Socialism

[BH_Manners]

Why does the Catholic Church oppose socialism?

Or does it depend on what kind of socialism one is talking about?

 

[Jayda]

hola BH Manners

I think the issues of class division and atheism are a problem… the goals of looking out for the poor and oppressed are the same, but the Church addresses these concerns correctly and socialism does so immorally…

que Dios te bendiga

 

[levi86]

Why does the Catholic Church oppose socialism?

Or does it depend on what kind of socialism one is talking about?

It doesn’t.

Socialism (as an economic system) is perfectly compatible with Christianity.

 

[BH_Manners]

hola BH Manners

I think the issues of class division and atheism are a problem… the goals of looking out for the poor and oppressed are the same, but the Church addresses these concerns correctly and socialism does so immorally…

que Dios te bendiga

Jayda,

But various places in the Bible speak of relations between the poor and rich as being one exploiting the other.

For one example see Sirach 13.

 

[Jayda]

Jayda,

But various places in the Bible speak of relations between the poor and rich as being one exploiting the other.

For one example see Sirach 13.

si… and in those various situations it is appropriate for a special attention to be called to the oppressed (Vatican II). but socialism and marxism cast the entire world as a constant struggle between exploitive higher classes and exploited lower classes. the bible and Church teach otherwise.

socialism if it submits to Catholic teachings is perfectly fine… as i said before socialism has some Catholic goals. but socialism as just socialism with no regard to Catholicism is not allowed.

no philosophy that comes in conflict with the Church and does not submit to Church opinion can be good…

que Dios te bendiga

 

[levi86]

si… and in those various situations it is appropriate for a special attention to be called to the oppressed (Vatican II). but socialism and marxism cast the entire world as a constant struggle between exploitive higher classes and exploited lower classes. the bible and Church teach otherwise.

This is entirely untrue. Class struggle is the single most important aspect of human history. There has never been a society (apart from primitive communal societies) that has ever maintained order without the oppression of the proletariat by the bourgeoisie.

The Church has never denied this fact

 

[Montalban]

Why does the Catholic Church oppose socialism?

Or does it depend on what kind of socialism one is talking about?

There are conservative elements within the RC Church, but on the whole it does not oppose socialism - when it’s for social equality.

However socialism is often associated with atheism, and also with utopianism ideals - utopianism is the belief that we can all get together and build a paradise on earth and this has some Pelagian heretical elements - man as a sinful/fallen creature needs God. Socialism is about man bettering man without reference to God.

In many ways I consider myself a socialist. In Acts we see people providing money to the church and the elders doling this out to church members on a needs basis - each according to his needs (as Marx would say).

Many of the primitive socialists/communists were Christians such as the Levellers - who believed that we’re all born on the same ‘level’ - each with a soul, no different from any others.

The “Diggers” or “True Levellers” who practiced communal farming were also Christians. (see en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diggers_(True_Levellers) )

 

[Montalban]

This is entirely untrue. Class struggle is the single most important aspect of human history. There has never been a society (apart from primitive communal societies) that has ever maintained order without the oppression of the proletariat by the bourgeoisie.

The Church has never denied this fact

What classes existed at the time of Adam?

The very argument that there were no classes then was used to promote egalitarianism!
In the Middle Ages the Lollards (who had ideals that were primitive socialistic) said “When Adam delved and Eve span, who was then the gentleman?”

That’s the very nature of what Marx called a ‘pre-capitalist’ society… which is admirably described in Engel’s book The Origin of the Family, Private Property, and the State*

Also Marx noted that the nature of classes changed. Prior to the industrial revolution the working class were not detached from the products of their own labour.

And which model of ‘class’ do you go by? e.g. Weber’s ideas of class differed somewhat from Marx’s.

*-he states that in primitive societies, which where they were matrilineal there was no great divisions based on property.

