Sola Fide Contradiction

[Seeking12]

No, my days of doing homework are done.

Having cleared up that point, why don’t you respond to my post just above yours.

Your days of doing homework are done; you don’t even know God; so how is it you say your homework is done?

 

[VociMike]

Your days of doing homework are done; you don’t even know God; so how is it you say your homework is done?

Fine, if you want to be pedantic. My days of doing homework assigned by forum posters is done. Better? BTW, I’ve never considered cultivating a loving relationship with any person to be “homework”, so naturally I wasn’t expecting your particular objection.

Now, please respond to my point above, which I repeat here for your convenience:

Here’s the fault I find with “faith alone”. If we must not say “faith and works” because works flow from faith, then by the same logic we should not say “faith alone” because faith flows from grace.

Completely inconsistent. What is rejected on the one hand is accepted on the other.

 

[SteveGC]

It would help if you were able to discern you own Church teaching. "From the moment that a sacrament is celebrated in accordance with the intention of the Church, the power of Christ and his Spirit acts in and through it, independently of the personal holiness of the minister. Nevertheless, the fruits of the sacraments also depend on the disposition of the one who receives them. " Again; if depends on what? What you do or don’t do? Never receive a Sacrament and where will you be according to your own church’s teaching? Are you so blind you can’t even understand what your own Church teaches? It is transparent that you can’t understand what Scripture teaches.
Ephesians: 2:8-9, Matt 16:18, 18:18, John 6:63-68 I don’t want to see your souls condemned; I don’t dislike any Catholic; In fact I have a heart for all of you; it is the teaching you have fallen to that I don’t like; it is not the gospel of Christ and you are in danger.

Thanks for attempting to save me from danger, Seeking.

Here is what our theologies boil down to.

You think Salvation is a gift from God. So do we.
You think Grace is what God gives us freely to make this possilbe. So do we.

You think the FULL Grace of salvation (every last ounce we need for this life) is imparted to an individual the moment he professes belief in Christ, and acceptance of Him as personal Lord and Savior.

We say…“nope”. Stay with me here, now. We’re not saying that Grace just became unnecessary…Indeed, we do need the full amount that is freely given to make it through. But what I, and others here, have been trying to point out to you, is that grace, while given freely, is not received FULLY at the time we make some profession of faith.

To be precise, it starts with baptism, where grace is given, infused into our soul, making us a new creation…it is further given during confirmation, which would be your “altar call”, where we give ascent of our will to follow Christ, accept him as our personal Lord and Savior…and then, we have daily altar calls, where we re-affirm our commitment (our will) toward Christ, receive Him fully, and grace is once again given. And on and on with other sacraments. This is what is meant by the need for proper disposition of the sacrament recipient. So then, what is our works with regard to sacraments? Proper disposition…in other words, ascent of our will, obedience to commandments, repentance of sin, and it is a lifelong process. We do nothing without the Grace of God, not even believe in the first place.

If you understood the sacraments, as we do, how they tie into a personal walk with Christ, you wouldn’t debate the issue as much. But I know you stand firm in your belief that grace is given once, and all we ever will need is given right away, when you make your one-time profession of faith. That’s not a biblical, nor sensible, approach to salvation, my friend.

God Bless

 

[tmac1956]

**You are ignorant of what James is teaching. James is not saying faith plus works; otherwise he is contradicting Paul; right?
Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, {it is} the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.
snip…
**

Ironically, the verse you quoted states that we are saved by grace through faith, (grace & faith) hence not by faith alone. Further, if we are saved by faith alone, why should we need anything else?

Yet, 2 Peter 1:5-8 tells us that faith needs supplementation:

Make every effort to **supplement your faith with virtue, and virtue with knowledge, and knowledge with self-control, and self-control with steadfastness, and steadfastness with godliness, and godliness with brotherly affection, and brotherly affection with love. **For if these things are yours and abound, they keep you from being ineffective or unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

It appears that you hold to an either/or interpretation of scripture; one that inevitably leads to pitting scripture against itself through inherent false dichotomies.

