J
JRKH
Guest
Where does the Bible say this?
Are you refering to the “All Scripture is useful” quote?
Peace
James
- Status
Are you refering to the “All Scripture is useful” quote?
Peace
James
S
Seeking12
Guest
2Tim 3:15
S
Seeking12
Guest
**I know plenty of like-minded Christians because they adhere to the Word of God. The Bible does as it says, the “natural man” does not understand and the true believers have the “mind of Christ” and the Holy Spirit leads to all truth; all these things the Bibles says and all are true.
It is also true that we can know and do know that you have been called. As I have said before; it is not a mystery and there is no way someone can have the mind of Christ and the indwelling and not know it is there. The life is completely changed from the “old man” to the “new man”. The pattern and direction of one’s life is to sin less and less and when you do sin; it seems much bigger than it use to.
I actually know joy; something I use to chase after in the world and could find it on a temporary basis; not like this joy. It is not so much emotional as it is peaceful…if that makes sense.
As far as prayer life, this is another good example. I pray all the time, but it never seems to be enough because the more you have your spiritual goggles on the more you realize how much there is to pray for; there are a lot of suffering people out there.
Remind me sometime and I will start a thread titled “12 indicators/tests of Salvation”**
S
SteveGC
Guest
What is like-minded? Does that mean, for example, that you ALL hold to baptism as unnecessary for salvation? If I want to learn everything you have, who do I go to? I mean, you didn’t go by yourself right to the Bible when you started your journey. You learned interpretations of the Bible from men. And then you agreed with certain things they taught you along the way - disagreed with others, using your Bible to validate what all of them were saying, on and on through your life to where you are now. So, if I am just starting this journey, to whom do I go to learn? Which man? Which group? Which church? After all, I want to have the truth like you do, so I need good catechesis for my journey.
And you know these like-minded people because they “adhere to the Word of God”. But, devout Catholics do as well, even if we were to limit our understanding of that concept to The Bible alone, as you do. We DO adhere to the Bible. So, are we like-minded? Or do we have to adhere to the Bible ALONE? Or to your understanding of it?
We wholeheartedly know we have the indwelling of the Spirit as well. We know we are a new creation. It is a peaceful joy for us too - as we see the fruit of it daily, and are joyful as we see the patterns of our lives move more and more away from sin…more and more toward Christ. Believe me, devout Catholics DO know all this.
So, if I feel as you do…, that I adhere to the Bible, and fervently know that the Spirit dwells within me, how come my interpretation of the Bible is different from yours, especially salvific essentials? You couldn’t claim that my “feeling” is false, because I could make the same shallow claim about yours. But one of us must be wrong, no? We can’t BOTH be right about it. The point is, one of us is trusting in an interpretation that is man-made, and the other is trusting in one that is guided by the Spirit. How is it that you KNOW you are the latter, and not the former?
If you claim that mine is a false feeling because I follow The Church, I could make the same argument about the men/women/groups/churches that taught you. After all, I prayerfully read Scripture often and validate what men are teaching me too. So, again…assuming ONE of us is right, one of us is wrong. Do we just say “well, then we agree to disagree…I think I’m right and you’re wrong…we’ll find out in the end”? I don’t think that’s smart. I think we gotta figure this out so we’re BOTH on the right side of the line when the race finishes, no?
God Bless
S
Seeking12
Guest
Steve,
**I was reading intently until you showed your true color. “You couldn’t claim that my “feeling” is false, because I could make the same shallow claim about yours.”
I’m glad you are content and “know” you are saved; so have a good life and I’ll will continue to enjoy mine.**
S
SteveGC
Guest
What true color is that? I’m sure you read that wrong. I was simply trying to anticipate certain responses you might make, and let you know that I would be curious in other, deeper responses.If I didn’t know better, I’d actually say you are purposefully avoiding an intriguing spiritual conversation, one in which we could both learn something. But I would presume you are above that tactic. Is it perhaps, that my post reveals some core problems with your theology? Perhaps not, but I wonder.
I’m glad you’re glad - although based on the comment you first made, I would certainly doubt your sincerity. I am content, but do not KNOW I am saved. This is one of the reasons I engage you in conversation - to see what it’s like to have such confidence in your salvation outside of what I believe to be Christ-granted teaching authority.
Care to re-engage?
