Sola Fide Contradiction

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Seeking12 said:
You are not going by the Bible because you do not understand what it is saying; otherwise there would be no disagreement.
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🤷
Conversely, we could say you do not understand the Bible because you do not agree with us.

Again you are claiming to be infallible on the interpretation of Scripture. We read Scripture and do not accept your meaning. We do not have an objection to Scripture, but to your reading of it.

Such is the problem with Sola Scriptura. When two people read it and find it contradictory, who decides what is correct?

Luther and Zwingli held contradictory views. Both condemned the Anabaptists, who condemned both of them. All of them held to Scripture alone. If the reading of Scripture is so apparent, why could they not agree?

Before you can convince us of your interpretation of Scripture, you certainly need to show us your authority to do so.
 
Seeking12 said:
snip… So what I have above is the tip of the grace through faith.**** Open your eyes; for your own sakes.
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Seeking… you seem to be in the habit of contradicting yourself. You claim to hold to faith alone, yet you continually quote scripture in opposition to that man-made doctrine. If it’s faith ALONE, then grace (or anything else for that matter) can have no part in the salvific process. As Catholics, we don’t hold to that fallacious position; consequently, we are not confronted with the insurmountable exegetical hurdles that face you.

Now, perhaps you would like to provide us with a revised definition of faith alone. Obviously, based upon your own statements, you do not truly believe in it.
 
Seeking12 said:
You are ignorant of what James is teaching. James is not saying faith plus works; otherwise he is contradicting Paul; right?
Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, {it is} the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Since we know that James cannot be contradicting Paul, then what is James saying. He is simple saying that works are the result of “saving” faith; therefore the true faith that is wrought from God will result in good works whereas faith not wrought of God is dead. Another way to put is it saving faith will always result in good works preordained by God; works are never the means of faith or grace.
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Actually I think this is well put Seeking12.
The Problem with discussions on these matters are that they are a little like a “chicken/egg” question. Which comes first - Which is more important - does one count without the other and so on.
The bottom line in any such discussion is that True faith results in True works.
The Problem in all of this is 1) How do we know if another has "True Faith. and then 2) How do we know if they are doing good works OF faith.
I am often reminded of Jesus admonishing the disciples not to do things for others to see. To keep their prayer and good works secret that they may have reward in heaven.

I think that what concerns us here is the OSAS error. The possiblility of people losing their salvation by believing that, just because they professed once that Jesus is Lord, and were baptized, that they can then go and do whatever and not be held accountable by God for it.
Baptism is not some sort of One time shot - “free pass”, it is the entry into the most profound, difficult and joyful journey ever. It requires much from us and we must be ready, willing and determined to respond. It requires that we never cease growing in holiness and in service to God. It then requires that, after doing ALL we are humanly capable of -Keeping ALL of God’s precepts, that we stand before our God and say - “I am a poor and worthless servant for I have done no more than what was required of me”.
In this lies the essence of True Faith and Also True works.

Peace
James
 
tmac1956 said:
Seeking… you seem to be in the habit of contradicting yourself. You claim to hold to faith alone, yet you continually quote scripture in opposition to that man-made doctrine. If it’s faith ALONE, then grace (or anything else for that matter) can have no part in the salvific process. As Catholics, we don’t hold to that fallacious position; consequently, we are not confronted with the insurmountable exegetical hurdles that face you.

Now, perhaps you would like to provide us with a revised definition of faith alone. Obviously, based upon your own statements, you do not truly believe in it.
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Exactly. Using his application of “alone” we could just as easily say that we are saved by works alone.
 
Seeking12 said:
**I have read all of Ephesians; you don’t know what you are talking about. Starting in verse 11, Paul goes no to explain how Christ has put the Jews and gentiles under the same umbrella of faith. :banghead: **
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Bold statement. As already stated, I’ve been through the entire bible four times. If we’re going by who has read more, I win.

You’re a deceiver, plain and simple. For here, you’ve completely ignored the fact that Verse 10 of Ephesians 2 completely contradicts what you’ve said. The scriptures make clear that we are created and ordained for good works.

Starting in Verse 11, Paul DOES explain how Jews and Gentiles are placed under “the same umbrella” (ella, ella, hey, hey, hey, hey-ay-ay) 😛 . HOWEVER, he does so by stating that such considerations as circumcision and other works of the law no longer can be used to judge man. This is the same debate that raged in Acts: works of the law vs faith and godly life (of good works).

By understanding that in it’s entirety, we can clearly see that you have misapplied verse 9 and continually do so deliberately, despite the fact that your interpretation that it is “faith alone” that saves is horribly contradictory to the scriptures which make clear “BY GRACE YE HAVE BEEN SAVED”

**
Do you believe that the Bible teaches faith alone in Christ alone or you must do your part and God does His?
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**

Neither. The bible is a book. It doesn’t teach. Teaching is an action verb which under religious matters falls to the church. The bible is part of that method of teaching, but not all of it. If you weren’t subjected to your own prideful interpretation that YOU can infallibly interpret scripture, you would already know this.