 

[promethius]

You can revise all you want, but that will not distract from the truth that Paul gave us so clearly. The fact that you cannot discern what James is saying does not change the truth. I is time for you to start digging harder as to the meaning of James because we know Scripture does not contradict itself. If it appears to, then you do not understand and need to work a little harder…agree?

I assure you, child, that there is nothing you have to teach me about the bible. I have yet to meet a protestant who had anything new or enlightening to reveal to me in the scriptures. Since I’ve been catholic for 18 years, let me inform you that I’ve been through the bible IN COMPLETION around 4 times.

That sort of complete perspective… well, it allows us not to be deceived when one such as yourself takes a chainsaw to scripture in order to lead others from truth. I’ve noticed you’ve bandied about Ephesians 2: 8-9. Let’s look at that scripture again… but let’s include a little more context:
Ephesians 2- 8/10 (the part protestants don't want you to know about):

8For by grace are ye saved through faith, and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God–
9not by works, lest any man should boast.

10For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath beforehand ordained, that we should walk in them.

Mais Non! how is it possible!?!? Didn’t YOU just tell me that scripture can’t contradict scripture? How is it, then, that Paul seems to contradict himself in the VERY NEXT VERSE?!?!

well, if we look at verses 11-19, we see that the scripture clarifies the above by talking about how the works of THE LAW have been abolished. This becomes clear then: paul rejects the works of the law, but recognizes that we are created in Christ and ordained by God to do GOOD WORKS.

As stated, James and Paul are CLEARLY in agreement here on the nature of works. They are necessarily part of Christian life, and without them faith is dead. Let’s add Jesus to the mix: did He not wither the fig tree that didn’t produce good fruit? So it is clear that all three (not that James or Paul could ever hold a candle in opposition to Christ) agree: good works necessary, without them you are dead (at the least dead in faith)

It is only when you use protestant scriptural tricks that you can become the author of confusion. Thankfully, the church is the pillar of truth for its believers, not shoddy interpretations as has been given here. So, deceived Seeker, I admonish you to read more of your bible before you try to lead faithful Catholics astray again.

 

[promethius]

Your days of doing homework are done; you don’t even know God; so how is it you say your homework is done?

My, my… are you seventh day adventist? Maybe missouri synod?

Or have we discovered a new sect that creates such hate in it’s followers that they forget we are admonished as christians NOT to judge the salvation of others? How, then, do we see here that someone who calls themselves christian, but tries to lead catholics astray with falsely presented snippets from the bible, and now tells someone “they do not know God”?

By any chance, seeking, is what you’re telling us is that sola fide is the correct doctrine we should be going with here?

 

[Dchsknight]

Seeking, James never Contradicts Paul, with out works faith is , Paul is saying with out Faith, works are . Because faith saves not Works. You must have the Faith first, then you must have the works because then if you just have the faith, your doing nothing with your talents, and are going to hell, because you did nothing, With out faith, your works do nothing, because there is nothing we can do to enter heaven by ourself and of our own will, Paul and James Compliment each other, not Contradict each other.

 

[Seeking12]

Here’s the fault I find with “faith alone”. If we must not say “faith and works” because works flow from faith, then by the same logic we should not say “faith alone” because faith flows from grace. Works are the result of saving grace by faith in Christ; not the means…can you see the difference? There is no contradiction.

Completely inconsistent. What is rejected on the one hand is accepted on the other.

****Just because you find fault with what God has plainly stated in Scripture does not change God or the Scripture; it is you that needs to change; otherwise you are going to die in your sin; that is no joke.

Seeing their faith**, Jesus said to the paralytic, “Take courage, son; your sins are forgiven.”

Jesus seeing their faith *said to the paralytic, "Son, your sins are forgiven.

Go; your faith has made you well.

Seeing their faith, He said, "Friend, your sins are forgiven you.

"Your faith has saved you; go in peace.

And on the basis of faith in His name, {it is} the name of Jesus which has strengthened this man whom you see and know; and the faith which {comes} through Him

cleansing their hearts by faith

churches were being strengthened in the faith, and were increasing in number daily.

But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.

For you are all sons of God through **faith **in Christ Jesus.