 

[levi86]

And which model of ‘class’ do you go by? e.g. Weber’s ideas of class differed somewhat from Marx’s…

Personally, I consider myself post Marxian without being post-modern. I’m in favour of a broader understanding of power as Weber suggests, as this is better suited to defining power outside a capitalist society (as you eluded to). However I think defining power in modern society on the basis of ones relation to the means of production is still the most effective way of defining power.

 

[vern_humphrey]

From the Catechism:

2425 **The Church has rejected the totalitarian and atheistic ideologies associated in modem times with “communism” or “socialism.” **She has likewise refused to accept, in the practice of “capitalism,” individualism and the absolute primacy of the law of the marketplace over human labor.207 Regulating the economy solely by centralized planning perverts the basis of social bonds; regulating it solely by the law of the marketplace fails social justice, for "there are many human needs which cannot be satisfied by the market."208 Reasonable regulation of the marketplace and economic initiatives, in keeping with a just hierarchy of values and a view to the common good, is to be commended.

The problem with socialism (and even more with communism) is that it requires focibly takeing from some citizens to give to others – which means the government must be overwhelmingly powerful. That’s why Communist countries always have murderous, brutal dictators.

 

[bilop]

It doesn’t.

Socialism (as an economic system) is perfectly compatible with Christianity.

This is clearly untrue.

From the old Catholic Encyclopedia:

The trend of the Socialist movement, then, and the deliberate pronouncements and habitual thought of leaders and followers alike, are almost universally found to be antagonistic to Christianity. Moreover, the other side of the question is but a confirmation of this antagonism. For all three popes who have come into contact with modern Socialism, Pius IX, Leo XIII, and Pius X, have formally condemned it, both as a general doctrine and with regard to specific points. The bishops and clergy, the lay experts on social and economic questions, the philosophers, the theologians, and practically the whole body of the faithful are unanimous in their acceptance of the condemnation. It is of little purpose to point out that the Socialism condemned is Marxism, and not Fabianism or its analogues in various countries. For, in the first place, the main principles common to all schools of Socialism have been explicitly condemned in Encyclicals like the “Rerum novarum” or the “Graves de communi”;

Pius XI, stated that no one could be a sincere Catholic and a true socialist.

Basically, socialism is a violation of the 7th Commandment, Thou shalt not steal, because it invariably involves forcefully taking the property of some to give to others.

God Bless.

 

[vern_humphrey]

Basically, socialism is a violation of the 7th Commandment, Thou shalt not steal, because it invariably involves forcefully taking the property of some to give to others.

God Bless.

And it also requires creating a powerful government – one that can steal forcibly the property of some to give to others. And that power can be used for other purposes and therefore is inevitably misused.

 

[bilop]

And it also requires creating a powerful government – one that can steal forcibly the property of some to give to others. And that power can be used for other purposes and therefore is inevitably misused.

I agree. We can add that socialism is invariably anti-Christian. Although these two features are, I guess, not strictly part of the textbook definition of Socialism, they seem to go hand and hand.

 

[puzzleannie]

Why does the Catholic Church oppose socialism?

Or does it depend on what kind of socialism one is talking about?

the Catholic church condemns any totalitarian form of socialism. she also condemns and socialist system that replaces the family as the fundamental unit of society, which denies the rights and duties of the parents, and which removes decision making and goverment from the lower levels of society and replaces it with state control. (search on subsidiarity for a better definition).

 

[vern_humphrey]

I agree. We can add that socialism is invariably anti-Christian. Although these two features are, I guess, not strictly part of the textbook definition of Socialism, they seem to go hand and hand.

An all-powerful government must always be hostile to a religion that believes there is something more powerful. A government which, by its very nature, must dictate what people consider right and wrong must oppose a religion with its own system of non-government approved morality.

 

[bilop]

An all-powerful government must always be hostile to a religion that believes there is something more powerful. A government which, by its very nature, must dictate what people consider right and wrong must oppose a religion with its own system of non-government approved morality.

