Sola Fide and James 2

[exnihilo]

Faith is ALL that is needed…however we need “modifyers” because in our contemporary language “faith” has been interpreted as “intellectual ascent”…how many times have Catholics on this board painted a “caricature” of “faith alone”…“All you need to do is say the “sinner’s prayer” and you’re saved.” is one such statement…however “faith” isn’t intellectual ascent…it carries with it “rely on”, “cling to”, “trust in”…Faith is not doctrinal ascent or statements either…“faith” is orienting our lives in such a way that we LIVE in such a way that our lives “speak” that we know Whom is in charge of the circumstances of our lives…we know Who holds the future.

It seems the problem is that a single word can’t convey the entire truth and therefore it is not of much use to argue about that word and probably not wise to proclaim doctrines like Sola Fide in this day if faith is thought to mean mere intellectual ascent. I agree what is needed is trusting in God and that this trust will result in good deeds. There are broadly two elements belief and deeds. If we use the word faith and say that it is all that is necessary than faith must encompass works. That is the only way that makes sense to me and can fit with the Scripture.

 

[Publisher]

It seems the problem is that a single word can’t convey the entire truth and therefore it is not of much use to argue about that word and probably not wise to proclaim doctrines like Sola Fide in this day if faith is thought to mean mere intellectual ascent. I agree what is needed is trusting in God and that this trust will result in good deeds. There are broadly two elements belief and deeds. If we use the word faith and say that it is all that is necessary than faith must encompass works. That is the only way that makes sense to me and can fit with the Scripture.

Faith encompasses works…“Without works, faith is dead.”

 

[onemangang]

I think that Catholics are not painting a caricature of the Protestant notion of what faith is, because there is not a unified definition. Some will say its a type or quality of faith and others will say it’s not just an intellectual ascent. The problem is for us Catholics is that, no matter how you label it, do you receive an imputation of Christ righteousness from it, or to get it? If yes, then no matter how you word it, faith will be some sort of completed transaction that demands eternal security when taking to it’s natural conclusions!

We can have a much richer dialog when we stop focusing on the word faith, and start focusing on what is going on between man and God. The metamorphosis the ***μεταμορφόω ***"metamorphoō".

If you say it is unknowable then why the split over justification? You can’t have your cake and eat it too? Why I used that expression is beyond me, I don’t even get it

Is it a transformation or transaction?
Ontological or legal?

 

[ChrisB103]

Faith is ALL that is needed…however we need “modifyers” because in our contemporary language “faith” has been interpreted as “intellectual ascent”…how many times have Catholics on this board painted a “caricature” of “faith alone”…“All you need to do is say the “sinner’s prayer” and you’re saved.” is one such statement…however “faith” isn’t intellectual ascent…it carries with it “rely on”, “cling to”, “trust in”…Faith is not doctrinal ascent or statements either…“faith” is orienting our lives in such a way that we LIVE in such a way that our lives “speak” that we know Whom is in charge of the circumstances of our lives…we know Who holds the future…we trust that He has all things under His control…even though the world around is crumbling…our trust is in the Lord.

Ascenting to dogma and doctrine does not “save” us…rituals and rites do not “save us”…our salvation is COMPLETELY the work of God through Christ in us…“He is the Potter, we are the clay”…He prepares us for every good work…HE PREPARES US…

“Faith” means more than reciting the “sinners prayer”…or believing in God…“even the demons believe…”…faith is embracing an “attitude” of how we live…we live as though we actually believe God is in control…faith comprises that our lives are oriented to produce good fruit…“the fruit of the Spirit is, love, joy, peace, kindness, gentleness, self control…”

Faith is bound up with Hope and Love…“though I speak with the tongue of men and angels and have not love…it profits us nothing…”…“Love is patient, kind, gentle, not seeking it’s own, never retruning evil for evil…”…“now abide these three…”

Jesus is reported to have said…"By this shall all men know you are my disciples, that you love one another as I have loved you.’

