devout expression of gratitude grounded in the tradition of both the Old and New Testaments. Here is the part that has been omitted: The original contract the Pilgrims had entered into with their merchant-sponsors in London called for everything they produced to go into a common store, and each member of the community was entitled to one common share. All of the land they cleared and the houses they built belong to the community as well.” They were collectivists! Now, "Bradford, who had become the new governor of the colony, recognized that this form of collectivism was as costly and destructive to the Pilgrims as that first harsh winter, which had taken so many lives.
He decided to take bold action. Bradford assigned a plot of land to each family to work and manage, thus turning loose the power of the marketplace. … Long before Karl Marx was even born, the Pilgrims had discovered and experimented with what could only be described as socialism. And what happened? It didn’t work! Surprise, surprise, huh? What Bradford and his community found was that the most creative and industrious people had no incentive to work any harder than anyone else, unless they could utilize the power of personal motivation! But while most of the rest of the world has been experimenting with socialism for well over a hundred years – trying to refine it, perfect it, and re-invent it – the Pilgrims decided early on to scrap it permanently. What Bradford wrote about this social experiment should be in every schoolchild’s history lesson," every kid gets. “If it were, we might prevent much needless suffering in the future.” Here’s what he wrote: "‘The experience that we had in this common course and condition, tried sundry years…that by taking away property, and bringing community into a common wealth, would make them happy and flourishing – as if they were wiser than God,’ Bradford wrote.
continued…
 
“‘For this community [so far as it was] was found to breed much confusion and discontent, and retard much employment that would have been to their benefit and comfort. For young men that were most able and fit for labor and service did repine that they should spend their time and strength to work for other men’s wives and children without any recompense…that was thought injustice.’” That was thought injustice. “Do you hear what he was saying, ladies and gentlemen? The Pilgrims found that people could not be expected to do their best work without incentive. So what did Bradford’s community try next? They unharnessed the power of good old free enterprise by invoking the undergirding capitalistic principle of private property. Every family was assigned its own plot of land to work and permitted to market its own crops and products. And what was the result?” ‘This had very good success,’ wrote Bradford, “for it made all hands industrious, so as much more corn was planted than otherwise would have been.” Bradford doesn’t sound like much of a Clintonite, does he? Is it possible that supply-side economics could have existed before the 1980s? … In no time, the Pilgrims found they had more food than they could eat themselves. … So they set up trading posts and exchanged goods with the Indians.

“The profits allowed them to pay off their debts to the merchants in London. And the success and prosperity of the Plymouth settlement attracted more Europeans and began what came to be known as the ‘Great Puritan Migration.’” Now, aside from this program, have you heard this before? Is this “being taught to children – and if not, why not? I mean, is there a more important lesson one could derive from the Pilgrim experience than this?” What if Bill and Hillary Clinton had been exposed to these lessons in school? Do you realize what we face in next year’s election is the equivalent of people who want to set up these original collectivists communes that didn’t work, with nobody having incentive to do anything except get on the government dole somehow because the people running the government want that kind of power. So the Pilgrims decided to thank God for all of their good fortune. And that’s Thanksgiving. And read George Washington’s first Thanksgiving address and count the number of times God is mentioned and how many times he’s thanked. None of this is taught today. It should be. Have a happy Thanksgiving, folks. You deserve it. Do what you can to be happy, and especially do what you can to be thankful, because in this country you have more reasons than you’ve ever stopped to consider.
 
The right to private property, acquired or received in a just way, does not do away with the original gift of the earth to the whole of mankind. The universal destination of goods remains primordial, even if the promotion of the common good requires respect for the right to private property and its exercise.
Thanks for the Catechism quotes, I didn’t know there was anything in there specifically mentioning property rights.

The problem is that so much property has been acquired in an unjust manner. There is such a big division between the wealthy and the low income and I wouldn’t attribute it to specifically socialism( and the ideologies around socialism), nor specifically to Capitalism, but definitely tilting more to the latter.

Also, I really think this thread belongs in apologetics and definitely not family life. 🙂
 
It was Pope Leo XIII, I believe, who declared that no one could at the same time be a Catholic and a true Socialist. A previous poster said that “Socialism” is not a precise term because people use it to mean different things. Yet Pope Leo used the term. What did he mean by that?

In the encyclical “Rerum Novarum”, Leo XIII took up the notion of socialism, along with that of capitalism and compared those to the Church’s own views.

