Socialized Education

[surfinpure]

Par for the course – there are some here who invent what they wanted you to say, and then attack you for saying it.

Perhaps, then, I am wasting my effort. Thank you for reminding me, vern. I do tend to take for granted that all dialogue will be carried out in a sincere manner. It is unfortunate that a fruitful discussion is sometimes impossible. I believe, upon reflection, that I have stated my case adequately on this thread, and it is best to disengage now while the atmosphere remains somewhat charitable, and leave others to draw conclusions however they will.

A happy Saturday to all! :tiphat:

In Christ, our Redeemer,

mary

 

[vern_humphrey]

Perhaps, then, I am wasting my effort. Thank you for reminding me, vern. I do tend to take for granted that all dialogue will be carried out in a sincere manner. It is unfortunate that a fruitful discussion is sometimes impossible. I believe, upon reflection, that I have stated my case adequately on this thread, and it is best to disengage now while the atmosphere remains somewhat charitable, and leave others to draw conclusions however they will.

A happy Saturday to all! :tiphat:

In Christ, our Redeemer,

mary

Sometimes you have to say something over and over and over, so people will know what you really said.

It is my custom, when someone starts out saying, “But your position is . . .” to ask them to post a quote where I said that.

So far, no one making such accusations has been able to find such a quote of mine.

 

[strngrnrth]

At the same time, a recent study found that the 50 largest cities have a combined high school dropout rate of about 50%.

Clearly, socialized education has failed.

Indeed, typically around three-quarters of HS dropouts return and get their diplomas another time, in another way, generally more efficiently and happily than if they had been forced to stay in school all along. No one-size-fits-all childrearing will ever be good for most people. Some people are ready to finish HS at 10, others at 44. Some learn best when independent. Some need to ask their own questions, seek their own answers, and request the tests they feel ready for. Many people can learn only in a real-world, learn-by-doing setting. A large number need privacy to absorb much information. Another large group need attention to pay attention. We’re all different, and we are born different, we don’t just become that way at 15, 16 or 18. From the start, kids and parents need choices. Buying a neighbor’s bureaucratically-budgeted education and then using the little money you have left to fund your own is not a fair choice. That is why I believe in charities running thousands of kinds of schools, each of which is totally optional. The government is there to provide necessary resources and infrastructures, such as streetlights and aid to the severely disabled and help for victims of disasters and crimes. Raising children is something most mammal mamas and a lot of mammal papas can do without being forced.

 

[SpiritMeadow]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v321/surf(name removed by moderator)ure/Imthecatholictheliberalmediawarnedy.jpg

I always wondered where I was going to get to use this graphic.

Fraid not. I had no idea you existed until I came to this forum. You would have never have convinced me that thinking catholic people would be in association with the nutcases of the evangelical right in the Baptist world. Never!

 

[SpiritMeadow]

Indeed, so that would make you part of the Left wing Catholic and Left wing Atheist alliance which you are so proud of.

I sure admit to be left wing in the Church, but as far as I know, I’ve had no contact with any altheist alliance. I’ve never even heard of such a thing. What is their agenda? It certainly can’t have anything to do with the Catholic church …and as for the rolleyes…lol…same back atcha.

 

[vern_humphrey]

Indeed, typically around three-quarters of HS dropouts return and get their diplomas another time, in another way, generally more efficiently and happily than if they had been forced to stay in school all along.

You are correct that many droupouts get GEDs or diplomas later. I would question the conclusion that they do it “more efficiently and happily” – given the costs associated with trying to support themselves in the interm, and the difficulties they encounter in life.

No one-size-fits-all childrearing will ever be good for most people. Some people are ready to finish HS at 10, others at 44. Some learn best when independent. Some need to ask their own questions, seek their own answers, and request the tests they feel ready for. Many people can learn only in a real-world, learn-by-doing setting. A large number need privacy to absorb much information. Another large group need attention to pay attention. We’re all different, and we are born different, we don’t just become that way at 15, 16 or 18. From the start, kids and parents need choices. Buying a neighbor’s bureaucratically-budgeted education and then using the little money you have left to fund your own is not a fair choice. That is why I believe in charities running thousands of kinds of schools, each of which is totally optional. The government is there to provide necessary resources and infrastructures, such as streetlights and aid to the severely disabled and help for victims of disasters and crimes. Raising children is something most mammal mamas and a lot of mammal papas can do without being forced.