It does seem so, yes. Don’t get me wrong, I hate socialism as much as anyone (my grandad lost half his family to Stalin & Co.), I was just saying that even without discussing the anti-Christian and totalitarian aspects of socialism (which some might claim are not necessary features), socialism is still unacceptable to Catholics b/c it necessitates theft.

 

[Jayda]

This is entirely untrue. Class struggle is the single most important aspect of human history. There has never been a society (apart from primitive communal societies) that has ever maintained order without the oppression of the proletariat by the bourgeoisie.

The Church has never denied this fact

hola levi86,

i was taught differently… the quotes from the Catechism and the Holy Fathers are what i was taught. maybe we could talk about this… could you please share with us where the Church embraced what you are saying?

muchas gracias

 

[Brendan]

It does seem so, yes. Don’t get me wrong, I hate socialism as much as anyone (my grandad lost half his family to Stalin & Co.), I was just saying that even without discussing the anti-Christian and totalitarian aspects of socialism (which some might claim are not necessary features), socialism is still unacceptable to Catholics b/c it necessitates theft.

Exactly, Rerum Novarum was pretty clear on that. It condemned Socialism for it’s advocacy of public ownership over private.

R.N 11

With reason, then, the common opinion of mankind, little affected by the few dissentients who have contended for the opposite view, has found in the careful study of nature, and in the laws of nature, the foundations of the division of property, and the practice of all ages has consecrated the principle of private ownership, as being pre-eminently in conformity with human nature, and as conducing in the most unmistakable manner to the peace and tranquillity of human existence. The same principle is confirmed and enforced by the civil laws-laws which, so long as they are just, derive from the law of nature their binding force. The authority of the divine law adds its sanction, forbidding us in severest terms even to covet that which is another’s: “Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour’s wife; nor his house, nor his field, nor his man-servant, nor his maid-servant, nor his ox, nor his ***, nor anything that is his.”(2)

 

[levi86]

hola levi86,

i was taught differently… the quotes from the Catechism and the Holy Fathers are what i was taught. maybe we could talk about this… could you please share with us where the Church embraced what you are saying?

muchas gracias

I didn’t say the Church supported an ideology of “class struggle”, I simply pointed out the fact that the RCC has not denied such an ideology. The Church has never stated that belief in this aspect of Marxist theory is contrary to the Catholic faith.

 

[levi86]

This is clearly untrue.

From the old Catholic Encyclopedia:

The trend of the Socialist movement, then, and the deliberate pronouncements and habitual thought of leaders and followers alike, are almost universally found to be antagonistic to Christianity. Moreover, the other side of the question is but a confirmation of this antagonism. For all three popes who have come into contact with modern Socialism, Pius IX, Leo XIII, and Pius X, have formally condemned it, both as a general doctrine and with regard to specific points. The bishops and clergy, the lay experts on social and economic questions, the philosophers, the theologians, and practically the whole body of the faithful are unanimous in their acceptance of the condemnation. It is of little purpose to point out that the Socialism condemned is Marxism, and not Fabianism or its analogues in various countries. For, in the first place, the main principles common to all schools of Socialism have been explicitly condemned in Encyclicals like the “Rerum novarum” or the “Graves de communi”;

I’d like to make a couple of points.

Firstly, we are not bound by the Church’s opinion on matters other than those concerned with faith and morals. Socialism (as an economic system) has nothing to do with either faith or morals.

Also, the article makes a number of distinctions regarding different socialist systems. Firstly it states that “modern socialism” is contrary to the faith. This is clearly a reference to Stalinism not socialist theory. Secondly the article makes a distinction between Marxism and Fabianism, the latter being a socialist system based upon peaceful reform rather than violent revolution.

Basically, socialism is a violation of the 7th Commandment, Thou shalt not steal, because it invariably involves forcefully taking the property of some to give to others.

“When someone steals another’s clothes, we call them a thief. Should we not give the same name to one who could clothe the naked and does not?” (Basil the Great)