The principal thrust of Leo XIII’s analysis (shared by later popes) is not negative but positive. He recognized that, in some way, all people are in need. That’s just how life is. In meeting those needs, he said, the remedial agent most proximate to the need is the proper one to relieve the need. Therefore, for example, if my child is hungry, I should not rely on the neighbors, the Church, the city or the county or the state or the nation to feed my child if I can feed my child myself. Nor should those more distant entities undertake the task if I can do it, because it encourages me to neglect my duty to my child and encourages both me and my child to become dependant on distant entities to do that which we would be more moral in doing ourselves. That’s called “subsidiarity”.

Socialism, when you cut away all the details and differences, is one thing. It is using the coercive power of the state to redistribute goods contrary to what the marketplace would do. The marketplace insists that if I want something someone else has produced, I must give for it something of reasonably equal value that I have produced for it. Since “swapping” is unhandy, we use money as a “symbol” of the production and trade that.

Socialism would simply be market economics if it did that,but it doesn’t. It insists that what I produce be given to another who has not produced something of reasonably equal value, and that I must give it and not receive value for it. So, it’s an involuntary servitude, to a degree. Since people don’t usually want to do that, they must be forced to do it by the power of the state. Ultimately, the power of the state depends on its power to incarcerate or kill me, because one or the other happens if I resist sufficiently to get it to that point.

That conflicts with the Church’s position in several ways. The most important is that it’s contrary to “subsidiarity”. The capable entity most proximate to the need is not generally the level of government that has the power to incarcerate or kill me, but is far down the scale from that. Nor, under “subsidiarity” does coercion necessarily have to be involved. Take food again. One has to get to at least the state level in the U.S. before reaching an entity with the power to coerce my neighbor to give my child something for nothing under pain of incarceration or death, when I, myself, may be the most proximate entity capable of doing it. But socialism takes it a step further and puts the duty on the highest and most removed entity immediately; the national government.
Furthermore, when my child depends on the national government for his existence, he becomes a creature of the state and the pupil of the state, not of his family, friends, Church, and so on.
The child learns the values of the state, not that of family, friends, Church, etc., and it is destructive to everything in between. If I get used to the idea that the national government will feed my child, I am encouraged to neglect my natural and moral duties to the child, and so on. In doing that, I also become a dependant of the state and subject to its will more than would otherwise be the case.

That is not to say that Pope Leo XIII felt no one should help my child if I cannot. But he did say the next most proximate competent entity should then do it. Neighborhood, Church, city, etc. Only when none of them can do it effectively should the highest entities of government do it.

But, Leo XIII felt, and being very distrustful of resorting to dependency on large entities of any kind, whether government, big business or anything like them, that certain provisions should be made for those in need who cannot help themselves and who cannot be helped by more proximate entities. If, say, disabled people simply cannot be provided for in any other way, then it is the duty of the state to provide decently for them, and if coercion is unavoidable, then it must resort to it in order to protect human dignity. Then, and only then, can the state, in effect, violate voluntary associations (the market) and cause me to give what I produce to someone who does not reciprocate to the economy.

The problems, then, with socialism, is that it is a concept that resorts to high-end coercion right off, in order to meet needs as it sees them regardless of the ability of more proximate entites to do it, sweeps aside voluntarism in principle, and tends to exact agreement with its dicta in other ways because it can, all others being dependant on it. It’s the concept, not the particular small applications, that is the problem.

As applied, socialism tends to provide things routinely that can be provided more proximately, and arrogates to itself, increasingly, the role of doing it. That, to me, and to the Church, is why what is commonly termed “middle class welfare” is wrong. If, say, my parents and I are capable of working to put me through college, even if it takes more effort than it might for someone else, and even if it takes longer, then it is wrong for the government to step in and guarantee a free college education for everyone.

(continued)
 
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There is no end to human needs in a way. But my notion that I “need” a college education for free is not really a need. It is a want, a desire. It is often difficult for people to distinguish between “needs” and “wants”. It is easy for people to become corrupted and insist that others provide for me more and more, based on my subjective judgment that I “need” what someone else can pay for.

The “social encyclicals” say a lot more than that, but this has gotten pretty long and it’s getting late. So I’ll close and yield the floor to someone else.
 
Socialism vs communism in my mind: Communism is the sharing of resources through mutual consent while socialism is the pooling of resources by force and redistribution of those resources based on a centralized political structure.

