Socialism

[vern_humphrey]

“When someone steals another’s clothes, we call them a thief. Should we not give the same name to one who could clothe the naked and does not?” (Basil the Great)

Especially when that guy is as smart and healthy as someone else who runs a business and employs a lot of people, but chooses not to use his God-given talents.

 

[Montalban]

From the Catechism:

The problem with socialism (and even more with communism) is that it requires focibly takeing from some citizens to give to others – which means the government must be overwhelmingly powerful. That’s why Communist countries always have murderous, brutal dictators.

Read Acts about what happened to the two people who didn’t give all their money to St. Peter

 

[Montalban]

Personally, I consider myself post Marxian without being post-modern. I’m in favour of a broader understanding of power as Weber suggests, as this is better suited to defining power outside a capitalist society (as you eluded to). However I think defining power in modern society on the basis of ones relation to the means of production is still the most effective way of defining power.

The rise of service industries seems to me to undermine this.

 

[Montalban]

I didn’t say the Church supported an ideology of “class struggle”, I simply pointed out the fact that the RCC has not denied such an ideology. The Church has never stated that belief in this aspect of Marxist theory is contrary to the Catholic faith.

What was the name of that Latin American cleric who said something along the lines of “When I feed the poor, they call me a saint. When I ask “Why are they poor?”, they call me a communist” ?

 

[levi86]

The rise of service industries seems to me to undermine this.

Now were moving into post modern theory (which should be avoided like the plague ) I think the nature of the product has changed but its relation to the Proletariat remains the same.

What was the name of that Latin American cleric who said something along the lines of “When I feed the poor, they call me a saint. When I ask “Why are they poor?”, they call me a communist” ?

Helder Camera

 

[Brendan]

“When someone steals another’s clothes, we call them a thief. Should we not give the same name to one who could clothe the naked and does not?” (Basil the Great)

And St. Basil is quite correct. But where socialism differs from St. Basil is that socialism TAKES the clothes from someone.

Charity is always a personal choice. It does no one any good when charity is forced or compelled.

And compelled ‘charity’ is at the very heart of socialism, and it is contrary to the moral good as taught by the Church.

The Church teaches that the sharing of wealth should always be freely done and in a spirit of charity. Just ask St. Basil

 

[Brendan]

Read Acts about what happened to the two people who didn’t give all their money to St. Peter

Actually, it was due to the fact that Ananias and Sapphira LIED about how much they were giving.

Acts 5:3-4

Then Peter said, “Ananias, how is it that Satan has so filled your heart that you have lied to the Holy Spirit and have kept for yourself some of the money you received for the land? Didn’t it belong to you before it was sold? And after it was sold, wasn’t the money at your disposal? What made you think of doing such a thing? You have not lied to men but to God.”

If they were truthful about how much they were giving to Peter and how much they were keeping for themselves, they would have had no fault.

 

[levi86]

And St. Basil is quite correct. But where socialism differs from St. Basil is that socialism TAKES the clothes from someone.

Charity is always a personal choice. It does no one any good when charity is forced or compelled.

And compelled ‘charity’ is at the very heart of socialism, and it is contrary to the moral good as taught by the Church.

The Church teaches that the sharing of wealth should always be freely done and in a spirit of charity. Just ask St. Basil

I disagree. We already live in a society in which “compelled charity” is enforced by the state. I don’t know about you, but for my income I am taxed 52% (quite a sizable portion of ones income). These funds are taken from us to provide for the collective needs of the state.

Should taxes be given “freely” on a voluntary basis?

 

[mvinca]

I disagree. We already live in a society in which “compelled charity” is enforced by the state. I don’t know about you, but for my income I am taxed 52% (quite a sizable portion of ones income).

And that “compelled charity” is one of the most inefficient systems out there. So instead of adding more socialism into the system, lets get rid of the socialism that is already harming us and the poor.

 

[levi86]

And that “compelled charity” is one of the most inefficient systems out there. So instead of adding more socialism into the system, lets get rid of the socialism that is already harming us and the poor.

Wow, from one extreme to the other.

I should have known better than to bring up the matter of taxation; after all, your country did go to war with England over the issue

 

[Montalban]

Now were moving into post modern theory (which should be avoided like the plague ) I think the nature of the product has changed but its relation to the Proletariat remains the same.

Except that it’s no longer a ‘product’ that people are working with.

If I were a service industry worker, say a self-operating tour guide on the Barrier Reef then I’d be right at home with the fish and coral and would probably not feel ‘aliention’ at all.

Helder Camera

Ta

 

[Montalban]

Actually, it was due to the fact that Ananias and Sapphira LIED about how much they were giving.

Acts 5:3-4
.

Indeed, but they were still supposed to give up their posessions.

 

[levi86]

Except that it’s no longer a ‘product’ that people are working with.

If I were a service industry worker, say a self-operating tour guide on the Barrier Reef then I’d be right at home with the fish and coral and would probably not feel ‘aliention’ at all.