“Faith” is a struggle…true faith calls us beyond ourselves and our mortal bound lives to LIVE NOW as though the Kingdom of God is truly among us…and within us…which it is…we need to exercise FAITH that the Kingdom of God…the Rule of God…the Reign of God…is present now and we are it’s citizens…and as good citizens of this Peaceable Kingdom we live to serve our King…if we are not living under Kingdom principles and behavior…we are not in the Kingdom…“Faith” is trusting, persevering, loving, hoping, and seeking to conform our wills to the Will of God…and when we fail…“faith” tells me there is astounding grace and mercy and cleansing there for the asking…it is a free gift…and all I need do is receive it.

Detirich Bonhoeffer spoke of “cheap grace”…“simply believe and you’re saved” IS “cheap grace”…works are the “fruit” of our roots being deep within the Presence of God…:“faith” is living as though we truly believe He is present among us…works do not save…they are the ‘product’ of “salvation”…not the means.

Beautiful post. Two thoughts:

1. Catholics saying that some Protestants believe that they can say the sinner’s prayer and be saved is no caricature, so long as the Catholic makes it understood that they are only referring to the subset of Protestants who actually believe that. Indeed, there are some Protestants whose soteriology is that basic.
2. If “faith” means all of the things that you say it does, then it encompasses the Catholic idea of faith and work (which we see as being intertwined from the beginning). As such, your understanding is not necessarily different from the Catholic one aside from your caveat at the end that claimed that works are the “product of salvation, not the means”. To me, however, if you claim that we are saved by grace through faith alone, where faith is defined as “trusting, persevering, loving, hoping, and seeking to conform our wills to the Will of God”, you are claiming the Catholic position, unless you specify that justification is an instantaneous event.

 

[ChrisB103]

Hi, thanks.
Justified and justified as well? If we just set aside sanctification for the moment, and talk about salvation, then we have to ask ourselves how we are saved. If we are saved through our belief and faith in Jesus Christ, then how can we be saved again through our good works?

I am thinking that it goes back to faith and whether or not we have a saving faith. If I say I have faith, but I am always rude to people and I LOVE rich people and greatly admire their progress in society…etc… then what faith is that? Is that not faith in* worldly *things?

I think that is maybe what is the issue in chapter 2 of James but I’m not certain.

To answer your question best, I think it might be important for us to first discuss what grace is. How would you define grace? And why does it save us? (Bare with me for a moment here, I fully intend to answer your question, it just seems prudent to discuss what grace is in order to lay down some groundwork.)

 

[Publisher]

Justification IS an instantaneous event…I stand justified before God due to the work of Christ…sanctification is an ongoing process and work of the Holy Spirit in our lives.

Christ righteousness is not only “imputed” to us…but “imparted” to us as “new creations”…we have a new nature…His Spirit now dwells within us…“it is not I that live, but Christ that lives within me.”

Perhaps we embrace very similar concepts and beliefs concerning salvation/faith/works…we just express them differently…I’m not sure…my “works” do not justify me before God…the mercy and grace of God in Christ does that…my works are the fruit of my justification…not the means of my justification…that occurs by grace thru faith…of course the Quaker understanding and the Catholic understanding differ on sacraments and ordinances…so even though we may agree on faith/works…we still find ourselves opposite ends in regard to the efficacy of sacraments and ordinances.

 

[CopticChristian]

Hi, thanks.
Justified and justified as well? If we just set aside sanctification for the moment, and talk about salvation, then we have to ask ourselves how we are saved. ** If we are saved through our belief and faith in Jesus Christ, then how can we be saved again through our good works?**
I am thinking that it goes back to faith and whether or not we have a saving faith. If I say I have faith, but I am always rude to people and I LOVE rich people and greatly admire their progress in society…etc… then what faith is that? Is that not faith in* worldly *things?

I think that is maybe what is the issue in chapter 2 of James but I’m not certain.

Lisa,

You have learned from Protestant theology that salvation is a one time process. The OT is a record of the Salvation of the people of Israel, not a one time process. Salvation is a process in Catholic/Christian Theology. We are thrown a lifesaver, we swim to the boat, we get into the boat, we join in rowing to shore our final destination. As a Protestant your theology clings to the lifesaver.

 

[CopticChristian]

If you could underline the portion of my text that you are disagreeing with it would be easier for me because I am not certain what I said that you agreed with and what I said that you disagree with.

How about you tell me what you don’t understand about what I said. I suggest you realize that you are dialoguing with a physician and your analogy should be understood not only as incorrect but viewed experientialy on my part.