Communism and Capitalism can coexist peacefully. There are references in the Bible to the apostles sharing resources and pooling their money, presumably voluntarily. It is a sin to not share with those in need but it is also a sin to steal money from one person in the name of helping another. It is a worse sin to steal from one in the name of helping another when the true intent is to create a power system for personal profit, personal glorification, and the implementation of personal will. This greater sin is what I see the socialist (and some “liberals”) being guilty of.
 
Yes. It is.
Marxism and socialism propose confiscation of property, nationalization of goods and services, and forced redistribution of wealth through totalitarian government.
:tiphat::clapping: WELL SAID!!! :clapping: :tiphat:

My family is from Cuba, let me translate the Marxist / Socialist lexicon:

feeding the poor = food rationing, long lines, hunger, no choice for what you want to eat, thin people. fat gov’t officials, fat soldiers, fat police. When people don’t get any reward for working harder and producing more, they work less and produce less. That is why every Marxist country is poor and has hunger problems. The gov’t elite gets all the food they want, while the people suffer.

**creating housing **= confiscating large houses from productive and successful families, and converting them into apartment buildings. My grandfather’s 2 story house, now houses my aunt and her family, and 3 other families that were previously unknown to her. She does not get any rent revenue and this action was not her choice. They all have to share the same kitchen. Of course, since it is no longer “her” house, she has no incentive to repair it. So the 80 year old house is falling apart. And soon all 4 families will be without housing. How is this good for anyone?

**universal health care **= the doctors work for next to nothing, and there is a waiting list for years for most medicines and medical services . We had to mail my aunt glasses & dentures because the waiting list to get them was years long. She had to wait 5 years for caterac surgery and then only was able to have 1 eye done, and then on the waiting list again for the 2nd eye.

free education = you don’t get to choose what you want to study, the gov’t decides based off of test scores and who your parents are. After you graduate you have to work your whole life for the gov’t, earning only a few dollars while everything else you produce goes straight into the system.

redistribution of wealth = everyone is poor, except for the gov’t elite

**revolution **= brainwashing by taking children away from parents at age seven, putting them in boarding schools, and teaching them to be wary of parents, and to turn them over to the secret police if they even mention anything against the gov’t.

It is not wrong for you to believe in charitable acts, and to perform them yourself, this is good. However, it is wrong to condone a system whereby people have no freedom and no choices.
 
Manifestly, religious-based “communism” can work, if the religion itself is rational.

But it seems to me secular “communism” is just socialism with sharper fangs. The underlying principles, as I understand them, are not really different. The fundamental organizational principle is redistribution of the benefits of individual effort by coercion, with a very centralized authority determining to what degree and in what ways that redistribution is to take place. It is the antithesis of a voluntary concept in which people trade the benefits of their efforts voluntarily, receiving relatively equal benefits in return. The theoretical (or less likely, collective) rationality of the state in socialism replaces the practical rationality of the individual in resource decisionmaking. It is the antithesis of subsidiarity in that the care of the helpless is relegated to the highest possible authority (because it has the greatest coercive power) rather than the most proximate. (family, community, Church, city, etc) The necessity of coercion is assumed. It is the antithesis of distributism in that control of productive assets is placed at the highest level rather than at the most proximate level to the individual.

I will grant that, at the margins, some measures that fit the “socialist” pattern in some ways, are likely necessary in a large society, particularly when that society absorbs a level of productive resources that makes it difficult for those at a more proximate level to need to actually provide. (It would be interesting to see what voluntary charity could do in a society that was taxed much less) State coercion in one way or another will always be a feature of human society, human beings being what we are. But it is the assumption that state coercion is the fundamentally proper response to all needs and wants is the inhuman thing about it. Socialistic societies can be fairly balanced, relatively benign and even polite. But they are always a usurpation of human freedom and conscience, and tend to be progressive in their usurpations because of their fundamental foundational assumptions.
 
We all know the problems of capitalism. If the individuals are not charitable, those who are unable to care for themselves, for whatever reason, will suffer. (Capitalism tends to favor freedom over equality.) But at least capitalism lends itself to human nature. Those who work hard and wisely tend to prosper. Those who are somewhat lazy or chose to work at something that doesn’t offer much return, don’t prosper. As a result, capitalism tends to police itself.
Normally yes, but without external interference, it will often go astray. Free market often leads to the creation of monopolies, which leads to the market no longer being free. A capitalist economy doesn’t work well for the common citizen without ombudsmen, competition & consumer protection laws, anti-trust legislation and more. Sometimes I think that without such protections, we would have a world of subliminal advertisement all the way.

