Socialism

[St_Benedict]

Sure…first, here is the excerpt again with some bolding:

So, the Church outright rejects totalitarian and atheistic ideologies. Whereas, she has problems with extremes in the “practice” of capitalism - specifically, pure *laissez-faire *capitalism. So, capitalism is preferred, but only with “reasonable regulation…etc.”

No, the Church has no preference, you could have socialism with ‘reasonable regulation’ etc.

 

[rlg94086]

No, the Church has no preference, you could have socialism with ‘reasonable regulation’ etc.

You obviously misread the very section of the catechism you quoted. The Church rejects “socialism.” She only has a problem with some of the practices of “capitalism.” IOW…capitalism with “reasonable regulation.”

Socialism can’t be “reasonably regulated” because socialism is 100% regulation.

 

[St_Benedict]

You obviously misread the very section of the catechism you quoted. The Church rejects “socialism.” She only has a problem with some of the practices of “capitalism.” IOW…capitalism with “reasonable regulation.”

Socialism can’t be “reasonably regulated” because socialism is 100% regulation.

No, the Church rejects ideologies ‘associated in modern times with communism or socialism.’ If the Church condemned every variant of Communism or Socialism then the Catechism could simply have stated The Church rejects communism and socialism. But it’s only ‘totalitarian and aetheistic ideologies ASSOCIATED with communism and socialism’ that are rejected not communism and socialism itself.

I would imagine that 99.999999% of communists are atheists, that’s certainly not the case for socialists.

 

[rlg94086]

No, the Church rejects ideologies ‘associated in modern times with communism or socialism.’ If the Church condemned every variant of Communism or Socialism then the Catechism could simply have stated The Church rejects communism and socialism. But it’s only ‘totalitarian and aetheistic ideologies ASSOCIATED with communism and socialism’ that are rejected not communism and socialism itself.

I would imagine that 99.999999% of communists are atheists, that’s certainly not the case for socialists.

I’m sorry my friend, but you are 99.999999% incorrect.

CCC:

2431 The responsibility of the state. "Economic activity, especially the activity of a market economy, cannot be conducted in an institutional, juridical, or political vacuum. On the contrary, it presupposes sure guarantees of individual freedom and private property, as well as a stable currency and efficient public services. Hence the principal task of the state is to guarantee this security, so that those who work and produce can enjoy the fruits of their labors and thus feel encouraged to work efficiently and honestly. . . . Another task of the state is that of overseeing and directing the exercise of human rights in the economic sector. However, primary responsibility in this area belongs not to the state but to individuals and to the various groups and associations which make up society."217

Please contrast the Catechism with…
Webster's Dictionary:

socialism

Main Entry: so·cial·ism webster.com/images/audio.gif Pronunciation: \ˈsō-shə-ˌli-zəm\ Function: noun Date: 1837

1**:** any of various economic and political theories advocating collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods

2 a**:** a system of society or group living in which there is no private property b**:** a system or condition of society in which the means of production are owned and controlled by the state

3**:** a stage of society in Marxist theory transitional between capitalism and communism and distinguished by unequal distribution of goods and pay according to work done

It’s very clear. We won’t even get into communism.

 

[St_Benedict]

Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1) - Cite This Source - Share This
so·cial·ism /ˈsoʊʃəˌlɪzəm/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[soh-shuh-liz-uhm] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun 1. a theory or system of social organization that advocates the vesting of the ownership and control of the means of production and distribution, of capital, land, etc., in the community as a whole.

It depends which dictionary you use I suppose, the above definition does not fall within the Church rejects criteria

 

[St_Benedict]

It’s very clear. We won’t even get into communism.

For the record, I loathe Communism (and laissez faire Capitalism) - i.e. Catechism position, the following link is not an endorsement, but is interesting to consider in this debate.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_communism

 

[rlg94086]

Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1) - Cite This Source - Share This
so·cial·ism /ˈsoʊʃəˌlɪzəm/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[soh-shuh-liz-uhm] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun 1. a theory or system of social organization that advocates the vesting of the ownership and control of the means of production and distribution, of capital, land, etc., in the community as a whole.

It depends which dictionary you use I suppose, the above definition does not fall within the Church rejects criteria

Yes, it does. I recommend using a real dictionary. The definition above sounds more like communism. It is not a well-written definition.

Regardless, it still is antithetical to the Catechism - “guarantees of individual freedom and private property.”