For by grace you have been saved through faith;

which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which {comes} from God on the basis of faith,

give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

BUT MY RIGHTEOUS ONE SHALL LIVE BY FAITH;

Now faith is the assurance of {things} hoped for

by faith conquered kingdoms, **faith **Rahab the harlot, By **faith **the walls of Jericho, By faith they passed through the Red Sea, By faith he kept the Passover, By faith he left Egypt, By faith Moses, By **faith **Joseph, By faith Jacob, By faith Isaac blessed, By faith Abraham…All these died in "]faith

grace and truth were realized through Jesus Christ.

we are saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, in the same way as they also are."

who had believed through grace,

testify solemnly of the gospel of the grace of God.

being justified as a gift by His grace

our introduction by faith into this grace in which we stand

Grace is mentioned 114 times in the NT and faith is mentioned 228 times. So what I have above is the tip of the grace through faith. Open your eyes; for your own sakes. **

 

[promethius]

Because faith saves not Works.

Clarification: Grace saves, not faith. It saves THROUGH faith, which is made living by the good Christian works for which we are created and ordained.

Sola Fide contradicts the scripture. Real truth (ie, catholic truth) holds to Sola Venia… “only GRACE.”

 

[VociMike]

So seeking, does that mean that you reject “faith alone”?

 

[Roman_Catholic_1]

**You are ignorant of what James is teaching. James is not saying faith plus works; otherwise he is contradicting Paul; right?
Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, {it is} the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Since we know that James cannot be contradicting Paul, then what is James saying. He is simple saying that works are the result of “saving” faith; therefore the true faith that is wrought from God will result in good works whereas faith not wrought of God is dead. Another way to put is it saving faith will always result in good works preordained by God; works are never the means of faith or grace.**

Perhaps you are misunderstanding what Paul is saying? It has to be possible right? Since you are not infallible.

If you put your definition of what you think James means by faith (saving faith), the verse doesn’t make sense:

So (saving) faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead.

How could you have an instance of “saving faith” that does not have works

But some one will say, “You have (saving) faith and I have works.” Show me your (saving) faith apart from your works, and I by my works will show you my (saving) faith.

You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe–and shudder. Do you want to be shown, you shallow man, that (saving) faith apart from works is barren?

If works are a result of saving faith, like you say, then how can you have saving faith be apart from works?

I have to go with the Bible on this one.

God bless

 

[Seeking12]

Seeking, James never Contradicts Paul, with out works faith is , Paul is saying with out Faith, works are . Because faith saves not Works. You must have the Faith first, then you must have the works because then if you just have the faith, your doing nothing with your talents, and are going to hell, because you did nothing, With out faith, your works do nothing, because there is nothing we can do to enter heaven by ourself and of our own will, Paul and James Compliment each other, not Contradict each other.

**You are also teaching a works salvation and are in need of more study in this area. You stated; "then you must have the works because then if you just have the faith, your doing nothing with your talents, and are going to hell, because you did nothing," This is works, which contradicts your opening statement “Because faith saves not Works” Which is it faith alone or faith plus works; it cannot be both.

Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, {it is} the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. **

 

[Roman_Catholic_1]

You are also teaching a works salvation and are in need of more study in this area. You stated; "then you must have the works because then if you just have the faith, your doing nothing with your talents, and are going to hell, because you did nothing," This is works, which contradicts your opening statement “Because faith saves not Works” Which is it faith alone or faith plus works; it cannot be both.

Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, {it is} the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Do you believe faith and repentance are necessary for salvation?

Some believe that faith and repentance, since they are things we do, are works in and of themselves. Even though I do not agree, I kind of see where people who believe this are coming from.

God bless

 

[Seeking12]

Perhaps you are misunderstanding what Paul is saying? It has to be possible right? Since you are infallible.

If you put your definition of what you think James means by faith (saving faith), the verse doesn’t make sense:

How could you have an instance of “saving faith” that does not have works



If works are a result of saving faith, like you say, then how can you have saving faith be apart from works?

I have to go with the Bible on this one.

God bless

**The classic example is the thief on the cross; he had faith that saved Him…right? Did he have any works at all? No. Had he lived; then the works would have followed. Get the point and see the difference? Your Church teaches that works is not separated apart from works; which means works are a means of faith, not the result. That would contradict Paul. Works always follows faith; they are together only in that sense, but they do not walk along side of each other.