It sounds like you’re trying to explain the problem out of existance.

The fact is, nearly half of all high school students in our 50 largest cities fail to graduate. That can hardly be called “good.”

Many who do graduate cannot really read or write – and that’s not “good,” either.

The percentage of dropouts and functional illiterates amongst minorities is much higher than among majority students. That’s not “good,” either.

Come to Arkansas, and I can show you whole counties with adult functional illiteracy rates over 50% – then look around those counties and see if you would consider that “good.”

associatedcontent.com/article/183792/more_than_onethird_of_washington_dc.html

A study produced by The State Education Agency has found that 36% of Washington D.C. residents are functionally illiterate. People who are functionally illiterate have some ability to read and write, but not enough to be able to fully function in everyday life. They have difficulty with crucial tasks such as filling out job applications, reading maps, understanding bus schedules, reading newspaper articles, etc.

Nationally, the rate of functional illiteracy is 21%.

 

[strngrnrth]

You are correct that many droupouts get GEDs or diplomas later. I would question the conclusion that they do it “more efficiently and happily” – given the costs associated with trying to support themselves in the interm, and the difficulties they encounter in life.

It sounds like you’re trying to explain the problem out of existance.

The fact is, nearly half of all high school students in our 50 largest cities fail to graduate. That can hardly be called “good.”

Many who do graduate cannot really read or write – and that’s not “good,” either.

The percentage of dropouts and functional illiterates amongst minorities is much higher than among majority students. That’s not “good,” either.

Come to Arkansas, and I can show you whole counties with adult functional illiteracy rates over 50% – then look around those counties and see if you would consider that “good.”

Oh, I totally agree that too many people are illiterate. I can’t believe how many people in college were barely capable of forming a coherent spoken sentence, and this isn’t a big city. But to me, the Education Dept.'s own data on alternative/mature graduation suggest that there are lots of ways to get the knowledge it takes to pass a GED (admittedly a pitifully easy test, which i personally aced at 16 in two short sessions with no prep at all, hung over), and high school as we know it isn’t the best for many people. I go further than criticizing the public funding of education. i criticize the very notion that people between certaina ges are to be judged by what they learn at that time, as if the years before and after were closed to new knowledge (I wasn’t ready for algebra until I was 24, whereas I could read like a preteen at five and at a postgrad college level for fun at nine). I attack the idea that coercing families into releasing their younger generation for a particular period is the only responsible way to prvent ignorance. I challenge the assumption that public schooling prevents a substantial amount of abuse, given how much abuse takes place in schools. I am a very middle-of-the-road voter but the issue of coercive education is one of the few where I must take a radical stance.

 

[vern_humphrey]

Oh, I totally agree that too many people are illiterate. I can’t believe how many people in college were barely capable of forming a coherent spoken sentence, and this isn’t a big city. But to me, the Education Dept.'s own data on alternative/mature graduation suggest that there are lots of ways to get the knowledge it takes to pass a GED (admittedly a pitifully easy test, which i personally aced at 16 in two short sessions with no prep at all, hung over), and high school as we know it isn’t the best for many people.

I see that you make two points here – one is that the Public Education system is not compatible with the student population. If it were, we wouldn’t be having dropouts.

The other is that the standards for a GED (and often for a diploma) are disgracefully low.

Which means, it anything, that available statistics understate the magnitude of the failure.

I go further than criticizing the public funding of education. i criticize the very notion that people between certaina ges are to be judged by what they learn at that time, as if the years before and after were closed to new knowledge (I wasn’t ready for algebra until I was 24, whereas I could read like a preteen at five and at a postgrad college level for fun at nine). I attack the idea that coercing families into releasing their younger generation for a particular period is the only responsible way to prvent ignorance. I challenge the assumption that public schooling prevents a substantial amount of abuse, given how much abuse takes place in schools. I am a very middle-of-the-road voter but the issue of coercive education is one of the few where I must take a radical stance.

