Society overstressing grades?

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I’m just wondering if this is not what the OP had in mind with his question
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In case you were wondering, I am the OP. And to answer your question, that was not my original intention. However, I can see how you would think that, and perhaps deep down that is what I was thinking… I’m not sure. I’ll pray about it tonight. I was more or less providing the other additional information in order to provide more of a background of myself :). I’ve already been thinking of the issue of whether society is overstressing grades or not, and I wanted to hear everyone else’s (name removed by moderator)ut on the issue.
 
ProVobis said:
Meant once you make it into high school, your grade school scores become unimportant. Once you make it into college, forget the high school scores. Once you make it to grad school, forget the college scores. Is that what you were asking?
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Yes, that made sense.
 
preb34 said:
In case you were wondering, I am the OP. And to answer your question, that was not my original intention. However, I can see how you would think that, and perhaps deep down that is what I was thinking… I’m not sure. I’ll pray about it tonight. I was more or less providing the other additional information in order to provide more of a background of myself :). I’ve already been thinking of the issue of whether society is overstressing grades or not, and I wanted to hear everyone else’s (name removed by moderator)ut on the issue.
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I’d say that society puts enough value on them with regards to what opportunities that you will get that it is worth making an effort to get them. Once your high school grades have gotten you into a college, only what you actually learned by studying that hard will be of value. It is also worth knowing that you do not want to go for points at the price of losing the regard of instructors who can get you opportunities by their letters of recommendation. Don’t sully any relationships over points or grades. Certainly never be such a fool as to sully your reputation for integrity in the pursuit of grades–but I think this goes without saying with you!

The great dangers of being an “A” student include: it can make you risk-averse and validation-hungry, overly dependent on having a rubric to work from, too used to the idea that there is some “right answer” to the most interesting questions, too used to the idea that if there is a right answer, you are the guy who knows it, too ready to dismiss the creative idea of “lesser” intellects, and too used to the idea that opportunities show up on a calendar, rather than having to be recognized. It is as if you are becoming very good at shooting competitions, but real life is hunting and gathering. Some of the very important skills and habits translate, but some don’t and some you will have to un-learn. Keep an eye out for that.

The pursuit of high grades can also take a disproportionate amount of time away from things with a very real but less quantifiable value. That is part of switching from targets with bulls-eyes to targets that can be eaten if you can sneak up on them, but that can also eat you if you miss. Life is a lot more complicated, but a lot more satisfying. Don’t try to force it to be target practice.
 
Allegra said:
There’s a big difference between last generation’s c-student and this generation’s c-student. Back then, C meant “average”. Now it means, “You totally deserve to fail this class but I’m giving you a break because I know you mom will just call the principal and override me anyway and I don’t want to deal with the drama.”
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Yep, this nails it!

Add: “And your parents will threaten to sue the school because I am “harassing” you and causing you mental anguish by giving you low grades.”

I really feel sorry for teachers. If they try to discipline or correct or even teach something that is difficult to comprehend, students will threaten to sue them if they don’t back off. I know several people who quit teaching because the constant threats of lawsuits unnerved them, and the school administration does NOT back the teachers because they know the lawyers will win because “we must always believe the children.”

Bah.
 
EasterJoy said:
I’d say that society puts enough value on them with regards to what opportunities that you will get that it is worth making an effort to get them. Once your high school grades have gotten you into a college, only what you actually learned by studying that hard will be of value. It is also worth knowing that you do not want to go for points at the price of losing the regard of instructors who can get you opportunities by their letters of recommendation. Don’t sully any relationships over points or grades. Certainly never be such a fool as to sully your reputation for integrity in the pursuit of grades–but I think this goes without saying with you!