God Bless
P
Philthy
Guest
Seeking12;:
Paul - in Ephesians 2 - is speaking to the beginning of salvation where one is converted from being outside the family of God to being brought into the family of God. That is purely by grace through faith. That is why Paul - in this instance - chooses to discuss salvation in the past tense: you have been saved…because he is speaking of this past aspect of salvation. Elsewhere salvation is spoken of in the present, ongoing salvation: “are being saved”, and elsewhere the future salvation: “will be saved”. For example, Matt 24:13 "“But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved.” Paul speaks of future salvation in his metaphor of running the race for the imperishable crown(1Cor9:24 and Heb12-1) This does not gel with your take on Paul’s limited discussion of salvation in Ephesians 2.
Now James in Ch2 (and Paul in many places) is speaking to established members of the body of Christ who are a little confused about what it means to be a Christian day to day, year to year. No doubt there were some who claimed to have faith but who lacked fruit. James unambiguously clears things up with the rhetorical: "What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him? I read your slant, focusing in on the “says” part of the question, but that is an artificial nuance necessitated by your theology. In reality, James is focusing on the necessity of works. That is why he finishes with “just as the body without the spirit is dead so also faith alone, if it does not have works, is dead.” Notice there is no mention of “says” here and your argument simply doesnt deal with the actual entirety of the Scriptural text. James preaching parallels Christs own words regarding the unfruitful branch that is cut off from the vine and thrown into the fire. Note that the branch was “saved” in that it was attached to the vine(Christ) but that due to disobedience/failure to produce fruit it is “cut off and thrown into the fire”. It also ties in well with many of the admonitions Peter gives to the Christian(ie “have been, and are being saved”) communities he writes to. "Therefore, brethren, be all the more diligent to make certain about His calling and choosing you; for as long as you practice these things, you will never stumble;for in this way the **entrance into the eternal kingdom **of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ will be abundantly supplied to you. 2 Pet1:11
And it harmoniously ties in with all the admonitions Paul himself gives to the Churches(ie “saved” )
Now you might be tempted to, once again, accuse a Catholic of proclaiming a “works righteousness”, but you must consider this: How is it that we “walk in the good deeds that God prepared” and how is it that we avoid sin during our earthly lives? BY GRACE! If it were not for God providing a way out during our trials we would not be able to withstand the temptations of Satan (cf 1 Cor 10:13). So dont feel that we are preaching a “works righteousness”, understand that we know - just as you say - that a living faith must continue to bear fruit. If it doesnt it is because it is not alive with God’s grace. Expressing that reality with the claim that “salvation is through faith alone” is really a dangerous partial truth.
No, not right. Your entire interpretation is predicated upon this false premise and therefore contains error. Paul also speaks in plenty of places regarding other conditions regarding salvation. One glaring verse is where he is speaking to the “saved” Corinthians and he says “Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor {the} covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.” He does not exempt those who “have faith” here. As I read this, I realize that perhaps you do not recognize the difference between being “saved” and “inheriting the kingdom of God”. There is a difference between being saved and ultimately ending up in Heaven. Anyhow, back to Paul…
Paul - in Ephesians 2 - is speaking to the beginning of salvation where one is converted from being outside the family of God to being brought into the family of God. That is purely by grace through faith. That is why Paul - in this instance - chooses to discuss salvation in the past tense: you have been saved…because he is speaking of this past aspect of salvation. Elsewhere salvation is spoken of in the present, ongoing salvation: “are being saved”, and elsewhere the future salvation: “will be saved”. For example, Matt 24:13 "“But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved.” Paul speaks of future salvation in his metaphor of running the race for the imperishable crown(1Cor9:24 and Heb12-1) This does not gel with your take on Paul’s limited discussion of salvation in Ephesians 2.