Again, you seem to be saying (forgive me if I seem to put words in your mouth) that the system is poorly designed for the student populaton – it doesn’t adapt to their needs and rates of development.

But we could pile Odessa upon Pelion to show how bad the system is. Here in Arkansas, for example, 54% of those high school graduates who go on to college (that is, the best and the brightest) have to take remedial subjects – or to put it another way, they graduated from high school without ever achieving a high school level of performance.

 

[BamaRider]

Fraid not. I had no idea you existed until I came to this forum. You would have never have convinced me that thinking catholic people would be in association with the nutcases of the evangelical right in the Baptist world. Never!

M’am, I think you might owe those folks (Evals and Baptists) an apology. They may not have the fullness of the truth, but most are quite normal folks, that vote their convictions, unlike some Catholics.

And why would you find it strange to see a Catholic and Eval vote for pro life candidate, with a anti gay rights agenda? That alliance has determined all but 2 elections in the last 30 years. The only exceptions being Carter in 76 and Clinton in 92, because both men were Southern and were able to peel away votes because of that fact, although Clinton never won an election with more then 47% of the vote (thank Ross Perot). I think he won in 92 with 43%of the vote?

 

[strngrnrth]

I see that you make two points here – one is that the Public Education system is not compatible with the student population. If it were, we wouldn’t be having dropouts.

The other is that the standards for a GED (and often for a diploma) are disgracefully low.

Which means, it anything, that available statistics understate the magnitude of the failure.

Again, you seem to be saying (forgive me if I seem to put words in your mouth) that the system is poorly designed for the student populaton – it doesn’t adapt to their needs and rates of development.

But we could pile Odessa upon Pelion to show how bad the system is. Here in Arkansas, for example, 54% of those high school graduates who go on to college (that is, the best and the brightest) have to take remedial subjects – or to put it another way, they graduated from high school without ever achieving a high school level of performance.

When college attendance peaked in the late 1990’s, I heard a statistic that I combined with another and came to the conclusion that somewhere around one in six college-educated people was still illiterate or near-illiterate. They were being robbed, first of their tax money, then of tuition, on the pretext they would gain advantages they didn’t gain, because those advantages are in the knowledge people get when they read. A degree the graduate can’t read is worth nothing.
I would far rather contribute to a foundation for literacy with a proven track record and publicly accountable spending than to the sinkhole that already swallowed years of my youth.
My mother taught me to read. It took no time and she was a dropout herself at the time. I was interested, free to experiment with the material my way, and old enough. I was four.
Many teachers scolded me for failing in math. Finally I saw myself as unable to understand math. Then when I was 24, a few casual friends helped me, mostly over coffee, and ideas started clicking into place. I believe that place just hadn’t been in my brain before that age. I was ready at last. Now I love algebra. It lets me take any two numbers and find out whatever relevant quantity I want to know. In these and so many other subjects in my life, learning outside school happened so fast, while inside school it was so slow it wasn’t fun. But learning is fun. I’d even say fun is learning. Everything fun involves coming away knowing more or understanding more. But learning, when it’s slowed down beyond the point where flow breaks down, becomes frustration – a loss of flow. Frustration builds rage and fear, and then wears out the emotional gears and leads to mindlessness and daydreaming. That’s how I experienced it.
On the bullying thread I posted a little about how I think education ought to be done.

 

[vern_humphrey]

When college attendance peaked in the late 1990’s, I heard a statistic that I combined with another and came to the conclusion that somewhere around one in six college-educated people was still illiterate or near-illiterate. They were being robbed, first of their tax money, then of tuition, on the pretext they would gain advantages they didn’t gain, because those advantages are in the knowledge people get when they read. A degree the graduate can’t read is worth nothing.

I can’t vouch for the statistic – but I wouldn’t be surprised. Here in Arkansas (and I would bet in many another state) we have certified teachers who are functionally illiterate.