Capitalism has also created the corporate world and corporate customs. Calling everyone by name, obfuscating the chain of command to the point where work relationships become personal and work subjection becomes personal subjection. If you’re Tom and you obey Mike because Mike is [Insert_Title] that’s fine, but when Mike tells you what to do because Mike’s Mike and you’re Tom, now that’s not nice. Then add all that double-speak, the dreaded corporate jargon enslaving people’s minds. I hate it.

Now consider also that the whole “diversity” thing is not exactly so very socialist or otherwise left-wing. In fact, it’s often associated with the corporate world (not like all corporations always go wrong with all left-wing parties…). It’s capitalism which creates all the many “freedoms” that people claim.

Besides, doesn’t even the name suggest that the focus is on capital, on abstract amounts of money rather than on the people?

Personally, I’m thoroughly disenchanted by capitalism. I’m also an enemy of communism - another misguided totalitarian regime spawned by an ideology which initially probably meant well and which was likely caused by a pretty healthy opposition to unjust practices of capitalism.

There’s a reason why the Church doesn’t stick with any concrete system but rather gives her own indications of how certain given aspects of community, social or even economic life should be handled. And that is good - focusing on doing the right thing, the good thing, not on following an ideology. An ideology which is not in the Bible. Not in the Bible, not in the Fathers, why bother with it? Look what the Pharisees did with the law of Moses. How much more can be made with a purely man-made ideology? -Isms generally divide people rather than unite them. What’s important is doing the right thing.
 
My family is from Cuba, let me translate the Marxist / Socialist lexicon:
Poland here… Also some first-hand experience, hehe.

**
feeding the poor
**
= food rationing, long lines, hunger, no choice for what you want to eat, thin people. fat gov’t officials, fat soldiers, fat police.
Yup… And a crowd of people with low ranks in the communist party having it better than those without the “red card”.
When people don’t get any reward for working harder and producing more, they work less and produce less. That is why every Marxist country is poor and has hunger problems.
Actually, they experimented a lot with rewarding workers who did more than the norm. There was the whole “work leader” thing. They reaped the benefits and it was highly politicised. Otherwise yep, communism didn’t really reward industriousness, although capitalism doesn’t always, either.
The gov’t elite gets all the food they want, while the people suffer.
Pretty much it…

**
creating housing
**
= confiscating large houses from productive and successful families, and converting them into apartment buildings.
Well, they also confiscated land from big land-owners in post-feudal arrangements. Historically, wealth hasn’t always been gained as a reward for industriousness or noble pursuits. A lot of private wealth was created as a result of a misguided transposition of feudal socio-political supremacy of the nobility into a socio-economical supremacy in which they began to own what they once held in fief from the king, which then the serfs held in sub-fief from the nobles. As a result, mostly the nobles got the land, the king got little, the serfs nearly nothing. If the king is not to be the legal owner (feudalism allowed double, triple etc ownership, while pretty much no other system did), because the land is fiefed to the nobles, then why not apply the same principle to the nobles and give the land to the serfs rather, converting the overlordship into some form of rent? That was done, but it took a long time. And the answer is power. Powerful groups unfortunately have the power to effect such changes as to further their own interests at the expense of others. Capitalists often seem to claim that all the wealth currently possessed is rightful and that all the previous acquisition was rightful and just.

Thing is, while often wealth - at least among the common people - is often a result of good management, learning, intelligence, a business sense, studiousness, a desire to satisfy the customer etc - there are always many cases in which money breeds money and the richer get richer while the poorer get poorer. “To become wealthy, you need to be a nobleman. To become a nobleman, you need to be wealthy.” Seemingly unbreakable circle. That’s a pretty exaggerated example, of course, but nonetheless it needs to be pointed out that capitalism often glosses over frightening violations of social justice.
My grandfather’s 2 story house, now houses my aunt and her family, and 3 other families that were previously unknown to her. She does not get any rent revenue and this action was not her choice. They all have to share the same kitchen. Of course, since it is no longer “her” house, she has no incentive to repair it. So the 80 year old house is falling apart. And soon all 4 families will be without housing. How is this good for anyone?
How I know that one… It was a nightmare in Poland in the commie times and the offshots of such an attitude survive until now. What’s everyone’s is no one’s. This results in a situation in which many people think the answer to the problem is to make everything private, even at the cost of giving away public property to business for free. That’s also wrong - but too few people see it as such.
 
