Society and subjective morality

  • Thread starter Thread starter mymamamary
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
M

mymamamary

Guest
I am sick of society’s subjective mindset on morality.

However, for the sake of discussion:

Let me ask:

Where does society learn to draw the line on subjective morality?, as subjective morality never works… :cool:

Now, for those who want to argue the proponents of subjective morality and say objective morality doesn’t exist, let me leave you another question:

Is the fact that there are no objective truths, objectively true??

(Careful on this question…)
 
Where does society learn to draw the line on subjective morality?
There’s no single line to be drawn – each person gets to draw their own line, and its validity is manifest by its existence. 😉
as subjective morality never works…
But that’s an objective statement – or, at best, your own subjective opinion, to which others need not ascribe. If you want to make an assertion that works in their mindset, you’ll need to work harder to find one that ‘sticks’…
Is the fact that there are no objective truths, objectively true??
(Careful on this question…)
I love playing devil’s advocate…

The mere fact that some claim it, subjectively, makes it true to them. If you claim it, as objective truth, then it is so – within your personal (i.e., subjective) frame of reference. So, yes – as long as you specify the appropriate frame of reference, then it’s objectively true!

(In other words, subjective morality can be defined equivalently as a large number of mutally exclusive objective standards.)
 
I am sick of society’s subjective mindset on morality.

However, for the sake of discussion:

Let me ask:

Where does society learn to draw the line on subjective morality?, as subjective morality never works… :cool:
The line is drawn in sand (rather than concrete) so that as society desires it can change the boundaries of morality to better suite itself and its beliefs at that particular moment.
 
The line is drawn in sand (rather than concrete) so that as society desires it can change the boundaries of morality to better suite itself and its beliefs at that particular moment.
Let me ask you if society changed boundries of morality by simply making us sick to our stomach thinking about an 11 to 12 year old girl getting pregnant?

Your God thought it was a pretty good idea.

But, that is not in any way shape or form gross or offensive. I wonder why?
 
Let me ask you if society changed boundries of morality by simply making us sick to our stomach thinking about an 11 to 12 year old girl getting pregnant?
I see the question mark but what exactly is the question you want to ask me?
Your God thought it was a pretty good idea.
Really? Do you base that assumption on the fact that He created 11 to 12 year old girls that COULD become pregnant? Or perhaps He has spoken to you and actually said that He wants 11 to 12 year old girls to become pregnant. :rolleyes:
But, that is not in any way shape or form gross or offensive. I wonder why?
I believe that you must be in a better position to answer that than I. You appear to be suggesting that you know and understand the mind of God and His intentions better than I do. :cool: As a side note, “I wonder why” is a statement rather than a question and therefore does not need a question mark; unless of course, along with subjective boundaries on morality, you are also in favor of subjective grammar and punctuation. I would warn you however, that if these rules aren’t followed, it becomes more difficult to be understood.👍
 
I am sick of society’s subjective mindset on morality.

However, for the sake of discussion:

Let me ask:

Where does society learn to draw the line on subjective morality?, as subjective morality never works… :cool:

Now, for those who want to argue the proponents of subjective morality and say objective morality doesn’t exist, let me leave you another question:

Is the fact that there are no objective truths, objectively true??

(Careful on this question…)
I am one of the people who will say that objective morality doesn’t exist. I can’t answer your question that follows as I"m too stupid to understand it at present.

The reason I say that objective morality doesn’t exist is because I don’t think that enough people would agree on what objective morality is in order to use the agreed upon objective morality as any type of jumping off point to have society work.

