Sola Concilium and the Eastern Orthodox

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Total depravity and the denial of free will was Luther’s take on Augustine.
What do you mean that Predestination is a developed apostolic teaching?
Orthodox define predestination as God’s foreknowledge based on Romans 8:29 “For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the first-born among many brethren.”

Fr. John
Here’s a brief on Augustine. Right, same scripture verse’s are cited with East and West.

ewtn.com/library/THEOLOGY/AUGUSTIN.HTM

Original Sin is covered in his City of God. Original Sin Book 13 chapter 13 forward.

As to further re-fined thinking on predestination Thomas Aquinas and Suarez. Also Bl Duns Scotus on the Absolute Primacy of Jesus Christ. Here’s a brief on this.

socrates58.blogspot.com/2006/04/molinism-middle-knowledge.html
 
Dear brother Wandile,

Forgive me for intruding, but I would have responded differently to Fr. John’s post.
Father this reasoning is flawed. You make it seem as if just because one has authority to do something, that that person HAS to use it.
Ask yourself, seriously: Why do you feel admitting that the Pope needed an Ecumenical Council challenges papal primacy? Do you personally feel the Pope loses his primacy because of an Ecumenical Council? If not, why do you respond in this way to Fr. John’s question? Why not simply admit – “Yes, the Pope needed an Ecumenical Council.”
With the rise of Protestantism the ecumenical Council of Trent was called even though the pope had the authority to issue a papal decree and leave it at that. I don’t know why they don’t do it that way but popes tend to go with ecumenical councils rather that issuing a decree, EVEN post-schism.
Is it possible that Popes call Ecumenical Councils for the mere fact that they recognize that a formal collegial authority is simply the best way to get things done?
You mention that only an ecumenical council had such authority but which ecumenical council ever teaches that only it has such authority?
This is a good response, since no ecumenical council ever made that claim. In fact, most of the Fathers of Chalcedon had already recognized the orthodoxy of Pope St. Leo’s Tome even before the Council convened. The Ecumenical Council was not necessary to test the orthodoxy of Pope St. Leo’s Tome, but it was indeed necessary to ensure consensus on the Faith (read the ancient Apostolic Canon 34 on what consensus is intended to achieve).

Blessings,
Marduk
 
Dear brother Wandile,

Forgive me for intruding, but I would have responded differently to Fr. John’s post.

Ask yourself, seriously: Why do you feel admitting that the Pope needed an Ecumenical Council challenges papal primacy? Do you personally feel the Pope loses his primacy because of an Ecumenical Council? If not, why do you respond in this way to Fr. John’s question? Why not simply admit – "Yes, the Pope needed an Ecumenical Council.

Is it possible that Popes call Ecumenical Councils for the mere fact that they recognize that a formal collegial authority is simply the best way to get things done?

This is a good response, since no ecumenical council ever made that claim. In fact, most of the Fathers of Chalcedon had already recognized the orthodoxy of Pope St. Leo’s Tome even before the Council convened. The Ecumenical Council was not necessary to test the orthodoxy of Pope St. Leo’s Tome, but it was indeed necessary to ensure consensus on the Faith (read the ancient Apostolic Canon 34 on what consensus is intended to achieve).

Blessings,
Marduk
I have no doubt that the Fathers of the Council of Chalcedon had read and agreed with the Tome of Leo, but in order for it to have ecumenical authority, it had to be accepted by an Ecumenical Council. It was not enough for Pope St. Leo to issue his Tome, he had to seek the ratification of an Ecumenical Council for it to have ecumenical authority. You are right, decisions were usually made by consensus at the Ecumenical Councils. Remember Constantinople also opposed Monophyitism, especially after St. Flavian died after Dioscorus’ monks at beat him at Ephesus in 449. Thus Pope St. Leo did not impose his opinion on the Church through his Tome. He simply expressed clearly what all but those who went into schism because they supported Dioscorus believed.

Fr. John
 
For almost 1,000 years, men have sought to heal the wounds of separation that currently divide the Body of Christ, and there is probably no greater obstacle to that healing than the rejection by some of the modern papacy. Opponents of Rome argue that in the ancient Church, the role of the Pope was nothing like the autocracy that has developed in recent times, and while they acknowledge the Bishop of Rome’s “primacy” in the early Church, they opine that the early papacy was constitutional or conciliar in nature and that the modern papacy is a novelty or worse.