**
universal health care
**
= the doctors work for next to nothing, and there is a waiting list for years for most medicines and medical services .
Yes, but that’s better for many people than a system in which you don’t get any healthcare if you can’t pay for it. Personally, I agree with you, rather, although I’d be very afraid of an unrestrained system of private healthcare. Some boundaries have to exist for example in order to avoid the closing down of unprofitable hospitals or the abandonment of those who can’t afford the healthcare they need. Remember also that private companies tend to charge as much as they can get away with. This is the menace of capitalism. If they can charge this much, there’s no reason why they should charge lower. In theory, they will charge lower if they can sell more that way, but that’s just theory. In practice, the sure revenue from higher prices is too tempting.

And in capitalism, people work for next to nothing too. This includes people with university education, talents, industriousness. Some have to work for free to achieve some experience with which they can look for work.
We had to mail my aunt glasses & dentures because the waiting list to get them was years long. She had to wait 5 years for caterac surgery and then only was able to have 1 eye done, and then on the waiting list again for the 2nd eye.
What if she had no money to pay for it in free-market circumstances?

**
free education
**
= you don’t get to choose what you want to study, the gov’t decides based off of test scores and who your parents are. After you graduate you have to work your whole life for the gov’t, earning only a few dollars while everything else you produce goes straight into the system.
And how is it bad that test scores should decide on availability of education? 😉 Isn’t better education for better scorers better than better education for better payers? Some people were able to get the kind of education they’d never get in a capitalist system. Obviously, with a better management than the communist system provides for, the quality of education - at least as far as the tech, presentational means, rooms etc, as far as such things go, would be better. Student loans could be arranged for. And it’s surely not bad if people can spend money on education by choice even if they score poorly. But I’ll insist that the test and entry exam system wasn’t altogether bad.

**
redistribution of wealth
**
= everyone is poor, except for the gov’t elite
Unfortunately, that’s how it ends up in practice, yup. 😉 However, capitalism does often result in many people living below sustenance.

**
revolution
**
= brainwashing by taking children away from parents at age seven, putting them in boarding schools, and teaching them to be wary of parents, and to turn them over to the secret police if they even mention anything against the gov’t.
The propaganda was awful… Not like modern democracy and capitalism doesn’t have its own set of “unquestionable truths”, double-speak, taboo subjects… Think politically correct jargon, subliminal or at least heavily misleading advertisement, commercialised art and science. Business-driven politics.
It is not wrong for you to believe in charitable acts, and to perform them yourself, this is good. However, it is wrong to condone a system whereby people have no freedom and no choices.
Yup. In communism you don’t have much choice. The system is everywhere. It dominates everything. You can’t read or write about anything if it doesn’t involve praise of the system. You can’t do much on your own. You can’t discuss ideas. Everyone’s poor, everything’s in poor condition, there’s no improvement unless external financial aid is involved - for a short time.
 
Normally yes, but without external interference, it will often go astray. Free market often leads to the creation of monopolies, which leads to the market no longer being free.

Now consider also that the whole “diversity” thing is not exactly so very socialist or otherwise left-wing. In fact, it’s often associated with the corporate world (not like all corporations always go wrong with all left-wing parties…). It’s capitalism which creates all the many “freedoms” that people claim.

Besides, doesn’t even the name suggest that the focus is on capital, on abstract amounts of money rather than on the people?

Personally, I’m thoroughly disenchanted by capitalism. I’m also an enemy of communism - another misguided totalitarian regime spawned by an ideology which initially probably meant well and which was likely caused by a pretty healthy opposition to unjust practices of capitalism.

There’s a reason why the Church doesn’t stick with any concrete system but rather gives her own indications of how certain given aspects of community, social or even economic life should be handled. And that is good - focusing on doing the right thing, the good thing, not on following an ideology. An ideology which is not in the Bible. Not in the Bible, not in the Fathers, why bother with it? Look what the Pharisees did with the law of Moses. How much more can be made with a purely man-made ideology? -Isms generally divide people rather than unite them. What’s important is doing the right thing.
Monopolies are, by definition, the antithesis of a free market. There’s not a dime’s worth of difference between domination by monopolies or domination by government.

Capitalism is not, itself, an economic “system”. It’s the lack of a system; a “tabula rasa” upon which any number of things may be written. Simply put, capitalism is only the freedom of an individual to accumulate and dispose of the fruits of his labor as he can, and he chooses. That’s just human nature, not a system. The question, then, is whether and to what degree that natural tendency may be encouraged, directed or constrained. If it’s encouraging to economic enterprise and minimally directing or constraining, we still call it “capitalism”. If it’s discouraged, highly directed or constraining, we call it something else. If it’s excessively controlled by huge private concerns, we call it “monopoly capitalism”, which is really a misnomer. If by government, we call it “socialism”, which is also not exactly descriptive.