You are not going by the Bible because you do not understand what it is saying; otherwise there would be no disagreement.

How could anyone misunderstand Ephesians 2:8-9? To misinterpret that passage would to prove oneself a “natural man”.**

 

[promethius]

You are also teaching a works salvation and are in need of more study in this area. You stated; "then you must have the works because then if you just have the faith, your doing nothing with your talents, and are going to hell, because you did nothing," This is works, which contradicts your opening statement “Because faith saves not Works” Which is it faith alone or faith plus works; it cannot be both.

Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, {it is} the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Can you read, or did you ignore the post where I admonished you to read the rest of Ephesians 2: 8-19?

If you had done that, you would see that what you are posting here is nothing more than a lie due to a scriptural trick of taking words out of contact. The explanation is on the second page of this thread. I suggest you go there.

 

[promethius]

The classic example is the thief on the cross; he had faith that saved Him…right? Did he have any works at all? No. Had he lived; then the works would have followed. Get the point and see the difference? Your Church teaches that works is not separated apart from works; which means works are a means of faith, not the result. That would contradict Paul. Works always follows faith; they are together only in that sense, but they do not walk along side of each other.

Conversely, the thief on the cross DID have a good work. Did he not come to the defense of Jesus and rebuke others for their chastisement? Is not defense of the innocent a work of Christian charity? Faith and works BOTH must be present for faith to be living.

You are not going by the Bible because you do not understand what it is saying; otherwise there would be no disagreement.

I would say that the person who is obviously parsing scriptures to suit her needs has hardly a right to call catholics ignorant of what the scriptures are saying… especially when I showed clearly that you were wrong in your application of Ephesians 2:8-9, a post which you have conveniently ignored…

 

[Seeking12]

Can you read, or did you ignore the post where I admonished you to read the rest of Ephesians 2: 8-19?

If you had done that, you would see that what you are posting here is nothing more than a lie due to a scriptural trick of taking words out of contact. The explanation is on the second page of this thread. I suggest you go there.

**I have read all of Ephesians; you don’t know what you are talking about. Starting in verse 11, Paul goes no to explain how Christ has put the Jews and gentiles under the same umbrella of faith. :banghead:

Do you believe that the Bible teaches faith alone in Christ alone or you must do your part and God does His?**

 

[Roman_Catholic_1]

**The classic example is the thief on the cross; he had faith that saved Him…right? Did he have any works at all? No.

**

There was also an inscription over him, * “This is the King of the Jews.” 39 One of the criminals who were hanged railed at him, saying, “Are you not the Christ? Save yourself and us!” 40 But the other rebuked him, saying, “Do you not fear God, since you are under the same sentence of condemnation? 41* And we indeed justly; for we are receiving the due reward of our deeds; but this man has done nothing wrong.” 42 And he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.” * 43* And he said to him, “Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise.”

You are not going by the Bible because you do not understand what it is saying; otherwise there would be no disagreement

No I understand what the Bible is saying. It is what you are saying that does not match up with the Bible, as can be seen by putting “saving faith” in where faith is used in James.

Seeking, what is your definition of “Faith alone”?

God bless

 

[Seeking12]

Conversely, the thief on the cross DID have a good work. Did he not come to the defense of Jesus and rebuke others for their chastisement? Is not defense of the innocent a work of Christian charity? Faith and works BOTH must be present for faith to be living.
**
Lets say He did a good work, which He didn’t, what you refer to as a good work is a profession of faith and a repentant heart of confession. But nevertheless; which came first the faith or the work? It is the same with water baptism; the saving faith always comes first. You have another gospel that will lead you to the pit.**

I would say that the person who is obviously parsing scriptures to suit her needs has hardly a right to call catholics ignorant of what the scriptures are saying… especially when I showed clearly that you were wrong in your application of Ephesians 2:8-9, a post which you have conveniently ignored…

 

[Roman_Catholic_1]

**
How could anyone misunderstand Ephesians 2:8-9? To misinterpret that passage would to prove oneself a “natural man”.**

Eph does not say faith alone you are adding it into it.

Also you have yet to finish the verse:

For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God not because of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

God bless