The great dangers of being an “A” student include: it can make you risk-averse and validation-hungry, overly dependent on having a rubric to work from, too used to the idea that there is some “right answer” to the most interesting questions, too used to the idea that if there is a right answer, you are the guy who knows it, too ready to dismiss the creative idea of “lesser” intellects, and too used to the idea that opportunities show up on a calendar, rather than having to be recognized. It is as if you are becoming very good at shooting competitions, but real life is hunting and gathering. Some of the very important skills and habits translate, but some don’t and some you will have to un-learn. Keep an eye out for that.

The pursuit of high grades can also take a disproportionate amount of time away from things with a very real but less quantifiable value. That is part of switching from targets with bulls-eyes to targets that can be eaten if you can sneak up on them, but that can also eat you if you miss. Life is a lot more complicated, but a lot more satisfying. Don’t try to force it to be target practice.
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Oh, I don’t know. Both my husband and my daughter were straight A students all the way through college and grad school. (he’s comp sci/math, she’s physical therapy). Never got a B in any class, including all those gen ed classes that had nothing to do with their majors.

They were definitely driven to get As. But they are highly intelligent people who soak up knowledge without a lot of effort and remember it without having to review it. Both of them are auditory learners–they learn best by hearing. Neither of them took a lot of notes (and still don’t when they attend a seminar)–they just listen and remember EVERYTHING.

Not me! I learn best by reading. I would take a novel worth of notes in every class, and go over those notes dozens of times before an exam and condense them into index cards and eventually into short lists and mnemonics and anagrams!

I think there are definite advantages to being an auditory learner. It takes them less time to learn things because they don’t have to read through all those pages of notes and write out index cards and all that other stuff that we reader/learners have to do. They don’t have to actually do “hands on” activities to learn how to do something–they just listen and then they remember and understand it.

They show in their body posture and eyes that they are definitely listening, and this endears them to teachers and others.

OTOH, they can never skip class (which makes them even more popular with teachers!).

I’m definitely not an auditory learner. If I just listened, I would fall asleep! And I can’t remember what someone tells me five minutes after they tell me! I have to have it written down.

I’m constantly amazed at how my husband and daughter are able to learn, remember, and understand just by hearing!

In high school, this daughter never took notes, and didn’t even bother to read the assigned books in English classes, but she would get As on every exam, usually perfect scores, and usually even the essay portions were marked with high grades. I would be amazed that she could ace these tests without reading the assigned books, and she would tell me, "Mom, I just listen to the teacher’s lecture in class–he tells us everything that’s going to be on the tests! You just have to listen!’

Well, a lot of other kids in the classes apparently weren’t hearing what those teachers were saying (not auditory learners), because they would read and study the books and still get Bs and Cs!

Life is unfair, isn’t it?! 😃

Now that my daughter is grown and out of school, she is still highly driven to do well. If you are a member of her synchronized skating team, she will tell you, “Yes, we’re here to have fun, but it’s a lot more fun if you WIN!” She will work your butt off and do everything she possibly can to try to get the win.

But she doesn’t get mad or sulky if her teams don’t win. She analyzes the competition and discusses with her skaters why they placed where they placed, and she praises them for all the things they did well. Then it’s on to the next competition.

OP, again, like it or not, high-school grades are highly valued. If you want to change things, go into a career where you will have influence on this system; .e.g., teaching or politics. Or become a millionaire, and then establish scholarships for students with lower grades who demonstrate their faith in their daily lives. You would be very popular.
 
EasterJoy said:
The great dangers of being an “A” student include: it can make you risk-averse and validation-hungry, overly dependent on having a rubric to work from, too used to the idea that there is some “right answer” to the most interesting questions, too used to the idea that if there is a right answer, you are the guy who knows it, too ready to dismiss the creative idea of “lesser” intellects, and too used to the idea that opportunities show up on a calendar, rather than having to be recognized. It is as if you are becoming very good at shooting competitions, but real life is hunting and gathering. Some of the very important skills and habits translate, but some don’t and some you will have to un-learn. Keep an eye out for that.