I know how you’re going to respond. You’re going to give me a hackjob of scripture from Timothy about how all scripture is good for teaching, reproof, correction, etc, that it might make man ready for salvation. I can already tell you my response:

you have a logical disconnect. The statement ALL A are B does not logically imply that ONLY A are B… So since the bible states ALL scripture is good for X, you cannot logically derive sola scriptura from that. The equivalent would be me saying “All apples are good for your health to eat” therefore, “ONLY apples are good for your health to eat.” As you can see, the protestant interpretation is once again flawed. Especially since the scriptures are clear: the CHURCH is the pillar and bulwark of truth.
Lets say He did a good work, which He didn’t, what you refer to as a good work is a profession of faith and a repentant heart of confession. But nevertheless; which came first the faith or the work? It is the same with water baptism; the saving faith always comes first. You have another gospel that will lead you to the pit.
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No, child. A profession of faith is stating such as the nicene or apostles creed, a statement of what we believe. A repentant heart of confession is part of the body of faith, you are correct. You are incorrect, however, in stating that the act of defending the innocent is either of the above two activities. Defending the innocent is an ACT of christian charity and love. It is something done, even if only verbally.

I think part of your confusion here is that you don’t even understand what is meant by “good works”

And once again you show that you do not even follow the bible when you presume YOURSELF to be the judge of the salvation of men. Come out of wickedness, child, return to the church and let go your pride that blinds you to truth.
 
Roman_Catholic said:
No I understand what the Bible is saying. It is what you are saying that does not match up with the Bible, as can be seen by putting “saving faith” in where faith is used in James.

Seeking, what is your definition of “Faith alone”?

God bless
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**Faith is the assurance of something hoped for; a conviction of things not yet seen. In this case the assurance is the Hope, which is Christ Jesus.

I agree with you that repentance is an act we do, but the saving faith always comes before any work. In other words, God will move in the life of a believer to seek after God; when one finds God they see a rotten sinner before a Holy God and cry out for His mercy; if you are the elect you will have this moment and God will hear and God will justify by pouring our His grace, then you will repent and you will turn to Jesus by faith and you will begin that sanctifying aspect of salvation, which will be obedience to His Lordship.

The best example I can think of at this time is the poor tax collector that could not look up to heaven and simply cried out for mercy.**
 
DavWan said:
🤷
Conversely, we could say you do not understand the Bible because you do not agree with us.

Again you are claiming to be infallible on the interpretation of Scripture. We read Scripture and do not accept your meaning. We do not have an objection to Scripture, but to your reading of it.

Such is the problem with Sola Scriptura. When two people read it and find it contradictory, who decides what is correct?

Luther and Zwingli held contradictory views. Both condemned the Anabaptists, who condemned both of them. All of them held to Scripture alone. If the reading of Scripture is so apparent, why could they not agree?

Before you can convince us of your interpretation of Scripture, you certainly need to show us your authority to do so.
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If you had the Holy Spirit indwelling; you would not need to ask such a question; would you? Kind of hard to say isn’t it?
 
promethius said:
Bold statement. As already stated, I’ve been through the entire bible four times. If we’re going by who has read more, I win.

You’re a deceiver, plain and simple. For here, you’ve completely ignored the fact that Verse 10 of Ephesians 2 completely contradicts what you’ve said. The scriptures make clear that we are created and ordained for good works.

Starting in Verse 11, Paul DOES explain how Jews and Gentiles are placed under “the same umbrella” (ella, ella, hey, hey, hey, hey-ay-ay) 😛 . HOWEVER, he does so by stating that such considerations as circumcision and other works of the law no longer can be used to judge man. This is the same debate that raged in Acts: works of the law vs faith and godly life (of good works).

By understanding that in it’s entirety, we can clearly see that you have misapplied verse 9 and continually do so deliberately, despite the fact that your interpretation that it is “faith alone” that saves is horribly contradictory to the scriptures which make clear “BY GRACE YE HAVE BEEN SAVED”

**

Neither. The bible is a book. It doesn’t teach. Teaching is an action verb which under religious matters falls to the church. The bible is part of that method of teaching, but not all of it. If you weren’t subjected to your own prideful interpretation that YOU can infallibly interpret scripture, you would already know this.

I know how you’re going to respond. You’re going to give me a hackjob of scripture from Timothy about how all scripture is good for teaching, reproof, correction, etc, that it might make man ready for salvation. I can already tell you my response:

you have a logical disconnect. The statement ALL A are B does not logically imply that ONLY A are B… So since the bible states ALL scripture is good for X, you cannot logically derive sola scriptura from that. The equivalent would be me saying “All apples are good for your health to eat” therefore, “ONLY apples are good for your health to eat.” As you can see, the protestant interpretation is once again flawed. Especially since the scriptures are clear: the CHURCH is the pillar and bulwark of truth.