I would far rather contribute to a foundation for literacy with a proven track record and publicly accountable spending than to the sinkhole that already swallowed years of my youth.
My mother taught me to read. It took no time and she was a dropout herself at the time. I was interested, free to experiment with the material my way, and old enough. I was four.
Many teachers scolded me for failing in math. Finally I saw myself as unable to understand math. Then when I was 24, a few casual friends helped me, mostly over coffee, and ideas started clicking into place. I believe that place just hadn’t been in my brain before that age. I was ready at last. Now I love algebra. It lets me take any two numbers and find out whatever relevant quantity I want to know. In these and so many other subjects in my life, learning outside school happened so fast, while inside school it was so slow it wasn’t fun. But learning is fun. I’d even say fun is learning. Everything fun involves coming away knowing more or understanding more. But learning, when it’s slowed down beyond the point where flow breaks down, becomes frustration – a loss of flow. Frustration builds rage and fear, and then wears out the emotional gears and leads to mindlessness and daydreaming. That’s how I experienced it.

I work with adult literacy – and believe me, it’s a tough row to hoe. Many people who leave school unable to read are convinced they** can’t** learn. That’s a difficult obstacle to overcome.

On the bullying thread I posted a little about how I think education ought to be done.

It certainly ought to be more open than it is now, with schools competing for students, and living or dying on the results.

 

[rlg94086]

I sure admit to be left wing in the Church, but as far as I know, I’ve had no contact with any altheist alliance. I’ve never even heard of such a thing. What is their agenda? It certainly can’t have anything to do with the Catholic church …and as for the rolleyes…lol…same back atcha.

I didn’t say anything about an “atheist alliance.” I was speaking of the alliance between Left wing Catholics and atheists on a lot of the things you believe in. Are you saying that Left wing Catholics will not join atheists and other anti-Catholics on the Left in opposing school vouchers, supporting pro-choice laws, etc.?

Your “shame” for Right wing Catholics and evangelicals voting for and supporting the same things is hypocritical. It doesn’t bother you in the least to vote for and support the same things as anti-Catholics on the Left.

 

[BamaRider]

Vern pointed out this alarming stat-

I can’t vouch for the statistic – but I wouldn’t be surprised. Here in Arkansas (and I would bet in many another state) we have certified teachers who are functionally illiterate.

Is not anyone held accountable there for the fact a “teacher” can’t read and write and worst given a* job??*

 

[vern_humphrey]

Is not anyone held accountable there for the fact a “teacher” can’t read and write and worst given a* job??*

In one county, I was told, “The chemical plant and the school district are the only two employers in this county.”

Now think about that – if the school district is one of “the only two employers in the county,” what is the real mission of the school district?

Why, to provide jobs, of course! And to provide them regardless of any other consideration. And since school districts are political entities, guess how the jobs get handed out?

 

[SpiritMeadow]

I didn’t say anything about an “atheist alliance.” I was speaking of the alliance between Left wing Catholics and atheists on a lot of the things you believe in. Are you saying that Left wing Catholics will not join atheists and other anti-Catholics on the Left in opposing school vouchers, supporting pro-choice laws, etc.?

Your “shame” for Right wing Catholics and evangelicals voting for and supporting the same things is hypocritical. It doesn’t bother you in the least to vote for and support the same things as anti-Catholics on the Left.

Certainly left wing Catholics join with many other groups who are not Catholic in opposing or pushing for various pieces of legislation that we all find appropriate for the greater good of the majority of citizens. Sorry but your post did in fact use the words atheist alliance. Atheists like many other citizens have good ideas about a lot of things.

