Society and subjective morality

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The mere fact that some claim it, subjectively, makes it true to them. If you claim it, as objective truth, then it is so – within your personal (i.e., subjective) frame of reference. So, yes – as long as you specify the appropriate frame of reference, then it’s objectively true!

(In other words, subjective morality can be defined equivalently as a large number of mutally exclusive objective standards.)
You have to recognize the value of frame of reference, because it is the state of the world. Each of us really does have our own frame of reference and we don’t all see things the same. We are colored by history and experience. You can’t remove a man or a culture from the context of their history and say, ‘you should think like this’.
 
You have to recognize the value of frame of reference, because it is the state of the world. Each of us really does have our own frame of reference and we don’t all see things the same. We are colored by history and experience. You can’t remove a man or a culture from the context of their history and say, ‘you should think like this’.
Agreed. However, you can’t take the fact that there are distinct frames of reference and extrapolate that there’s no such thing as an objective reality that the subjective experiences only approximate…
 
The natural moral law.
Unnessescary killing is seen as wrong by all cultures. So is theft. etc. etc.
But how does that work? I’ve seen many an behaviour set justified under the label of it being more natural. Such as the prohibition against people different ethnicity being able to marry in the USA until 1956, among other restrictions said to be derived from nature. I don’t think it provides the same level of certitude that some one can achieve in verifying the truth value of a mathematical proposition. It seems that there is some possible (if not likely) interpretation differences in the application of “natural moral law.” Whereas the mathematical operations are mechanistic; not only can it be performed by an automaton, but early computer science and computer engineering students sometimes must design and build machines to do this. I really don’t think that evaluating the truth value of mathematical propositions and that of moral propositions are parallels to each other.
 
But how does that work? I’ve seen many an behaviour set justified under the label of it being more natural. Such as the prohibition against people different ethnicity being able to marry in the USA until 1956, among other restrictions said to be derived from nature. I don’t think it provides the same level of certitude that some one can achieve in verifying the truth value of a mathematical proposition. It seems that there is some possible (if not likely) interpretation differences in the application of “natural moral law.” Whereas the mathematical operations are mechanistic; not only can it be performed by an automaton, but early computer science and computer engineering students sometimes must design and build machines to do this. I really don’t think that evaluating the truth value of mathematical propositions and that of moral propositions are parallels to each other.
Not quite, but, The Moral law is deeper. It is deep enough for us to think days and nights over, but never figure out, yet understandable enough for the tribal man to understand. You are correct, some people would figure Natural Moral law to be called something different, so their interpretation and naming of it would be different, but there is a standard. Murder, like I said, is a standard throughout the board. Killing without a reason is wrong and everyone knows it. So is stealing.
 
…] yet understandable enough for the tribal man to understand. …] but there is a standard. Murder, like I said, is a standard throughout the board. Killing without a reason is wrong and everyone knows it. So is stealing.
To borrow the language of a medical student writing on secular morality in general you will find little disagreement on “primal morality.” That is morality on actions that invoke reponses of survival insticts (rape and murder would fall intp these). With a little self projection (and empathy) one might conclude that she does not like to be deprived of her own belongings and figure that other prople may feel the same. In general when I hear of people talking about disagreements in morality they are rarely taking about these things (those rare cases are usually about unusual scenarios, such as post-disaster when there are no stores open and some one must make a decision to steal food since there are no operational stores available tolegitamently sell food).

Disagreements that I have seen on morality usually touch on victimless crimes, prohibitions on an action a person wants to do to him or her self, or prohibitions or obligations from religious sources.

Masturbation, working on Sunday, an ill person self terminating, and some other items that may be considered victimless crimes would fall into this domain. Reactions to parents engaging in behaviours that may be harmful to their children because they are following a religious commandmend are also in this area. There have been children that have suffered and died because their parents thought that seeking medical treatment would be a declaration of a lack of faith in God; there isnt agreement on rather to allow these parents to exercise their faith or to disregaurd tjeir faith and attempt to rescie the children. Are these type of problems in the domain of “Natural Morality?”
 