One suggestion frequently heard is to return to the Church of the ecumenical councils – to the time when Catholics, Orthodox and Protestants can all agree on the scope of the Pope’s authority. By agreeing to such a compromise, Catholics will be able to maintain their papacy, albeit reduced to its primitive limits, and the great obstacle to the reunion of Christendom will be removed. The Church will be healed of its wound, the scandal of schism will cease, and the seamless garment of Christ will be restored. This argument has been put forward by Orthodox, Anglicans and even modern Evangelicals who call this theological movement “Paleo-Orthodoxy”.

Proponents hold that the ancient Church still lives in the documents of the Councils and the voices of the Church Fathers; it is a living authority, just as much as the Bible. Obey what the primitive Church would have instructed under like circumstances, what you think it would command today, if it had not disappeared under the exaggerations of a later age, and you have your authority for the Church – at least as good an authority as that of the Protestant who obeys what the Bible Alone commands in similar circumstances.

Such a proposal is riddled with problems. First, as Dave Armstrong points out, returning to a conciliar model is no compromise; it is simply Orthodoxy. As such, it ignores the development of the papacy which is just as natural as that which has occurred for any number of doctrines that are held by all Christendom and cannot be compromised.

Second, Catholics believe in a Church that exists and lives all days, even to the end of the world, built by Jesus and guided by the Holy Spirit, infallible in faith and morals. We have the same confidence in the Church today as we do in the Church of AD 325 or AD 451. To be obliged to look back to some former time would be the end of any living authority in the Church. The idea of a dead past in which the Church was united, and a present in which it is not, really means that the original Church founded by Christ no longer exists. A society that has become three or more separate societies no longer exists. If the original Church no longer exists, then hell has prevailed. This is to be rejected. That some have left the Church and set up rival churches is tragic, but it is nothing new. From Arianism, Nestoriansim, and Monophysitism in the earliest days down to the heresies of the Albigensians and the Reformation more recently, there have always been those who cut themselves off from the Church. However, none of that affects the unity of the original Church. Nothing can destroy her because her Founder is almighty and promised that she would last until the end of time.

Third, if we are to be required to judge for ourselves what the documents of that earlier period imply, we are in worse shape than the Protestant who judges for himself what the Scriptures mean. It is one degree of difficulty to discern what 66 or 73 inspired books might mean; it is far more difficult to manage the vast writings of hundreds of Church Fathers and the Councils. Thus, while one person might support his theological view with the writings of one Father, a second person, with greater knowledge of Patrology or the ancient languages, would justify his contrary view with passages from a second Father – or even from other passages from that one Father! And, of course, the Fathers were not authoring inspired or infallible texts. With such obvious difficulties, we shall go on arguing about the meaning of the Fathers far more hopelessly than we have argued for the meaning of Matthew 16:18. The only possible standard is a living authority, an authority alive in the world at this moment that can answer our difficulties, reject a false theory as it arises, and say who is right in disputed interpretations of ancient documents.

Finally, while each of the points just made is sufficient for silencing the proponents of the conciliar papacy model, it must be pointed out that Catholics contend that the Church Fathers and indeed the Scriptures themselves offer proof of a papacy that is far stronger the conciliarists care to admit.
 
I have no doubt that the Fathers of the Council of Chalcedon had read and agreed with the Tome of Leo, but in order for it to have ecumenical authority, it had to be accepted by an Ecumenical Council. It was not enough for Pope St. Leo to issue his Tome, he had to seek the ratification of an Ecumenical Council for it to have ecumenical authority.
I agree, Father (notwithstanding that there was a lot of theological - i.e., how we express belief - misunderstanding in those days).
 