Now James in Ch2 (and Paul in many places) is speaking to established members of the body of Christ who are a little confused about what it means to be a Christian day to day, year to year. No doubt there were some who claimed to have faith but who lacked fruit. James unambiguously clears things up with the rhetorical: "What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him? I read your slant, focusing in on the “says” part of the question, but that is an artificial nuance necessitated by your theology. In reality, James is focusing on the necessity of works. That is why he finishes with “just as the body without the spirit is dead so also faith alone, if it does not have works, is dead.” Notice there is no mention of “says” here and your argument simply doesnt deal with the actual entirety of the Scriptural text. James preaching parallels Christs own words regarding the unfruitful branch that is cut off from the vine and thrown into the fire. Note that the branch was “saved” in that it was attached to the vine(Christ) but that due to disobedience/failure to produce fruit it is “cut off and thrown into the fire”. It also ties in well with many of the admonitions Peter gives to the Christian(ie “have been, and are being saved”) communities he writes to. "Therefore, brethren, be all the more diligent to make certain about His calling and choosing you; for as long as you practice these things, you will never stumble;for in this way the **entrance into the eternal kingdom **of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ will be abundantly supplied to you. 2 Pet1:11
And it harmoniously ties in with all the admonitions Paul himself gives to the Churches(ie “saved” )
Now you might be tempted to, once again, accuse a Catholic of proclaiming a “works righteousness”, but you must consider this: How is it that we “walk in the good deeds that God prepared” and how is it that we avoid sin during our earthly lives? BY GRACE! If it were not for God providing a way out during our trials we would not be able to withstand the temptations of Satan (cf 1 Cor 10:13). So dont feel that we are preaching a “works righteousness”, understand that we know - just as you say - that a living faith must continue to bear fruit. If it doesnt it is because it is not alive with God’s grace. Expressing that reality with the claim that “salvation is through faith alone” is really a dangerous partial truth.
this is encouraging - so are you prepared to admit that if one’s life is not bearing fruit in the form of good works then they are not saved?
S
Seeking12
Guest
**Unfortunately your teaching and upbringing has merged justification with sanctification. You are justified; no condemnation at the moment of salvation…period. Salvation by faith is the gospel; dangerous as it may be to you. Your works, which takes away the grace is a gospel I am unfamiliar with and want no part in.
It always help to put things in the proper context, yes Paul is speaking to believers; but He is demonstrating the power of faith in Christ; as verse 11 clearly indicates, but not to a “natural man”.
1 Corinthians 6:9-11 9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, 10 nor thieves, nor {the} covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.
James is a real stumbling block for the the works based religions.
I can’t wait to here your answer between being saved and entering heaven; should be very informative. Here is what you said for reference: “I realize that perhaps you do not recognize the difference between being “saved” and “inheriting the kingdom of God”. There is a difference between being saved and ultimately ending up in Heaven.”
Grace of God covers past, present and future, that why it is Grace. It doesn’t eliminate works; it is the Engine that allows one to do the works God prepared before time. It does not infuse or impart additional Grace. Another way to look at it is works are the result of saving grace, not the means.
I understand why the system works; always on the edge wondering if I’m saved or just giving up and plot around in life doing the rituals and doing nice things for people; in the end hoping the scales balance out in my favor; that the good outweighs the bad and hope for the best in the end. If I didn’t do good enough, which I can’t, then I’ll just hang around purgatory until God decides I’ve paid the price. Doesn’t sound to graceful to me; I wouldn’t treat my own child that way and I see it from a fallen way; whereas God’s grace is perfect. But you do what makes you feel best; we all make the choice one way or another and each his own account before God.**
S
Seeking12
Guest
**
If I didn’t know better, I’d actually say you are purposefully avoiding an intriguing spiritual conversation, one in which we could both learn something. But I would presume you are above that tactic. Is it perhaps, that my post reveals some core problems with your theology? Perhaps not, but I wonder.
I’m glad you’re glad - although based on the comment you first made, I would certainly doubt your sincerity. I am content, but do not KNOW I am saved. This is one of the reasons I engage you in conversation - to see what it’s like to have such confidence in your salvation outside of what I believe to be Christ-granted teaching authority.
Care to re-engage?
God Bless
SteveGC said:
about yours."
True colors? -see above (don’t think I took you out of context there) I could no more convince you the gospel as I understand it is correct; that would take the grace of God. I’m sure you feel the same way.**
O
Odell
Guest
I notice this question went unanswered
S
SteveGC
Guest
Now I’m really getting a feeling you are stiff-arming my questions…seems to be an M.O. of yours around these parts.
You think I was calling the gospel shallow?? If not, quit beating around the bush with cutsey little phrases like ‘true colors’, and tell me what precisely you think the words “same shallow claim” mean to you.
To clarify yet again…
any potential argument that one would make which suggested to another that their spiritual feelings were false is a “shallow claim”, because it can be argued equally by both sides. In other words, saying “I just know I’m right” holds no water…too shallow…anyone can say that.
And I’m not asking you to “convince me that your understood gospel is true”, nor am I trying to convince you that my understanding is true. I’m trying to ask you why there’s even a difference between us to begin with. Specifically, it would be great if you answered the few questions I took the time to offer you in my last couple posts.