Not quite, but, The Moral law is deeper. It is deep enough for us to think days and nights over, but never figure out, yet understandable enough for the tribal man to understand. You are correct, some people would figure Natural Moral law to be called something different, so their interpretation and naming of it would be different, but there is a standard. Murder, like I said, is a standard throughout the board. Killing without a reason is wrong and everyone knows it. So is stealing.
That there are universal codes of human behavior – from a historical standpoint – seems generally agreed upon. What isn’t agreed upon, of course, is whether these social taboos point to moral laws of the universe itself. Language, as well, is universal to human beings – as is artistic expression – but this may tell us more about our make-up as human beings, than about anything external to us.

The universal social prohibitions or taboos, as I see it, are:

–against murder (with exceptions that are still considered socially acceptable)
–against rape
–against stealing
–against incest (with exceptions that are still considered socially acceptable, such as among the rulers of ancient Egypt or, for that matter, the rulers of Europe; or in the allowance for Europeans and Americans, until fairly recently, to marry their first cousins)
–against cannibalism (the taboo of consuming one’s own species, again with exceptions – for example, the Carib Indians consumed the flesh of their enemies)
–against mingling with outsiders (xenophobia); traces of this taboo against being different come out in the most mundane of ways, anything from anti-immigrant sentiment (“they take our jobs, they don’t speak our language”) to the uncanny ability of children to identify the “misfit” of the group and to gang up on him with merciless determination; it also may explain the taboo that existed in American society as regards the mixing of races
–against homosexuality (an elusive taboo – is it in the same class as the prohibition against incest, or is it more akin to xenophobia and fear of those who are different?)
–against certain foods (which foods were taboo, was almost incidental)

In addition, the following appear to be nearly universal:

–male dominance (patriarchy, just as in the societies of most primates - the “alpha male”)
–social hierarchy and social inequality (the “pecking order” or the totem pole, whereby “all men are not created equal”)

Some of these natural or seemingly innate aspects of human behavior seem profoundly social and constructive; others, ironically, appear anti-social and destructive; or, merely, appear to be innate human prejudices. For example, food-related taboos have been done away with in our modern societies, for the most part, and the only manner in which we retain a semblance of these taboos is that certain foods are known to be healthy, others unhealthy. Other than this, the remaining dietary taboos are that against cannibalism, and the taboo – a new one, actually – against consuming domestic pets (which are an extension of the human family).

The tendency towards racism may be innate in human beings – an innate xenophobia – but we now consider this an immoral tendency; our sense of morality ironically consists in overcoming this tendency to fear those who are different. With anti-immigrant sentiment, there are more rationalizations involved; as mentioned above, “they are a threat to the economy; can’t speak the language”–and it certainly doesn’t help if they look different or alien, as well (the color of their skin, the way they dress, etc.).
 
That there are universal codes of human behavior – from a historical standpoint – seems generally agreed upon. What isn’t agreed upon, of course, is whether these social taboos point to moral laws of the universe itself. Language, as well, is universal to human beings – as is artistic expression – but this may tell us more about our make-up as human beings, than about anything external to us.

The universal social prohibitions or taboos, as I see it, are:

–against murder (with exceptions that are still considered socially acceptable)
–against rape
–against stealing
–against incest (with exceptions that are still considered socially acceptable, such as among the rulers of ancient Egypt or, for that matter, the rulers of Europe; or in the allowance for Europeans and Americans, until fairly recently, to marry their first cousins)
–against cannibalism (the taboo of consuming one’s own species, again with exceptions – for example, the Carib Indians consumed the flesh of their enemies)
–against mingling with outsiders (xenophobia); traces of this taboo against being different come out in the most mundane of ways, anything from anti-immigrant sentiment (“they take our jobs, they don’t speak our language”) to the uncanny ability of children to identify the “misfit” of the group and to gang up on him with merciless determination; it also may explain the taboo that existed in American society as regards the mixing of races
–against homosexuality (an elusive taboo – is it in the same class as the prohibition against incest, or is it more akin to xenophobia and fear of those who are different?)
–against certain foods (which foods were taboo, was almost incidental)