But yes, I find it most disconcerting that right wing Catholics join right wing evangelicals on two issues, abortion and gay rights. That would be fine, but for the fact that universally this extreme side of protestantism considers Catholicism a cult, all Catholics damned, and considers that the Church is the whore of Babylon. I’ve engaged in tons of debates with these folks and I know it to be true. So I do find it an unholy alliance. Finding much of anything in common with them would cause me to question immediately my position. I would assume it must be wrong. Look around this forum and you will find that a significant number of new Catholics who are joining the church are old fundamentalists. Somebody is not telling them that their attitudes are wrong, and they are the biggest influence to me at least in this odd reactionary growth within the Church. I am aware that at one time, “traditional” catholics in America were embarassed at the liberality of the American Church. We were not like the Church of the old country, and not as good. It’s amusing because Italians in Italy go to church way less than we, and are getting much more liberal.

This extreme right wing philosophy only seems to engage and entice the extreme right wing protestant. It’s creepy.

While I find that some atheists have made fun of my faith, I have no believe that they wish to destroy anyone’s faith. they simply don’t want it determining their lives in the public arena, and in that I fully agree. We have made that quite clear in our Constitution that people’s faith is their business, not the business of Government.

 

[vern_humphrey]

I’ve engaged in tons of debates with these folks and I know it to be true.

And you approached these people in the same spirit of Christian charity and open-mindedness you exhibit on these forums?

You didn’t call them “creepy?”

 

[rlg94086]

Certainly left wing Catholics join with many other groups who are not Catholic in opposing or pushing for various pieces of legislation that we all find appropriate for the greater good of the majority of citizens. Sorry but your post did in fact use the words atheist alliance. Atheists like many other citizens have good ideas about a lot of things.

Yes, the words happened to be next to each other, but I was speaking about an alliance between atheists (and other non-Catholics) and Left wing Catholics on certain issues, not an “atheist alliance.” You apparently misunderstood my statement.

But yes, I find it most disconcerting that right wing Catholics join right wing evangelicals on two issues, abortion and gay rights. That would be fine, but for the fact that universally this extreme side of protestantism considers Catholicism a cult, all Catholics damned, and considers that the Church is the whore of Babylon. I’ve engaged in tons of debates with these folks and I know it to be true. So I do find it an unholy alliance. Finding much of anything in common with them would cause me to question immediately my position. I would assume it must be wrong. Look around this forum and you will find that a significant number of new Catholics who are joining the church are old fundamentalists. Somebody is not telling them that their attitudes are wrong, and they are the biggest influence to me at least in this odd reactionary growth within the Church. I am aware that at one time, “traditional” catholics in America were embarassed at the liberality of the American Church. We were not like the Church of the old country, and not as good. It’s amusing because Italians in Italy go to church way less than we, and are getting much more liberal.

This extreme right wing philosophy only seems to engage and entice the extreme right wing protestant. It’s creepy.

While I find that some atheists have made fun of my faith, I have no believe that they wish to destroy anyone’s faith. they simply don’t want it determining their lives in the public arena, and in that I fully agree. We have made that quite clear in our Constitution that people’s faith is their business, not the business of Government.

You have got to be kidding! Have you read the works of Richard Dawkins? LOL. I could make similar statements about Evangelical Christians, because many of them are not hostile toward Catholics, even though they disagree with us on our faith. Your statement that they “universally” consider Catholicism a cult is just plain ridiculous.

Your hatred for the Right has blinded you to the fact that Left wing Catholics voting with atheists and other non-Catholics is no different than Right wing Catholics voting with Evangelicals and other non-Catholics. You feel “shame” for people on the Right who disagree in their faith voting together, because they disagree with you…that is the only reason. It’s your own personal balance issues, not ours.

 

[vern_humphrey]

While we’re on the subject, I once had someone on these forums contact me by private mail and order me not to participate in any thread he entered.

Talk about creeping me out!

 

[goofyjim]

While we’re on the subject, I once had someone on these forums contact me by private mail and order me not to participate in any thread he entered.

Talk about creeping me out!

Did you report it to the mods? I believe that would have been grounds for dismissal.

 

[that1dude]

Every *child *should have the right to an education because that enables them to be independant as adults. I’m sorry you don’t want to have to help out with that. It might come back to you though when you need employees who can read…

I understand the sentiment, but those of us who don’t believe in tax-subsidized schooling think that in a more free-market economy education would be affordable and even provided by private charities to those in need.