God Bless,
Bill
 
Where does society learn to draw the line on subjective morality?, as subjective morality never works… :cool:
Regardless of whether there really exists some set of riles called “Objective Morality*” there is an obstacle of how this morality cam be known. Some have said it can be known through the bible. But interpretations of the bible have been fluid enough to at times support the killing of people for rather m(name removed by moderator)r offenses and the subjugation of other groups of people for being part of the “wrong” religion or the “wrong” tribe, and parts of the imperialist movement. Regardless of if you are a proponent of objective or subjective morality it is something that humans have to figure out. There are Objective Morality proponents that disagree with what rules are included in that morality. So agreeing that there is an objective morality doesn’t automatically mean there are no conflicts.

People can at times be wrong. So there may be various strategies for resolving disagreements on morality. Some will ignore the disagreements. Some will engage in verbal and written exchanges to attempt to resolve the disagreements. Some will engage in injurying or killing to resolve the disagreement. “Winning” in these various strategies doesn’t necessarily indicate that the propositions of ones morality had a higher truth value. It may be helpful if there were some resolution or verification strategy that would help resolve disagreements or that could be used to determine truth value.

Pardon my mistakes. Sent from my mobile device.
 
I am one of the people who will say that objective morality doesn’t exist. I can’t answer your question that follows as I"m too stupid to understand it at present.

The reason I say that objective morality doesn’t exist is because I don’t think that enough people would agree on what objective morality is in order to use the agreed upon objective morality as any type of jumping off point to have society work.

God Bless,
Bill
As used in these forums, Objective morality sometimes refers to the subjective morality of a specific entity (Yahweh). Other times I’ve seen it said to be an attribute like mass or length that is observer independent (ignore effects of relativity for now). But unlike those attributes, for which we have rulers and scales, we don’t have a ruler for comparing systems morality. We do have varrying amounts of empathy and knowledge. I think these are often used in weighing moral decisions.

I think that ones morality is impacted by her knowledge. There have been times and places where it was thought animals cant really feel pain and suffer, or that african slaves didn’t have souls. These views influenced how people treated animals and slaves. In modern times it is generally accepted that animals can feel pain. Because of this there are some that are vegitarians for moral reasons. This has happened both from infdividual decisions and is also a part of some eastern philosophies. I was having a discussion with some one at Microsoft’s //build/ conference yesterday and the stories he has seen on the conditions in which Apple products are manufactured has him wanting more information on how other products are manufactured so that he can minimize his support of such poor conditions. These are moral decisions that individuals are developing on their own based on available information. Yes, these are subjective. Those with less awareness (or less empathy) may decide differently.

Even eith a lot of information there are difficulties in making moral decisions. A decision may have multiple impacts and consequences on different people. Take for example being in the position of making decisions on public policy. Those policies may result in positive outcomes for some and negative outcomes for others. How does one decide who will get the bad consequences when the best outcomes for various groups of people compete.

Pardon my mistakes. Sent from my mobile device.
 
I am sick of society’s subjective mindset on morality.

However, for the sake of discussion:

Let me ask:

Where does society learn to draw the line on subjective morality?, as subjective morality never works… :cool:

Now, for those who want to argue the proponents of subjective morality and say objective morality doesn’t exist, let me leave you another question:

Is the fact that there are no objective truths, objectively true??

(Careful on this question…)
What I notice is that it can be easy to confuse subjective morality (“morality is whatever I want it to be”) with an objective morality that is different than one’s own.

Simply stated – if others believe something is morally permissible that you believe is morally forbidden, it can easily appear that they are subjectivists.

Consider the difference in the morality of a Catholic and an observant Jew, for instance.

Observant Jew: “the consumption of pork is against the commandment of God and is intrinsically immoral.”

Catholic: “I believe the consumption of pork is neither moral, nor immoral. Our religion believes that all meats are clean. Whether or not to consume pork is not a matter of morality at all, but of subjective preference.”

Observant Jew: “circumcision is commanded by God, as per the Bible.”

Catholic: “circumcision is neither moral nor immoral. It is a matter of subjective preference for parents, whether they want to circumcise their male children, or not.”