The pursuit of high grades can also take a disproportionate amount of time away from things with a very real but less quantifiable value. That is part of switching from targets with bulls-eyes to targets that can be eaten if you can sneak up on them, but that can also eat you if you miss. Life is a lot more complicated, but a lot more satisfying. Don’t try to force it to be target practice.
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I didn’t know which of your really good posts about the C students to respond to, but this is probably the best.

I was a C student. I was the type of person who never knew how well I did on a test, couldn’t sit still, mind always wandering. I used to relax in college by going up to the stacks in the library and read old magazines from the 30s-50s; this was back when they were actual magazines in little cardboard boxy things. I probably would have been diagnosed with ADHD if they knew what that was then.

I have a lot of people working for me, and what I do suits my “issues” very well.

I do admire people who are A students, but there is a tendency to, as you said, reduce the world to rubrics and processes. I also know some A students who are incredibly innovative, so it’s hard to generalize, generally.

What started out as a semi joke turned out to be a good discussion.
 
Xantippe said:
PaulinVA,

You’d be a B student today.
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Is that good or bad for society?

I know that my kids are doing a lot more in high school and college than my wife and I did. The pressure is astounding.
 
Cat said:
Oh, I don’t know. Both my husband and my daughter were straight A students all the way through college and grad school. (he’s comp sci/math, she’s physical therapy). Never got a B in any class, including all those gen ed classes that had nothing to do with their majors.

They were definitely driven to get As. But they are highly intelligent people who soak up knowledge without a lot of effort and remember it without having to review it. Both of them are auditory learners–they learn best by hearing. Neither of them took a lot of notes (and still don’t when they attend a seminar)–they just listen and remember EVERYTHING.

Not me! I learn best by reading. I would take a novel worth of notes in every class, and go over those notes dozens of times before an exam and condense them into index cards and eventually into short lists and mnemonics and anagrams!

I think there are definite advantages to being an auditory learner. It takes them less time to learn things because they don’t have to read through all those pages of notes and write out index cards and all that other stuff that we reader/learners have to do. They don’t have to actually do “hands on” activities to learn how to do something–they just listen and then they remember and understand it.

They show in their body posture and eyes that they are definitely listening, and this endears them to teachers and others.

OTOH, they can never skip class (which makes them even more popular with teachers!).

I’m definitely not an auditory learner. If I just listened, I would fall asleep! And I can’t remember what someone tells me five minutes after they tell me! I have to have it written down.

I’m constantly amazed at how my husband and daughter are able to learn, remember, and understand just by hearing!

In high school, this daughter never took notes, and didn’t even bother to read the assigned books in English classes, but she would get As on every exam, usually perfect scores, and usually even the essay portions were marked with high grades. I would be amazed that she could ace these tests without reading the assigned books, and she would tell me, "Mom, I just listen to the teacher’s lecture in class–he tells us everything that’s going to be on the tests! You just have to listen!’

Well, a lot of other kids in the classes apparently weren’t hearing what those teachers were saying (not auditory learners), because they would read and study the books and still get Bs and Cs!

Life is unfair, isn’t it?! 😃

Now that my daughter is grown and out of school, she is still highly driven to do well. If you are a member of her synchronized skating team, she will tell you, “Yes, we’re here to have fun, but it’s a lot more fun if you WIN!” She will work your butt off and do everything she possibly can to try to get the win.

But she doesn’t get mad or sulky if her teams don’t win. She analyzes the competition and discusses with her skaters why they placed where they placed, and she praises them for all the things they did well. Then it’s on to the next competition.

OP, again, like it or not, high-school grades are highly valued. If you want to change things, go into a career where you will have influence on this system; .e.g., teaching or politics. Or become a millionaire, and then establish scholarships for students with lower grades who demonstrate their faith in their daily lives. You would be very popular.
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There is a lot in this post! Knowing what kind of learner you are is very important.

Yes, the main thing is to work to master something, work to win, but don’t get worked up if the test shows you that you have more to master and some ground to make up on the competition. Better yet, value your competition as the force that pushes you to do better than you would do alone and the demonstration of another way to be excellent.