Now, can we get on with the post which I originally submitted to you (#144)?
S
Seeking12
Guest
I did take you out of context and apologize; I realized it after you explained what you meant.
P
Philthy
Guest
**
**My “teaching and upbringing”? Rather than speculate on how I arrived at my position, why not simply address the actual points I did make. Salvation is not a “moment” salvation is a participation in the life of God.Works obviate grace??? Where did you come up with that? We are created for good works and empowered to accomplish them by grace. Do you believe that God creates some in Christ Jesus without preparing good works in advance? You even claimed that works are a required component of salvation faith. Did you not mean it?**
**
Demonstrating the power of Christ in what way, friend? Paul has stated - to believers - that they are not to be deceived, and then lists certain behaviors that prevent inheriting the kingdom of God. Are you proposing that he meant to exclude them since they were believers? If so, on what basis in the text to you presume this?
I see you italicized the beginning of verse 11, but I dont know why exactly. You have not explained how this relates to your belief that the Corinthians are exempted from Pauls warning. You have not explained how this relates to your claim that Paul was “demonstrating the power of faith”. Could you please develop your thoughts a little more fully? You left most of your thoughts unspoken.
The difference between being saved and entering Heaven(inheriting the kingdom of God) is that once one is judged worthy of entering Heaven there is no possibility of changing that state. The phases of salvation which occur during our mortal lives, however, are not permanent and can change. One can be “saved” - have their sins forgiven by the blood of Christ - and yet there is still the possibility that they can succumb to the lures of the world, and squander their inheritance, fail to persevere to the end, and ultimately be condemned with the world (ie not inherit the kingdom of God).
Actually this has absolutely nothing to do with why it is grace: it is grace because it is unmerited, a gift. Even though grace is a gift, God, in His wisdom has chosen to attach conditions to grace. Faith is one of them. Cooperation is another. You seem to love to talk in theological generalities; you need to tighten up your communications a bit so that you can be understood. Grace has the CAPACITY to cover all sins, but again, there are conditions in addition to an interior faith. Forgiving others is a condition that Christ clearly articulated in covering sins. “IF you do not forgive others…THEN neither will your Heavenly father forgive you…” It’s pretty straight forward - forgiving others is a condition of receiving Gods forgiveness. I personally regard forgiving others as an “act of faith” and dont see it as distinct from faith as you perhaps do. Whatever the case may be, if you dont forgive others then God will not forgive you. Forgiving others is a LIFETIME responsibility. Our obligation - to allow God to be God in judging others does not cease even if we have made a “confession of faith”. Christ, like Paul in 1 Cor, does not offer any exemptions to this obligation.
con’d
P
Philthy
Guest
That is definitely one way to look at it, but I believe it is only a partial understanding. You are right that grace is the power that fuels “our” good works (they are really Gods being accomplished through us). You are overlooking something, however. When one chooses to not do good works, what is it they are choosing? They are choosing to not cooperate with the grace God has specifically given you to accomplish His will on earth. If that behavior comes to define one’s relationship with God, then that relationship changes from one of sonship to one of disobedience and competition. There eventually is no longer the relationship of Father to son, but adversary to adversary. That is why the beginning of the same prayer that Jesus taught us is “Thy will be done”. It is our way of acknowledging that God is God and we are not. Someone who habitually ignores Gods will is basically testifying that they dont accept that God is God. That is idolatry - which is exactly what Paul calls it.
This is a wonderful speculation. My recommendation - seeing as where on an Apologetics forum - is that we stick to Scripture and what it says and let the cards call where they will. Christ, Peter, Paul and James all place conditions on continuing in the life of grace which is completed only when we are judged by God.
S
SteveGC
Guest
Apology accepted. We have to trust each other that our intentions are genuine, no? Thanks for responding - I have further responded.
My original comments are in black
Your response in purple
My follow up responses in blue
Continued below…
S
SteveGC
Guest
Continued from above…
S
Seeking12
Guest
**If you attach conditions to grace, then it is no longer grace. If you claim God attaches conditions to His grace and that He can take it away or that He will let His own walk away, then you make God something that He is not.**
Works obviate grace??? Where did you come up with that? We are created for good works and empowered to accomplish them by grace. Do you believe that God creates some in Christ Jesus without preparing good works in advance? You even claimed that works are a required component of salvation faith. Did you not mean it?