while they acknowledge the Bishop of Rome’s “primacy” in the early Church, they opine that the early papacy was constitutional or conciliar in nature and that the modern papacy is a novelty or worse.
I agree it was constitutional and conciliar in nature, but not in the sense that a Council is above the Pope. Of course, neither is a Pope above an Ecumenical Council, but is, rather, a member of it as its head.
One suggestion frequently heard is to return to the Church of the ecumenical councils – to the time when Catholics, Orthodox and Protestants can all agree on the scope of the Pope’s authority. By agreeing to such a compromise, Catholics will be able to maintain their papacy, albeit reduced to its primitive limits, and the great obstacle to the reunion of Christendom will be removed.
Why is that a “compromise?” I don’t think the High Petrine view is a “compromise” at all. The problem is the “Low Petrine” view proposed by certain EO apologists. The idea of a mere primacy of honor, that local Synods can depose their patriarch without that patriarch being able to appeal to a higher authority, that the local Church is so self-sufficient that communion with other members of the Church is not an ontological necessity, etc., etc. These are not patristic, but one should not assume that these novel ideas are what is intended by a good number of the hierarchs of the Orthodox Churches when they say that we must return to the model of the Church during the time of the 7 great Councils.
Proponents hold that the ancient Church still lives in the documents of the Councils and the voices of the Church Fathers; it is a living authority, just as much as the Bible.
I’m not exactly sure why you would be critical of this position.
Such a proposal is riddled with problems. First, as Dave Armstrong points out, returning to a conciliar model is no compromise; it is simply Orthodoxy.
Well there’s nothing wrong with Orthodoxy.😃 If by “conciliar model” you mean the idea that the Ecum Council is above the Pope, I agree. On the other hand, the idea that the Pope is above an Ecum Council is also a no-go, and is not Traditional Catholic ecclesiology.
As such, it ignores the development of the papacy which is just as natural as that which has occurred for any number of doctrines that are held by all Christendom and cannot be compromised.
The Absolutist Petrine excesses are not a natural development, but a corruption of the Catholic Church’s ecclesiological Tradition of collegiality.
Second, Catholics believe in a Church that exists and lives all days, even to the end of the world, built by Jesus and guided by the Holy Spirit, infallible in faith and morals. We have the same confidence in the Church today as we do in the Church of AD 325 or AD 451. To be obliged to look back to some former time would be the end of any living authority in the Church.
I don’t know brother. The way you present it makes it seem like there is a break with the past in the concept of “development.” That is certainly not what Newman intended.
Third, if we are to be required to judge for ourselves what the documents of that earlier period imply, we are in worse shape than the Protestant who judges for himself what the Scriptures mean.
Disagree. As Pastor Aeternus asserted, it is the responsibility of the Church to preserve and guard Sacred Tradition.
The only possible standard is a living authority, an authority alive in the world at this moment that can answer our difficulties, reject a false theory as it arises, and say who is right in disputed interpretations of ancient documents.
Agreed, if you mean:
(1) a living authority that preserves and guards Sacred Tradition.
(2) The whole episcopal Magisterium is involved in this preservation and guardianship, not just the Pope.
Finally, while each of the points just made is sufficient for silencing the proponents of the conciliar papacy model,
Not really… though I do agree that “conciliarism” (which restricts the Church’s infallibility to a Council, or claims the Council is above its head bishop) is not an option for a united Church.

Blessings,
Marduk
 
I agree it was constitutional and conciliar in nature, but not in the sense that a Council is above the Pope. Of course, neither is a Pope above an Ecumenical Council, but is, rather, a member of it as its head.

Why is that a “compromise?” I don’t think the High Petrine view is a “compromise” at all. The problem is the “Low Petrine” view proposed by certain EO apologists. The idea of a mere primacy of honor, that local Synods can depose their patriarch without that patriarch being able to appeal to a higher authority, that the local Church is so self-sufficient that communion with other members of the Church is not an ontological necessity, etc., etc. These are not patristic, but one should not assume that these novel ideas are what is intended by a good number of the hierarchs of the Orthodox Churches when they say that we must return to the model of the Church during the time of the 7 great Councils.

I’m not exactly sure why you would be critical of this position.

Well there’s nothing wrong with Orthodoxy.😃 If by “conciliar model” you mean the idea that the Ecum Council is above the Pope, I agree. On the other hand, the idea that the Pope is above an Ecum Council is also a no-go, and is not Traditional Catholic ecclesiology.

The Absolutist Petrine excesses are not a natural development, but a corruption of the Catholic Church’s ecclesiological Tradition of collegiality.

I don’t know brother. The way you present it makes it seem like there is a break with the past in the concept of “development.” That is certainly not what Newman intended.

Disagree. As Pastor Aeternus asserted, it is the responsibility of the Church to preserve and guard Sacred Tradition.