In addition, the following appear to be nearly universal:

–male dominance (patriarchy, just as in the societies of most primates - the “alpha male”)
–social hierarchy and social inequality (the “pecking order” or the totem pole, whereby “all men are not created equal”)

Some of these natural or seemingly innate aspects of human behavior seem profoundly social and constructive; others, ironically, appear anti-social and destructive; or, merely, appear to be innate human prejudices. For example, food-related taboos have been done away with in our modern societies, for the most part, and the only manner in which we retain a semblance of these taboos is that certain foods are known to be healthy, others unhealthy. Other than this, the remaining dietary taboos are that against cannibalism, and the taboo – a new one, actually – against consuming domestic pets (which are an extension of the human family).

The tendency towards racism may be innate in human beings – an innate xenophobia – but we now consider this an immoral tendency; our sense of morality ironically consists in overcoming this tendency to fear those who are different. With anti-immigrant sentiment, there are more rationalizations involved; as mentioned above, “they are a threat to the economy; can’t speak the language”–and it certainly doesn’t help if they look different or alien, as well (the color of their skin, the way they dress, etc.).
Exactly, thank you for lisiting some more objective morals. Things that are seen as bad across the board.
 
I see the question mark but what exactly is the question you want to ask me?

Really? Do you base that assumption on the fact that He created 11 to 12 year old girls that COULD become pregnant? Or perhaps He has spoken to you and actually said that He wants 11 to 12 year old girls to become pregnant. :rolleyes:

I believe that you must be in a better position to answer that than I. You appear to be suggesting that you know and understand the mind of God and His intentions better than I do. :cool: As a side note, “I wonder why” is a statement rather than a question and therefore does not need a question mark; unless of course, along with subjective boundaries on morality, you are also in favor of subjective grammar and punctuation. I would warn you however, that if these rules aren’t followed, it becomes more difficult to be understood.👍
Is morality what your God demands or asks for?
Is God’s word forever?
If so, every parent ought to lock up their 11 to 12 year old daughter just in case “His” will allows them to be impregnated. Of course, no one had a problem with an 11 or 12 year old girl getting pregnant then.
Maybe we are not very moral by thinking that an 11 or 12 year old girl ought to be a girl for some of her life. No childhood at all.
I used to be drawn to the Church because of Mary.
Until I realized how sick it is to support the very idea of a child getting pregnant.
It is your All knowing God that thought it would be a good idea for an 11 to 12 year old to get pregnant and consent to something you would have to be at least 18 years of age to consent to. Tell an 11 to 12 year old that they will become pregnant, and watch their only child die. Tell the rest of the world a loving God made this happen.
 
Is morality what your God demands or asks for?
Is God’s word forever?
If so, every parent ought to lock up their 11 to 12 year old daughter just in case “His” will allows them to be impregnated. Of course, no one had a problem with an 11 or 12 year old girl getting pregnant then.
Maybe we are not very moral by thinking that an 11 or 12 year old girl ought to be a girl for some of her life. No childhood at all.
I used to be drawn to the Church because of Mary.
Until I realized how sick it is to support the very idea of a child getting pregnant.
It is your All knowing God that thought it would be a good idea for an 11 to 12 year old to get pregnant and consent to something you would have to be at least 18 years of age to consent to. Tell an 11 to 12 year old that they will become pregnant, and watch their only child die. Tell the rest of the world a loving God made this happen.
By that logic we can say that because God made human beings who CAN get sick, it is then therefore God’s will that we catch colds. You use strawman arguments and throw them up as defensive walls to protect your personal ideas concerning God. It’s so very sad. 😦
 
Exactly, thank you for lisiting some more objective morals. Things that are seen as bad across the board.
Except that the very fact that we see these things as bad, that we feel they are wrong, that we care whether they are done or not, points to morality itself being a subjective phenomenon. What you seem to be considering as ‘objective’ morality is actually a matter of intersubjectivity.
 
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