V
vern_humphrey
Guest
Who put you in charge of their lives?
You’re wrong – and it is wonderful.
- Status
B
boppaid
Guest
No one. You brought these women into the deabate. I simply needed the details in order to properly debate it.
Again, I’m sorry I upset you.
V
vern_humphrey
Guest
You didn’t upset me – you don’t have the power to do that.
But you did make some snide accusations against some hardworking ladies that my wife and I are helping to build a better life for themselves and their children.
B
boppaid
Guest
Good. I’m glad. I was upset at the thought that I might have upset you. You sounded upset. 
I didn’t mean my comments to sound snide. You brought them into this debate, and I was trying to debate. To do that, I needed details, because as a busy working mother who is going to school myself, I just cannot fathom doing that without a spouse’s help and while working full time.Rather than provide me the details, you got very defensive. I understand that, because you obviously care for these women a great deal. I’m glad you do! And I 'm glad that you help them. But you can’t bring them into the debate without expecting me to debate the scenario. You knew I was going to, because you knew my position.
So, again, I’m sorry.
I didn’t mean my comments to sound snide. You brought them into this debate, and I was trying to debate. To do that, I needed details, because as a busy working mother who is going to school myself, I just cannot fathom doing that without a spouse’s help and while working full time.Rather than provide me the details, you got very defensive. I understand that, because you obviously care for these women a great deal. I’m glad you do! And I 'm glad that you help them. But you can’t bring them into the debate without expecting me to debate the scenario. You knew I was going to, because you knew my position.
So, again, I’m sorry.
E
emily47017
Guest
obviously i don’t know any of vern’s wife’s proteges, but can let y’all know about my friend that i mentioned (i think it was this thread, or maybe the “deserving poor” thread?). she was raising three boys while working full time and going to school full time, and basically doing the whole thing without any help from their jerk of a dad (who had divorced her against her wishes) – her kids are:
- eldest: 13 at time of divorce, very mellow and successful
- middle: 7 at time of divorce, serious anxiety problem, former drug dealer, high school dropout
- youngest: 3 at time of divorce, drug user, high school dropout, has already done time in juvie for a borderline violent crime
there are a lot of conclusions that can be drawn here, and she was doing everything she could with what she had… but i think it’s safe to say the kids could have used a little more parenting.
V
vern_humphrey
Guest
Okay – let’s move on. These women are doing a good job with their children, far better than parents who aren’t trying to get ahead.Good. I’m glad. I was upset at the thought that I might have upset you. You sounded upset.
I didn’t mean my comments to sound snide. You brought them into this debate, and I was trying to debate.
V
vern_humphrey
Guest
I’m not sure any conclusions can be drawn from such a small sample. To accuse the mother in this case seems callous and unchristian.
I can tell you from personal experience that to not have a father at a young age is traumatic, all by itself. I can also show you families where some children turn out well, others go bad, even with two parents.
I
Indyann
Guest
I do not want to get in the middle of the debate here, but I would give anything to have the 3 years back that I tried to raise 4 children on my own, go to school and work full-time.
I do not think it is possible to do without consequences for the children. I did what I had to do at the time, but I would never do it over again.
B
boppaid
Guest
Well, another debatable point. What does it mean to “get ahead”? Do you mean financially? I think a parent who is working to provide support as best as he or she can for the family while ALSO ensuring the MOST quality time and active involvement with the children’s life is also getting ahead. And, to me, to get ahead with being actively involved in your children’s lives (sports events, after school activities, academics, field trips, etc.) is far more important than to "get ahead’ financially. Even if it means government help. Now, if a single parent can do all that, while going to school and working, (and if you say they can, than I can’t argue against that…I’m sure you would know more than I), then I think they have the best of both worlds!
It sounds like we dont have an argument anymore. I think it’s wonderful that these women you know can have it all. I had a hard time believing it because I feel stretched so thin with a lot more time on my hands, but that’s my problem and my ineptness. I’m glad they can.
V
vern_humphrey
Guest
Are you** still** on this kick? That hard-working women who are getting an education and supporing their children are somehow harming the children?
B
boppaid
Guest
If you read my post as a whole, you’d get my ENTIRE point…not just the few sentences you pulled out of context. I also said that I admire the women you spoke of.
Look, your debating tactics are not on par with how I prefer to debate. So, I’m stepping out . This is silly.
V
vern_humphrey
Guest
Indeed it is. I thought we had agreed to stop the silliness.If you read my post as a whole, you’d get my ENTIRE point…not just the few sentences you pulled out of context. I also said that I admire the women you spoke of.
Look, your debating tactics are not on par with how I prefer to debate. So, I’m stepping out . This is silly.
E
emily47017
Guest
oh gosh, she’s my dearest friend and i’m in no way accusing her of anything. i’m just saying. if the question is whether or not kids suffer when mothers have to work and go to school and don’t have help from the other parent, i can give one example where that might have been the case. she did the best she could.
I
Indyann
Guest
Emily, I so agree. I do not see how anyone could maintain such a rigorous schedule without sacrificing their role as a mother. Of course the kids suffer. Some thirty years later, I would gladly give up financial security to be the mom that my kids needed during their pre-teen years. I feel like they practically raised themselves during the 3-4 years, I was in school.
Unless one has walked in those shoes, they have no idea.
V
vern_humphrey
Guest
So you say it is the mother’s fault?
I have – both my wife and I got degrees after we had children. And we both worked. Neither of my girls suffered from it – in fact, they were better for it, learning good values and habits.
I
Indyann
Guest
What is the mother’s fault?
Could either one of you have done it “on your own” without compromising your role as parent?
Honestly? If so:tiphat:
V
vern_humphrey
Guest
How her children turned out – that was the basic thrust, that she worked, went to school at night, and two of her children wound up using drugs.
We did – I was a soldier. When I was overseas (all my overseas tours were unaccompanied “Hardship” tours) my wife had to manage alone. After I retired I had a job that took me to many odd corners of the world, sometimes for as much as a year at a time.
I
Indyann
Guest
Of course, I did not say that it is the mother’s fault how the children turned out. Who is to say?
And no, you did not do it on your own. You each had the financial and emotional support of the other. Just because you were not physically present, does not mean that your wife “did it on her own”
E
emily47017
Guest
jeez, where are you getting these messages? she had to work full time to put food on the table. she had to go to school to get a good enough job to get off welfare. no one’s accusing her of making the “wrong” decision; she made the only decision there was to make. meanwhile it was rough on the boys. that’s not her fault; it was what it was.
V
vern_humphrey
Guest
Then why do we bring it up? What’s the point of telling us how her children turned out if she isn’t the cause of their problems?
She chose to work – would her children have turned out better if she had stayed home and lived on welfare and charity?
- Status