**Demonstrating the power of Christ in what way, friend? Paul has stated - to believers - that they are not to be deceived, and then lists certain behaviors that prevent inheriting the kingdom of God. Are you proposing that he meant to exclude them since they were believers? If so, on what basis in the text to you presume this?
I see you italicized the beginning of verse 11, but I dont know why exactly. You have not explained how this relates to your belief that the Corinthians are exempted from Pauls warning. You have not explained how this relates to your claim that Paul was “demonstrating the power of faith”. Could you please develop your thoughts a little more fully? You left most of your thoughts unspoken.
The difference between being saved and entering Heaven(inheriting the kingdom of God) is that once one is judged worthy of entering Heaven there is no possibility of changing that state. The phases of salvation which occur during our mortal lives, however, are not permanent and can change. One can be “saved” - have their sins forgiven by the blood of Christ - and yet there is still the possibility that they can succumb to the lures of the world, and squander their inheritance, fail to persevere to the end, and ultimately be condemned with the world (ie not inherit the kingdom of God).
Actually this has absolutely nothing to do with why it is grace: it is grace because it is unmerited, a gift. Even though grace is a gift, God, in His wisdom has chosen to attach conditions to grace. Faith is one of them. Cooperation is another. You seem to love to talk in theological generalities; you need to tighten up your communications a bit so that you can be understood. Grace has the CAPACITY to cover all sins, but again, there are conditions in addition to an interior faith. Forgiving others is a condition that Christ clearly articulated in covering sins. “IF you do not forgive others…THEN neither will your Heavenly father forgive you…” It’s pretty straight forward - forgiving others is a condition of receiving Gods forgiveness. I personally regard forgiving others as an “act of faith” and dont see it as distinct from faith as you perhaps do. Whatever the case may be, if you dont forgive others then God will not forgive you. Forgiving others is a LIFETIME responsibility. Our obligation - to allow God to be God in judging others does not cease even if we have made a “confession of faith”. Christ, like Paul in 1 Cor, does not offer any exemptions to this obligation.
con’d
I can’t even begin to touch anything you said above because I would have to put myself back into original context that you took out, then explain it over again. If you want to touch on a specific point one at a time, than I will be happy to address these. As it is now, we have two different gospels. " the such were of you"; Paul was making the point that the path you were on would have condemned you, but now you are saved and no longer on that path. This passage speaks to those who are in sin and those that have come out of it by Gods grace. **
S
Seeking12
Guest
**We disagree because if someone were to walk away “then they were not of us” and they have been exposed as phonies. No one can thwart the will of God. Man has free-will, but Gods will will always override that free will, which makes it a paradox because then one can argue how is that really free will? Yet it is?? I would say the unregenerate person has free will to sin; while the saved man, who has the mind of Christ, will chose to do the will of God.
I could never buy into a salvation where God would allow you to be saved, then unsaved, then saved, then unsaved; it is unbiblical and distorts the nature of saving grace and God’s character.**
J
JRKH
Guest
Yes I thought as much.
Let us, for a moment look at the context of that verse,
You, however, continue in the things you have learned and become convinced of, knowing from whom you have learned them, 15 and that from childhood you have known the sacred writings which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 16 All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; 17 so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work.
So what is Paul saying about the Sacred Writings?
First he mentions, “From Whom - not what - You learned them”, speaking of Timothy’s faith.
Second He recognizes the value of Sacred writings for giving wisdom
Then He goes on to say WHY they are valuable and that is because they are profitable for teaching…
Since this discussion is a sidelight to the actual discussion of the thread, I will not be-labor the point but suffice it to say this.
The Bible contains the word of God - BUT, my owning a Bible has nothing to do with my salvation. If I READ, that is take in and process the words of the Bible, I am helped on my way to salvation - Assuming of course that I am properly disposed to properly read and interpret the texts that were written down nearly 2000 years ago.
This is why God, in His infinite Wisdom, gave us the Church, and the Holy Spirit, to help guide us on our journey and keep us on course. So that we may, like St Paul Says, “Know from whom we learned them.”
Peace
James
S
Seeking12
Guest
I cannot tell you why God would select me over anyone one else; there is nothing I did or could have done. It puts me in awe of God, my heart sings with thanksgiving to God. I pray that He will allow me to give my children, to whom He gave me, back to Him. I am so blessed, I have a spouse that is saved as well and neither of us were until 10 years after being married. To some it may seem like arrogance, but it is confidence in the God’s promises and the Hope, which is Jesus to come.
- Status