The social encyclicals opt for a minimum of discouragement, direction or constraint of individuals by central governments or by private (particularly corporate) entities. Those encyclicals emphasize two principles, but do leave the details of it to the social structure. Those are “subsidiarity”, as I mentioned before. The other is, by others, called “distributism” or “distributionism”, which stands for the widest possible ownership of productive assets; assets that can be redistributed within the family, including inheritance. Both emphasize the primacy of the family as the primary social and economic unit.

Ironically, the closest recent political proposition to a “distributist” approach to anything was Bush’s “partial privatization” of social security. As long as there was a suitable “safety net” for those who could not help themselves, that proposal was entirely faithful to the social encyclicals. Incredibly, the USCCB opposed it. Perhaps they don’t read the encyclicals. The next most recent “distributist” policy; one that was actually adopted, was the 401K. It takes assets and invests them productively. But at all times, the 401K is the property of the individual, then of the family, through inheritance. It reduces dependence on government and, by creating a discrete “productive asset account”, tends to keep it out of the hands of private purveyors of consumer goods.
The old “defined benefit” retirement plans, now thankfully disappearing (except, unfortunately, in some “sunset” industries that can no longer afford them and sometimes spent them), was a dependency on the corporation, and thus non-distributist.
 
Socialism is problematic because it its focused on forcing those who have earned something to give it to someone who has not earned it. This is an absolute disregard for the right to private property, an affront to freedom, and discourages progress.

From the New Deal, to the Great Society, and right up to the present Medicare Part D program and bailouts of homeowners who took out mortgages on houses they couldn’t afford, we are slowly moving from a society where you receive something you have earned, to where you receive something because you need it, and finally, the most troubling, is the move to getting something simply because you want it.

Last night I was having a discussion with a friend about my objections to Social Security in principle and in practice. First, I think that we shouldn’t have Social Security to begin with; people should be able to keep their money and save and invest on their own. If they fail to save, they aren’t entitled to a retirement. In practice, however, I was pointing out that as the society ages and people live longer, we can’t keep the retirement age at 65 or 67. My friend didn’t seem to appreciate my comments, since his parents have next to nothing saved for retirement…I told him, that’s fine, but they then shouldn’t get to retire, unless someone wants to provide that retirement to them (ie. him).

Obviously, not all people are able to continue working. There should be some social safety net for these people. But there are plenty of healthy people who are perfectly able to work, but instead expect the government to pay for their retirement because “they’ve earned it.” Just because you reach an arbitrary age doesn’t mean you have earned anything. Ultimately, I see retirement as a luxury. Just as I am not entitled to a Mercedes if I can’t afford it, I am not entitled to a retirement if I cannot afford it.

But people want to retire. People want to live in big houses they can’t afford. And so our government makes it possible. And it taxes responsible citizens who live at or below their means to pay for it.
 
maybe i should explain further.
i’m not for some robin hood system, taking from the rich to give to the poor. i do think the wealthy should be taxed more, since who really needs millions and millions of dollars in the bank? end bush’s tax cut to the rich and that would bring in 500 billion dollars! that money should go to social programs. cut the military budget in half, bring the troops home, and close bases around the world. all of that money that is saved could go to social programs. health care should be a right, not a choice. education as well. community colleges and trade schools should be free. investing in people should be a high priority of the government. minimum wage should end. what about a living wage? or dare i say, a maximum wage!? how many americans can live and support a family for 6 dollars an hour? investing in workers is an investment in our country. housing should be affordable.
just a few thoughts.
other than that, i’m not for a government telling me what to do, how to do it, and when to do it. i think that the government, like that one post said, should do the right thing.
i could never be a commie.
 
i do think the wealthy should be taxed more, since who really needs millions and millions of dollars in the bank? end bush’s tax cut to the rich and that would bring in 500 billion dollars! that money should go to social programs…
Your understanding of economic transactions is very limited. What do you think rich people do with the $500B?? They use it to get credit to buy $100 Trillion worth of stuff. They buy luxury cars (employing upper class engineeers, middle class factory workers, lower class car repairmen, minimum wage and below car cleaners and cheufers), luxury watches (employing sales people, shop owners, mall owners, maintenance crews), airplanes (employing pilots, stewdesses, mechanics), houses (employing maids, Home Depot workers, gardeners, furniture salesmen, tile installers, painters, pool cleaners, etc, etc, etc) you get my drift.