 

[Lisa44]

To answer your question best, I think it might be important for us to first discuss what grace is. How would you define grace? And why does it save us? (Bare with me for a moment here, I fully intend to answer your question, it just seems prudent to discuss what grace is in order to lay down some groundwork.)

Ok, but James chapter 2 never mentions “grace”. Are you refering to Ephesians 2:5 “…by grace you have been saved.” And Ephesians 2:8 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith–and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God not by works, so that no one can boast.”

 

[Lisa44]

Now, I think I know what the “work” is, and it has to do with growing closer to Jesus, that is the work. It is not that we are not saved by our belief in him initially, but that the work we have to do is grow in our love and knowledge of Christ.

This is the only “work” I can think of and our salvation is not predicated on the progress of that work per say, but by our believing that Jesus is the Son of God.

For comparison, a graduate from medical school who starts work in a hospital is a doctor. Just because he hasn’t perfected his practice doesn’t make him less of a doctor. So too a believer in Christ doesn’t cease to be saved by Christ because his work in Christ is not perfected.

I believe that you are wrong. The work is called the gift of “Charity” and for on your own you can do nothing. As a Physician my work is putting what I know in action. I then become certified and then continually perfect my knowledge and understanding by applying what I know in what I do so that what I do becomes second nature.

You are talking in circles saying that believing in Christ leads to salvation and your continued believing is the work. Then you can sit and do nothing but believe and continually work to believe.
Paul clearly says that Faith is obedient and that means that Faith requires action. Jesus says to love God and Neigbor and you can only love with the grace of God that allows you to generate that love through the gift of Faith that is seen as Charity.

Works are a consequence of belief that show evidence of that belief. We are saved by grace alone, by Faith alone working in love…for if you have not love you are nothing…

If you could underline the portion of my text that you are disagreeing with it would be easier for me because I am not certain what I said that you agreed with and what I said that you disagree with.

How about you tell me what you don’t understand about what I said. I suggest you realize that you are dialoguing with a physician and your analogy should be understood not only as incorrect but viewed experientialy on my part.

I underlined your words that I don’t understand. I never said that. You paraphrased me badly, sorry.

 

[Lisa44]

Lisa,

You have learned from Protestant theology that salvation is a one time process. The OT is a record of the Salvation of the people of Israel, not a one time process. Salvation is a process in Catholic/Christian Theology. We are thrown a lifesaver, we swim to the boat, we get into the boat, we join in rowing to shore our final destination. As a Protestant your theology clings to the lifesaver.

What is the “lifesaver”?

 

[onemangang]

Justification IS an instantaneous event…I stand justified before God due to the work of Christ…sanctification is an ongoing process and work of the Holy Spirit in our lives.

I agree Justification can be instantaneous event, but not limited to that event as an end all be all. I can say Justification is an instantaneous event and an ongoing event. In regarding sanctification, sure I can say that sanctifying grace is an ongoing inner working or process of transforming out hearts

Christ righteousness is not only “imputed” to us…but “imparted” to us as “new creations”…we have a new nature…His Spirit now dwells within us…“it is not I that live, but Christ that lives within me.”

I say the change is ontological in our nature and not just declarative.

Perhaps we embrace very similar concepts and beliefs concerning salvation/faith/works…we just express them differently…I’m not sure…my “works” do not justify me before God…the mercy and grace of God in Christ does that…my works are the fruit of my justification…not the means of my justification…that occurs by grace thru faith…of course the Quaker understanding and the Catholic understanding differ on sacraments and ordinances…so even though we may agree on faith/works…we still find ourselves opposite ends in regard to the efficacy of sacraments and ordinances.

My works do not justify me before God, MERCY and GRACE does that. The Means of my justification relies upon the Merit of Christ, not on my own ability!

 

[CopticChristian]

What is the “lifesaver”?

Joshua

 

[Publisher]

I agree Justification can be instantaneous event, but not limited to that event as an end all be all. I can say Justification is an instantaneous event and an ongoing event. In regarding sanctification, sure I can say that sanctifying grace is an ongoing inner working or process of transforming out hearts

I say the change is ontological in our nature and not just declarative.

My works do not justify me before God, MERCY and GRACE does that. The Means of my justification relies upon the Merit of Christ, not on my own ability!

Friend, I can unite with your words.