Speaking of your husband and daughter, do they know about The Teaching Company? They produce college courses on DVD and audio. Our library has purchased many of the courses–just the thing for those of us who only need to hear a lecture once or twice to master it! You have libraries full of written books for your adult learning, but perhaps your husband and daughter would enjoy these audio courses. (Many libraries are now carrying a wide range of books for audio download, too.)
 
EasterJoy said:
You’ve got it all wrong. The A students become doctors and nurses. The C students drop out of chemistry, change to a business major, and then become hospital administrators…hence proving the maxim that A and B students will eventually work for C students!

(Yes, I am just kidding, too! :D)
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Oh, you’re not kidding! This is all so true… 😃

Back to the topic at hand…
 
PaulinVA said:
Is that good or bad for society?

I know that my kids are doing a lot more in high school and college than my wife and I did. The pressure is astounding.
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Some of the pressure is self-inflicted. I used to say graduate school wasn’t hard because they put 40 lb packs on you and made you hike 15 miles every day. Oh, no, it was much worse! They put you in a camp with bunch of lunatics ordering themselves 60 lb packs and planning 25 mile hikes, and let you figure out on your own how much to take on!

High school has gotten to be like that, even though the university registrars aren’t necessarily the ones asking for it. It is the self-imposed “necessity” to get in one of a recognizable few schools that only have so many slots no matter what anyone does, schools that are not the only ones capable of providing what is needed for every great student out there. The truth is that these “top” schools aren’t even the best fit for every top notch student, and there are many suitable schools that can be had with a far lower price tag.

If people realized that stupendous career success can be even more fun if you can reach the pinnacle of your profession being able to smirk that Harvard and Yale both rejected you, the high school students could dial the anxiety down several notches. They would do just as well in the long run, and probably better. I would bet that even Harvard and Yale wish their would-be undergraduates could take some chilly pills and learn to breathe!
 
EasterJoy said:
High school has gotten to be like that, even though the university registrars aren’t necessarily the ones asking for it. It is the self-imposed “necessity” to get in one of a recognizable few schools that only have so many slots no matter what anyone does, schools that are not the only ones capable of providing what is needed for every great student out there. The truth is that these “top” schools aren’t even the best fit for every top notch student, and there are many suitable schools that can be had with a far lower price tag.
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Here in Virginia, you can have a 4.0+ and not get accepted by the University of Virginia. True, UVA has this complex, but they are not as good as they once were.

My daughter, as a high school sophomore, had a 4.0+ GPA. She was awarded an academic letter at a ceremony the next year with 400 other kids in grades 10-12. I was astounded. True, it’s a big school, but it was surprising. It is a lot easier with AP and IB classes, though. That’s why a lot of colleges look at the unweighted GPA.
 
Allegra said:
There’s a big difference between last generation’s c-student and this generation’s c-student. Back then, C meant “average”. Now it means, “You totally deserve to fail this class but I’m giving you a break because I know you mom will just call the principal and override me anyway and I don’t want to deal with the drama.”
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Sadly this is very true I am afraid. Then there is the practice of grading on a curve. This results in someone having to know only 40% of the subject matter well, or worse, and getting a passing grade. It is part of the “social passing” stupidity out there. We need to go back to evaluating students actual ability to apply what they have learned to given situations. If they can’t demonstrate at least an 80% proficiency they should fail.

I have tutored potential nursing students that all I have to say is “I hope they are never my nurse in a hospital.” With all the use of grading curves it is easy for a student to get a C when they barely understand 60% of the material. That is not a good thing. When I went to school a “C” was something one did not brag about, and you had to at least know 70% of the material well.

We are doing something wrong in our educational process in this country and we better get hold of the problem soon or we will become the dumbest nation on earth.
 