What about the people who invest their money??? They employ stock brokers, market traders, and factory workers that work in the corporations they invest in.

A rich person with money invests and spends not only the money that they have, but also the money they can borrow off of the money they have. Therefore, they employ / help more people, thus helping more families, then the gov’t beaurocracies ever could by simply spending every sent they get in taxes every year. And that doesn’t even count all the gov’t waste that lines the pockets of lobbiests and political contributors.
 
not sure where this thread belongs in but…
is it wrong to agree with the same ideas that marxists/socialists have? for example, the ideas that they have for feeding the poor, creating housing, universal healthcare, etc, all sound good to me. but is it morally wrong to agree with them? i’ll admit i’m ignorant on the whole philosophy but they do seem to make some good points which would serve everybody and not just a favored few, like what the Church teaches.
I would like you, and anybody else who reads this thread, to consider the words of Dorothy Day, foundress of the Catholic Worker movement.

She is an icon of the authentic expression of Catholic Social Justice. I don’t think that ANYBODY who claims to be concerned with the poor would dare argue with that.

But one thing that is not clearly understood about her is that she is an ARDENT anti-socialist.

For example,
It is always hard to ask, but our Lord told us, “Ask and you shall receive, seek and you shall find.” It is even harder to live on this faith, in this spirit of abandonment, in these days of governmental war against poverty, because the tendency is to believe that Government can do so much better, with all the means at its disposal. But we know, with our 33 years of Catholic Worker experience, the true efficiency of the person-to-person encounter. It is a matter of constant examination of conscience for each of us because of our failure to love and to respond to the need presented to us.
- Dorothy Day, Fall Appeal - October 1965

Or for that matter, look at her cry against, of all things, Social Security, given back in 1945:
In the first place, It shocks US that so many do not understand those basic principles of personalism, personal responsibility and voluntary poverty which have for the past twelve years been emphasized monthly in the CATHOLIC WORKER, and in the lives of those who have worked in our thirty-two houses and ten farms. (Now there are ten houses and ten farms.)
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I will try to explain. Samuel Johnson said that a pensioner was a slave of the state. That is his definition in his famous dictionary. Of coarse, he himself was glad of his pension, human nature being what it is, and poverty being hard as it is.
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***We believe that social security legislation, now balled as a great victory for the poor and for the worker, is a great defeat for Christianity. *It is an acceptance of the Idea of force and compulsion. It is an acceptance of Cain’s statement, on the part of the employer. “Am I my brother’s keeper?” Since the employer can never be trusted to give a family wage, nor take care of the worker as he takes care of his machine when it is idle, the state must enter in and compel help on his part. Of course, economists say that business cannot afford to act on Christian principles. It Is impractical, uneconomic. But it is generally coming to be accepted that such a degree of centralization as ours is impractical, and that there must be decentralization. In other words, business has made a mess of things, and the state has had to enter in to rescue the worker from starvation.
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Of course, Pope Pius XI said that, when such a crisis came about, in unemployment, fire, flood, earthquake, etc., the state had to enter in and help.
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But we in our generation have more and more come to consider the state as bountiful Uncle Sam. “Uncle Sam will take care of it all. The race question, the labor question, the unemployment question.” We will all be registered and tabulated and employed or put on a dole, and shunted from clinic to birth control clinic. “What right have people who have no work to have a baby?” How many poor Catholic mothers heard that during those grim years before the war!
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0t course, it is the very circumstances of our lives that lead us to write as we do. We see these ideas worked out all around us. We see the result of this way of thinking on all sides. We live with the poor, we are of the poor. We know their virtues and their vices. We know their generosities and their extravagances. Their very generosity makes them extravagant and improvident.
- Dorothy Day, More About Holy Poverty. Which Is Voluntary Poverty, February 1945.

There are so many here who claim to be good Catholics and good Socialists at the same time. The two concepts are simply incongruous.

My apologies for posting the above quotes, but I felt it was necessary. If I simply echoed those words, I would, as usual, be written off as some knuckle-dragging right wing-nut. But I don’t know of any “social justice” Catholic who would claim that Dorothy Day is not an icon of the Social Justice movement. SHE recognized the importance of personal responsibility. SHE recognized the danger of the government doing what we should be doing for each other. You may argue with Leo XIII, Pius XI, John Paul II…but are you going to say that you are more atuned with the needs of the poor than Dorothy Day?
 