Agreed, if you mean:
(1) a living authority that preserves and guards Sacred Tradition.
(2) The whole episcopal Magisterium is involved in this preservation and guardianship, not just the Pope.

Not really… though I do agree that “conciliarism” (which restricts the Church’s infallibility to a Council, or claims the Council is above its head bishop) is not an option for a united Church.

Blessings,
Marduk
I agree with you! I like the way you explained it it was my view also.
 
🍿 conciliarism. V-1 explicitly condemned conciliarism. V-II further defined. The college of Bishops forms with it an organic unity, in particular when in General Council. I don’t see the issue with Primacy in perspective. Council of Basel, 1431, reaffirmed Sacrosancta.
 
1] Absolutist Petrine

2] High Petrine

3] Low Petrine

I keep hearing about a majority who want unity of the Church-communion.

One and three leave us in the position we are in. Neither is factual or consistent with the historical chain of events. Two is consistent and could be read into the history of the Church.

The issues with two are touched upon in this thread. I see no resolve but to continue to address them, which in effect means the errors of one and three.

The issues of three in particular have been addressed, the issues of one are a complete deviation of the common ground sought between two and three, be it they are a natural sequence as is three in separation.
 
Not to re-kindle the Matthew verse, what I find interesting is Daniel is never mentioned. But he is mentioned by Jerome

“While you were watching, a rock was cut out, but not by human hands. It struck the statue on its feet of iron and clay and smashed them.”

Plausible as St Peter?

The other point with verse as far as the Matthew is “and” and “you” X3.

This here…

"I also say to you that you are Peter, “AND” upon this rock

Its indicative of the person, how could that be understood another way?

Biblehub commentary

“Jerome adds de monte. It may be noted, as at least a curiosity, that the Peshitta, instead of the אבן (aben),” a stone," gives kepha, from which Cephas, the name of the Apostle Peter, is derived. As the monarch gazes at the huge image, he sees behind the image a mountain towering above the image, huge as it is. From this mountain he sees a boulder detach itself, as if it were being cut with chisel and wedge, but no hands are risible. Once set loose from the mountain’s side, it came by bounds and leaps down the declivity, “and smote the image upon his feet that were of iron and clay.” Every bound that the stone makes down the mountain is larger, and raises it higher and makes it strike the earth with more of force, till with a bound greater than any it had made before, it strikes the feet of the image, “which were of iron and clay” mingled, yet separate - and at once they are broken in pieces: “utterly crushed” is the meaning of the word דוּק (duq).

No response I’ll listen. 😉
 
All these writers show is that the Bishop or Rome was the senior Bishop and successor to St. Peter. It is still quite stretch to take these words and use them to justify the authority now claimed by the Popes.
You can assemble all the quotes that you can, but what you cannot do is deny history. The historical fact is that no Pope exercised anything like the authority claimed by modern Popes during the days before the schism. Every major decision was made by a council. None were made by the Bishop of Rome on his own authority.

Fr. John
Considering your statement that it doesn’t line up historically, how then do you explain why the pope or a council for that matter give the pope authority over faith and morals? Granted, the pope did gain some political power during the Holy Roman Empire which could have suggested it, but even then, the pope still didn’t have nearly as much as the Emperor.

My other question to you father, is why exactly would a pope being able to declare dogmatic statements on faith and morals be a bad thing? The fact that this authority gives stability and a foundation for the faithful, suggests that the power to declare what is our Faith and Morals is actually more beneficial than hurtful.
 
My other question to you father, is why exactly would a pope being able to declare dogmatic statements on faith and morals be a bad thing?
I am not Fr. John, but my thoughts on this are that Christianity is not primarily about stability (that is to say, stability is a result of Christianity, but it is not the end of Christianity). It is about salvation in Christ and the true faith which He passed down to the Apostles and which the Apostles passed down to us in the Sacred Scriptures and the Sacred Tradition. One can find true stability not by looking to some external source of power or authority, but through the genuine encounter of Christ in the heart accomplished through prayer, fasting, giving alms, and reading the Scriptures and the Fathers.
 
God crowns His own gifts, nothing else. Indeed He would crown His own Church and those whom He gave His own gifts to. That would complete the masterpiece.

Communion is the crowning achievement. We are casting out into the lake to fish, a bit too far left and a bit too far right. Perfection resides in the middle, the fish are there. 😃
 
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