From the perspective of the observant Jew, the Catholic may indeed seem rather relativistic in his thinking. In reality, however, the Catholic does have an objective morality – quite rigorous, in its own terms – simply one that is different than the objective morality of the observant Jew.

Now apply this to secular sphere:

–“rape, pedophilia, child abuse, murder, theft, bullying, racism, intolerance, bigotry are objectively wrong” (our secular society comes down extremely hard on these behaviors and does not at all accept that they are a matter of subjective preference)

–“a gay relationship is neither intrinsically moral nor immoral, but a matter of subjective preference”

You can say that secular society had no *right *to proclaim that gay relationships were no longer a matter of morality, but this is not dissimilar to the Jew who claims that Christians had no right to change worship from Saturday to Sunday; to lift the prohibition against pork; or to make circumcision optional. To the observant Jew, these are essential tenets of morality that were decreed by God Himself.

What you’ll also see are secular moralists who claim that this change in morality was done in the name of objective moral standards, such as tolerance, justice, equality, and freedom from bigotry or discrimination. As we know, there is much idealism on both sides of the issue.

So an objective morality still exists, in the secular sphere; but it is certainly non-Christian. And – as with the Catholic versus the observant Jew – there are behaviors that the Christian believes are intrinsically immoral, that the secular humanist believes are neither intrinsically moral nor immoral, but a matter of subjective preference.
 
Generally speaking, when people talk about “objective morality,” they end up confusing the real issue. What they usually mean to refer to is the basis for morality being objective (or not).
 
Of course not, it was just a brain teaser for those subjectivists… 😃

take Math for example.

Objective truth: 1+1=2. Not 54, 56, or 13.
I don’t think that’s a parallel. That mathematical operation can be unambiguously demonstrated and verified through physical evidence with sets of objects. What would the parallel be for codified behavioural prescriptions?
 
The reason I say that objective morality doesn’t exist is because I don’t think that enough people would agree on what objective morality is in order to use the agreed upon objective morality as any type of jumping off point to have society work.
Bill,

You seem to be saying that a thing doesn’t exist until enough people recognize it. Did the truths that the founding fathers of the U.S. exist, prior to the development of the Declaration of Independence? Of course they did!

So… whereas there might not be agreement or acceptance of an objective moral code, that cannot be used as a proof that one does not exist… 😉
 
take Math for example.

Objective truth: 1+1=2. Not 54, 56, or 13.
Hmm.

Yet, 1+1 = 10, too!

And, 1+1 = 11, just as validly!

So, before you claim ‘objective truth’, you’re still going to have to set the rules … and if you don’t, you can come up with a whole range of ‘true’ answers, which – if you’re not careful – can come off sounding as if there’s no objectivity, only subjectivity!
 
Bill,

You seem to be saying that a thing doesn’t exist until enough people recognize it.
I took it as a declaration of ambiguity. After all, its difficult to evaluate the truth value of a proposition until it is understood what is meant by the proposition. Not every one uses the phase “objective morals” to refer to the same or at least compatible systems of rules.
 
I don’t think that’s a parallel. That mathematical operation can be unambiguously demonstrated and verified through physical evidence with sets of objects. What would the parallel be for codified behavioural prescriptions?
The natural moral law.
Unnessescary killing is seen as wrong by all cultures. So is theft. etc. etc.
 
I think it is a bit of a simplification to imply that just because someone has a subjective view of morality, they either have no morality or they just drew an arbitrary line in the sand and said ‘this is right, this is wrong’. Subjectivism and relativism aren’t the same thing. Subjectivism speaks of perspective and says that morality pertains to a subject. Each person has their own perspective on morality. My moral perspective is personal in as much as it is the result of my experience. But that doesn’t mean that it is arbitrary, it still is in context of the real world. I am not living in a vaccuum, in which I can come up with abstract rules of morality that apply to all cases and all worlds. I am a man who lives on earth, in the US in the 21st century. I am a man within time. My morality will be an expression of that context.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top