 

[rlg94086]

For the record, I loathe Communism (and laissez faire Capitalism) - i.e. Catechism position, the following link is not an endorsement, but is interesting to consider in this debate.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_communism

I think it has been discussed. Whereas a very small community could do it, it is not a viable solution on a larger scale due to our fallen nature. Even smaller groups would typically collapse or slip into a despotic situation due to one man’s greed.

 

[vern_humphrey]

When people say things like this:

I loathe Communism (and *laissez faire *Capitalism)

I wonder how they define *laissez faire *Capitalism?

Do they oppose private ownership of the means of production and distribution? There is a good either-or situation – because the alternative is communism.

Do they oppose profit? If so, how do they propose to get people to start and operate businesses?

Do they oppose competition? If so, why are they so enamored of “the rich” as to shield them from competition?

Do they think government can do what the economic system does – and do it better? If so, they are welcome to demonstrate that government can do that.

 

[milde]

The State has a duty to implement distributive justice and communal welfare, but does not have the inner power to touch men’s consciences and call men to heroic charity. In short, the State cannot make saints. Only Christ can do that through his Church. ]

This is obviously double speak. One man’s justice is another’s crime. You can find just about any crime justified in some way in someone’s mind and turned into justice.

 

[milde]

Let’s use American capitalism as a place to put a stake in the ground. In America half the people are given the burden of paying 96% of the taxes. The other half pay only 4%.

My personal opinion is that the people paying 4% need to get off their lazy butts and work harder. This form of capitalism is nothing more than the result of vote buying with a million different little deductions for the couch potatoes who work harder at finding a deduction (ie. reason to justify why they don’t have to contribute) than they find it to just work harder and contribute more.

Does the church support our American graduated tax system?

 

[rlg94086]

Does the church support our American graduated tax system?

Now, that is an area the Church definitely does not delve into! …which is probably a good thing.

 

[vern_humphrey]

Let’s use American capitalism as a place to put a stake in the ground. In America half the people are given the burden of paying 96% of the taxes. The other half pay only 4%.

My personal opinion is that the people paying 4% need to get off their lazy butts and work harder. This form of capitalism is nothing more than the result of vote buying with a million different little deductions for the couch potatoes who work harder at finding a deduction (ie. reason to justify why they don’t have to contribute) than they find it to just work harder and contribute more.

Does the church support our American graduated tax system?

Of course what you just described is not capitalism. It is a form of socialism overlaid on our system.

 

[milde]

Of course what you just described is not capitalism. It is a form of socialism overlaid on our system.

Well, yes. Exactly. 100 years ago charity was written about quite a bit in the newspapers and very much a measure of one’s character. Federal taxes did not exist (gasp!). And keep in mind we were the wealthiest and most powerful country in the world, even without a federal tax system. You tell some people this and they just stare at you in disbelief. They think there can be no decency without forced redistribution of earnings.

Today people really don’t care much for charity since they assume they can just take and redistribute. It’s sad. I’d think the church would much prefer charity over theft.

 

[vern_humphrey]

Well, yes. Exactly. 100 years ago charity was written about quite a bit in the newspapers and very much a measure of one’s character. Federal taxes did not exist (gasp!). And keep in mind we were the wealthiest and most powerful country in the world, even without a federal tax system. You tell some people this and they just stare at you in disbelief. They think there can be no decency without forced redistribution of earnings.

Today people really don’t care much for charity since they assume they can just take and redistribute. It’s sad. I’d think the church would much prefer charity over theft.

I think the Church should drop the couch potato approach to morality – sitting on its duff and cheering or booing while someone else carrys the ball – and get back into the game.

For one thing, we should be setting up Catholic schools in the poorest areas of the country – where the public schools have collapsed. That’s social justice!

 

[rlg94086]

Well, yes. Exactly. 100 years ago charity was written about quite a bit in the newspapers and very much a measure of one’s character. Federal taxes did not exist (gasp!). And keep in mind we were the wealthiest and most powerful country in the world, even without a federal tax system. You tell some people this and they just stare at you in disbelief. They think there can be no decency without forced redistribution of earnings.

Today people really don’t care much for charity since they assume they can just take and redistribute. It’s sad. I’d think the church would much prefer charity over theft.

Yep, then that overbearing tax system was imposed in 1913. I would like to go back to those tax rates (adjusted for inflation to 2006…rounded down to even numbers):

$0 to $400,000 = 1%
$400,000 to $1,000,000 = 2%
$1M to $1.5M = 3%
$1.5M to $2M = 4%
$2M to $5M = 5%
$5M to $10M = 6%
$10M + = 7%

Now, those are numbers I could live with.