Monopolies are, by definition, the antithesis of a free market. There’s not a dime’s worth of difference between domination by monopolies or domination by government.
Free market breeds monopolies. You need to restrict and watch the market to avoid the creation of monopolies. The practice of capitalism is self-destructive this way: if you leave companies unwatched, with only the market to answer to, at some point monopolies will arise and allow monopolists to overcharge their goods or services.
Simply put, capitalism is only the freedom of an individual to accumulate and dispose of the fruits of his labor as he can, and he chooses.
A legal freedom but not a factual one. The 19th century is a prime example of where unrestrained capitalism leads with its freedom of contracting.
If it’s excessively controlled by huge private concerns, we call it “monopoly capitalism”,
I went to school too. 😉 Monopoly capitalism may be self-contradictory, but that’s where it leads when you leave companies unwatched. Companies need to be forbidden from doing certain things they would normally do and those prohibitions need to be enforced.
The social encyclicals opt for a minimum of discouragement, direction or constraint of individuals by central governments or by private (particularly corporate) entities. Those encyclicals emphasize two principles, but do leave the details of it to the social structure. Those are “subsidiarity”, as I mentioned before.
Yup, I went to school too. 😉 However, subsidiarity is not capitalism. The way, say, Leon Harmel’s company operated is not the same as the typical capitalist corporation operates when it has much choice. Leon Harmel’s company actually prospered - and that’s perfectly right both by the book and in life. However, companies will exploit workers and cheat customers if they can get away with it. Major corporations get along surprisingly well with China slave labour. If they can get away with it, they will have employes work for the longest hours for the lowest pay. They don’t consider the long-run ramifications of such actions simply because in their mind it doesn’t pay.

Don’t get me wrong. I’m no socialist. I’m just thoroughly disenchanted with capitalism. Capitalism would be good if people did ethically and if they were conscious of their duties. Capitalism of itself doesn’t promote compassion. It focuses on rights and it forgets that ownership is a social responsibility (which is in the encyclicals) and that goods are acquired within a system and the system in which some people have it easier to acquire goods is not exactly just. This doesn’t make theft or forcible redistribution right, but it doesn’t make the goods acquired through such a system free of any ethical duty to the less fortunate (which is not in the encyclicals, but I’d think it’s pretty obvious).
 
Socialism is problematic because it its focused on forcing those who have earned something to give it to someone who has not earned it. This is an absolute disregard for the right to private property, an affront to freedom, and discourages progress.
Yup.
People want to live in big houses they can’t afford. And so our government makes it possible. And it taxes responsible citizens who live at or below their means to pay for it.
However, that’s not so simple. It’s not always hard work vs laziness. Income disparity is not always dictated individual talent or merit. Received circumstances matter too much too often. We are responsible for the system we create. If the system allows the industrious to profit at the expense of the less able or less operative or simply less fortunate, that profit is not fair and the system is not just. Redistribution through progressive taxes is not wrong in such circumstances, I believe.
 
Your understanding of economic transactions is very limited. What do you think rich people do with the $500B?? They use it to get credit to buy $100 Trillion worth of stuff. They buy luxury cars (employing upper class engineeers, middle class factory workers, lower class car repairmen, minimum wage and below car cleaners and cheufers), luxury watches (employing sales people, shop owners, mall owners, maintenance crews), airplanes (employing pilots, stewdesses, mechanics), houses (employing maids, Home Depot workers, gardeners, furniture salesmen, tile installers, painters, pool cleaners, etc, etc, etc) you get my drift.
Wow… you would probably make a horrible economist. 200:1 ratio for credit. Isn’t that one reason for the current credit crisis. I also do not understand your fetish for the current service economy too.
And that doesn’t even count all the gov’t waste that lines the pockets of lobbiests and political contributors.
Care to name them? It is not that I am denying that they exist, but I want to see how many of them who do not conform to your political agenda.
 
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is it wrong to agree with the same ideas that marxists/socialists have? for example, the ideas that they have for feeding the poor, creating housing, universal healthcare, etc, all sound good to me. but is it morally wrong to agree with them? i’ll admit i’m ignorant on the whole philosophy but they do seem to make some good points which would serve everybody and not just a favored few, like what the Church teaches.
Well, socialism, when practiced by the citizenry, is fine. It should be. But when the government forces socialism on the people, it is morally wrong and dangerous. Marxisms goes beyond. It is a clear prelude to oppression. It looks good on paper, but is horrible in practice.
 
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