Ta

If you were a “self-operating” tour guide you would be living the socialist dream, isn’t the ultimate goal of Marxist economics self-operation? However id say the vast majority of service workers work under a commercial hierarchy and are just as alienated from the final product (revenue) as industrial workers were in Marx’ time.

 

[Montalban]

If you were a “self-operating” tour guide you would be living the socialist dream, isn’t the ultimate goal of Marxist economics self-operation?

Lots of people do this - they have a seachange and leave the city.

However id say the vast majority of service workers work under a commercial hierarchy and are just as alienated from the final product (revenue) as industrial workers were in Marx’ time.

What about public servants? Where do they fit in?

 

[mike182d]

Where in the Bible does Christ promote social equality?

He spent a good deal of time insulting the Pharisees, but never once criticized the social structure of antiquity - in particular the slave class.

Matter of fact, there’s not a single government policy of the Roman Empire that Christ attacks.

 

[Brendan]

Indeed, but they were still supposed to give up their posessions.

No, no one compelled them to do so. Donations to the Church are always free will offerings of whatever they person feels they can afford.

 

[Brendan]

I disagree. We already live in a society in which “compelled charity” is enforced by the state. I don’t know about you, but for my income I am taxed 52% (quite a sizable portion of ones income). These funds are taken from us to provide for the collective needs of the state.

Should taxes be given “freely” on a voluntary basis?

Christ commanded us to give to Cesear that which Cesear is owned.

The question then becomes, is Charity God’s or Caesars?

To whom did God give the task to feed His sheep, Peter or Caesar?

And in Matt 25, would it be enough to stand before the throne and claim “Lord, money was taken from from others to feed and cloth you, so may I enter now enter into the Kingdom?”

No, Charity is always a personal act and should be done willingly through the Church, not compelled by threat of prison by the State.

 

[Evangel]

Why does the Catholic Church oppose socialism?

The Church has a long history of opposing socialism.

"…no Catholic [can] subscribe even to moderate Socialism."
MATER ET MAGISTRA, 34, Pope John XXIII
On Christianity and Social Progress, May 15, 1961

"…Socialism…cannot be reconciled with the teachings of the Catholic Church because its concept of society itself is utterly foreign to Christian truth."
QUADRAGESIMO ANNO, 117, Encyclical of Pope Pius XI
Reconstruction of the Social Order, May 15, 1931

"Socialists…debase the natural union of man and woman…the [family] bond they…deliver up to lust. Lured…by the greed of present goods…they assail the right of property. While they seem desirous of caring for the needs and satisfying the desires of all men, they strive to seize and hold in common whatever has been acquired either by title, by labor, or by thrift."
QUOD APOSTOLICI MUNERIS, 1, Encyclical of Pope Leo XIII
On Socialism, December 28, 1878

Socialism is actually a bastardization of Christianity, enforcing an idealized “charity” as defined by the ruling class, but without God to guide them. Indeed, God must be outlawed because He just gets in the way.

Some of our socialist friends here often confuse socialist takings with “charity” but it is in fact opposed to charity as free-will is removed from the equation. I find the above quotes to be on the money as far as modern day socialism (of any variety) is concerned.

 

[levi86]

Where in the Bible does Christ promote social equality?

He spent a good deal of time insulting the Pharisees, but never once criticized the social structure of antiquity - in particular the slave class.

Matter of fact, there’s not a single government policy of the Roman Empire that Christ attacks.

Luke 18:20-25
You know the commandments, ‘You shall not commit adultery; you shall not kill; you shall not steal; you shall not bear false witness; honor your father and your mother.’" And he replied, “All of these I have observed from my youth.” When Jesus heard this he said to him, “There is still one thing left for you: sell all that you have and distribute it to the poor, and you will have a treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.” But when he heard this he became quite sad, for he was very rich. Jesus looked at him (now sad) and said, **How hard it is for those who have wealth to enter the kingdom of God! ****For it is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to enter the kingdom of God." **

 

[mike182d]

Luke 18:20-25
You know the commandments, ‘You shall not commit adultery; you shall not kill; you shall not steal; you shall not bear false witness; honor your father and your mother.’" And he replied, “All of these I have observed from my youth.” When Jesus heard this he said to him, “There is still one thing left for you: sell all that you have and distribute it to the poor, and you will have a treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.” But when he heard this he became quite sad, for he was very rich. Jesus looked at him (now sad) and said, **How hard it is for those who have wealth to enter the kingdom of God! ****For it is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to enter the kingdom of God." **

This isn’t a call to social equality. Jesus never says to any rich person “give some of what you have to the poor, and keep some for yourself, so that you’re both equal in possessions.” He tells them: give everything to the poor. Jesus was calling people to poverty - not social equality. In so doing, the rich become poor and the poor become rich. Big difference.

Furthermore, these are personal norms set forth by Christ and not social structures to be implemented by systems of Government - unless you believe in a system of Government that takes *everything *the rich make and gives it all to the poor.

You also did not address why Christ would not speak up on behalf of the slave class of the Roman Empire if He was a proponent of socialism.