We might need to cut some government programs and departments though.

Reference sites: taxfoundation.org/taxdata/show/151.html
westegg.com/inflation/

 

[milde]

I think the Church should drop the couch potato approach to morality – sitting on its duff and cheering or booing while someone else carrys the ball – and get back into the game.

For one thing, we should be setting up Catholic schools in the poorest areas of the country – where the public schools have collapsed. That’s social justice!

That sounds like a great idea. You do realize the teacher’s unions will attack that idea the way they’ve attacked every other attempt that has been made to compete with them. The teacher’s unions fiercely oppose both competition within the public school system or from private schools. They want to be the only game in town so they can do it poorly.

 

[vern_humphrey]

That sounds like a great idea. You do realize the teacher’s unions will attack that idea the way they’ve attacked every other attempt that has been made to compete with them. The teacher’s unions fiercely oppose both competition within the public school system or from private schools. They want to be the only game in town so they can do it poorly.

Absolutely – they have a bumper sticker that says, “We teach the children.” I have always wanted one that says, “The Hell you do!”

How may generations of children will we sacrifice on the altar of the teacher’s unions?

 

[ribozyme]

Exactly. People find a way to justify most any sin they want to commit in an effort to bring the over achievers down to their own level of laziness and general slackness. That’s why capitalism works. Capitalism deals a ruthless blow to people who can’t or won’t create value for others. It’s sounds very Christian to me, so I don’t understand why the church doesn’t preach more about the evils of socialism.

Life is difficult at the low end of the IQ bell curve (IQ 75 and below), as anthropologists have poignantly documented for mildly retarded adults (e.g., Edgerton, 1993, deinstitutionalized retarded adults; Gazaway, 1969, a low-IQ White Appalachian community; Koegel & Edgerton, 1984, Black inner-city special
education students as adults). This is the “high risk” zone: high risk of failing elementary school, being unmasked as incompetent in daily affairs (making change, reading a letter, filling out a job application, understanding doctors’ instructions, monitoring one’s young children), being cheated by merchants and exploited by friends and relatives, remaining unemployed, dependent, and socially isolated, and “consistently fail[ing] to understand certain important aspects of the world in which they live, and so regularly find[ing] themselves unable to cope with some demands of this world” (Edger-ton, 1993, p. 222). Many eventually lead satisfying lives, but only with the help of a benefactor or strong social support network or only after a long struggle to find a self-affirming social niche.

…

As noted before, they are prohibited from enlisting in the military, and no civilian jobs routinely recruit them. They are increasingly vulnerable-and unemployable-as unskilled jobs disappear.

Yes, they can just die as it is very Christian to you. We should let Capitalism deal “a ruthless blow to people who can’t or won’t create value for others” and let them die.

Do you deny these people exist? Or you believe they are scum that should suffer and die? How do you want to deal a “ruthless blow” to those people?

I find it hard to believe a person who says that it charitable.

Yes, people will use redistributed money to buy pornography and alcohol, but what it that money can be used to help lift people out of poverty and rectify the fundamental injustices of nature; inequality in natural ability? Redistributed money has to be wisely adminstered; for example, WIC has several restrictions on how their money can be spent.

That is what Singer proposes (with new technological advanced). Tell me how that is tantamont to genocide.

 

[ribozyme]

Let’s use American capitalism as a place to put a stake in the ground. In America half the people are given the burden of paying 96% of the taxes. The other half pay only 4%.

My personal opinion is that the people paying 4% need to get off their lazy butts and work harder. This form of capitalism is nothing more than the result of vote buying with a million different little deductions for the couch potatoes who work harder at finding a deduction (ie. reason to justify why they don’t have to contribute) than they find it to just work harder and contribute more.

Does the church support our American graduated tax system?

So I guess the “working” poor are lazy. Maybe they should have all their children working and work about 70 hour weeks.

Do you want to know why they support it? Because there are many people who cannot support themselves… Read that reply, you seem to filled with hatred and do not understand their situation.

Read this post… forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=3080575&postcount=204

How are the “production workers, welders, machine operators, custodians, and food service workers” with the “least ruminative jobs” lazy?

But they are excreable offal that should die or “be dealt blows” for not being born with the appropriate traits. You even oppose futuristic interventions to help them (their children actually) out of their morass because it is “theft”.