I recently thought of a question that I’d like to throw into the discussion:

What does everyone here think is better: a person who decides to get B’s and C’s in college in order to allow more time to freelance or work on a job and gain experience for more employability in the future and raise money for college, or someone who gets all A’s in college and doesn’t work during the college school year except for summer internships?
 
preb34 said:
I recently thought of a question that I’d like to throw into the discussion:

What does everyone here think is better: a person who decides to get B’s and C’s in college in order to allow more time to freelance or work on a job and gain experience for more employability in the future and raise money for college, or someone who gets all A’s in college and doesn’t work during the college school year except for summer internships?
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I would say it depends entirely on the position you want. If you do summer internships and get good letters of recommendation, then that may weigh as heavily as year-around work in terms of what the people hiring want. They don’t care how many years you’ve worked as much as they care that you come in on time every day, demonstrate aptitude in the field and apply yourself to learn the ropes as quickly as possible, prove easy to work with, and make yourself useful all day. If you want to go to graduate school in the sciences, it is better to do quality independent research that pays nothing over unrelated work for a wage. Even if your work was not earth-shaking, at least they know you know what you’re asking for when you ask for a position as a graduate student! Some very good students love the topic, but still hate doing research.

Of course, if you get the job, you’ll have fewer student loans to pay off, and that is HUGE in terms of your financial options after graduation. Still, I’d say it is usually a mistake for a college student who is capable of honors grades to fail to do the work necessary to get them, because you have paid to be taught this stuff! Do the work to learn as much of it as you can!
 
Yes, our society stresses grades too much. Many parents do too. Balance in life is essential. I do not believe it is a good thing to emphasize grades over everything else. It is tied into what is considered “success” in our culture.

So a person who doesn’t like school or do well in school for any number of reasons (such as, our educational system just doesn’t fit all learner styles) and ends up with a lower-paying blue color job is considered “less than” a student who earns As, goes to a top tier school, then graduate school, then lands a high paying white collar job. It’s ridiculous.

Yes we need to use our talents. But it’s blown all out of proportion in our society, in our education system, in many (most?) middle class and higher class families. I think it can be very misleading because it “seems” so “good” to be doing that.

But who knows? Maybe I’m just an underachiever myself! 🙂 Just kidding, I had all straight As growing up until I reached college.

Also, I have hired many people in my day. I have never once looked at anyone’s grades in making a hiring decision, even recent graduates. The only job it will matter for is your first job out of school. Grades do matter to college admissions offices though if you are trying to get into an exclusive school. But then again, I question the value and cost of going to an expensive college or university… just my own values I guess.
 
preb34 said:

“What does everyone here think is better: a person who decides to get B’s and C’s in college in order to allow more time to freelance or work on a job and gain experience for more employability in the future and raise money for college, or someone who gets all A’s in college and doesn’t work during the college school year except for summer internships?”

It all depends how good you are at the skill and how marketable you are. And seriously, if you are smart, you should be able to get solid Bs even when working. I understand the sciences are difficult to keep up a strong grade point average in, but if you’re good enough to do impressive paid work in the sciences, then you’re smart enough to get solid Bs, too. Really smart people can put in minimal effort and still get As (my husband had TERRIBLE study habits as an undergraduate, and still had a great grade point average in a math/physics concentration). I would not encourage you to aim at a C average for college.

Bear in mind that once you get to college, you can start focusing more. Instead of doing 7 or 8 subjects at a time (most of which you aren’t interested in) plus extracurriculars, you can narrow down your focus, study mostly things that you are interested in, and limit yourself to the extracurriculars that you like, rather than which you believe will get you into college. College is very different than high school. You will have prerequisites, but by sophomore year, you’ll have a lot of the “veggies” out of the way.

Oh, and take it easy freshman year with non-academics. A lot of people flame out academically freshman year. A lot of people start the year as pre-med and pre-pharmacy or whatever and end the year as anthropology majors, just because the science courses are so brutally difficult to do well in.
 
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