**
No, child. A profession of faith is stating such as the nicene or apostles creed, a statement of what we believe. A repentant heart of confession is part of the body of faith, you are correct. You are incorrect, however, in stating that the act of defending the innocent is either of the above two activities. Defending the innocent is an ACT of christian charity and love. It is something done, even if only verbally.

I think part of your confusion here is that you don’t even understand what is meant by “good works”

And once again you show that you do not even follow the bible when you presume YOURSELF to be the judge of the salvation of men. Come out of wickedness, child, return to the church and let go your pride that blinds you to truth.
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**For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, {it is} the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

Show me where their is works salvation and show all of us where I have taken anything out of context…please. Being created for “good works” to walk in them will not happen until after the saving event; will it?

There is no way you can connect salvation by works by what Paul has stated; in fact Paul went out of the way for the blind among us to say specifically it is NOT of works unless anyone should boast. You are a boaster of works salvation; another gospel will will not lead one to heaven, but the good news is that it is not too late while one is still breathing.**
 
tmac1956 said:
Seeking… you seem to be in the habit of contradicting yourself. You claim to hold to faith alone, yet you continually quote scripture in opposition to that man-made doctrine. If it’s faith ALONE, then grace (or anything else for that matter) can have no part in the salvific process. As Catholics, we don’t hold to that fallacious position; consequently, we are not confronted with the insurmountable exegetical hurdles that face you.

Now, perhaps you would like to provide us with a revised definition of faith alone. Obviously, based upon your own statements, you do not truly believe in it.
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Show me the contradiction rather than generalizing; it is a little more beneficial that way. See previous post, recent, for what faith is.
Pure 100% Grace , through 100% faith in Jesus alone. Anything else is not the gospel of Christ and will condemn one’s soul to everlasting torment.
 
Seeking12 said:
Originally Posted by DavWan

Conversely, we could say you do not understand the Bible because you do not agree with us.
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I’m going to take a wild stab and say that you are refering to agreeing on what Scripture says and who is to decide.
Actually Scripture tells us who is to decide in the case of disagreement. Christ Himself tells us to: “Tell it to the Church.”
And now we are back to the same place we were when you decided to leave that other thread.

Peace
James
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Seeking12 said:
Show me the contradiction rather than generalizing; it is a little more beneficial that way. See previous post, recent, for what faith is.
Pure 100% Grace , through 100% faith in Jesus alone. Anything else is not the gospel of Christ and will condemn one’s soul to everlasting torment.
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What you just described is NOT faith alone. :eek:
 
Seeking12 said:
**For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, {it is} the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them. **
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I know. This is exactly what I’ve been stating all along. Glad to see you’ve finally decided to include verse 10 which states the necessity of the Godly works of the faithful, and that we were created for Godly works.

**
Show me where their is works salvation and show all of us where I have taken anything out of context…please. Being created for “good works” to walk in them will not happen until after the saving event; will it?
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**
No, I will not be attempting to show you where there is “works salvation” because I have not stated that any such thing is possible, nor has the catholic church ever taught that we are saved by works. What I have stated is that we are saved by GRACE, and Grace comes through faith which is made and kept living by good works. GRACE is our salvation, faith and works go hand in hand towards that end. The scripture makes this VERY clear, and it is only through linguistic “hop-scotch” that you can arrive at the false doctrine of sola fide. Again, I tell you plainly and scripturally that Sola VENIA (grace) is the way of truth.

**
There is no way you can connect salvation by works by what Paul has stated; in fact Paul went out of the way for the blind among us to say specifically it is NOT of works unless anyone should boast.
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**
**It’s a good thing I haven’t said anything about a “works based salvation” which does not exist. Are you now trying to deceive by pretending that I have asserted a doctrine which does not exist? **
As already stated, your wild interpretation places a contradiction in the bible, for verse 10 above clearly states that we are created and ordained for good works though Christ. Your lack of understanding, then, falls in your failure to accept that there is a marked difference between works of the law (old covenent) and Godly works (new covenant).
**
You are a boaster of works salvation; another gospel will will not lead one to heaven, but the good news is that it is not too late while one is still breathing.
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**

This is another lie on your part. I support no such thing as works based salvation, and your repititious assertion that I do in no part affects the fact that I do not and have never supported the idea that any amount of works can justify us towards salvation. The fact that you have to lie even about what I said is very telling as to the nature of your argument.
 
Seeking12 said:
If you had the Holy Spirit indwelling; you would not need to ask such a question; would you? Kind of hard to say isn’t it?
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Ah, but that means with Luther, Zwingli and Calvin at least two of them did not have that indwelling, and possibly all three did not. If Scripture cannot contradict Scripture, they could not be all right, but all of them could be wrong.

You claim the Indwelling for yourself, and say that if we had it we would not disagree with you. However, since Sola Scriptura has visible evidence of it being false (numerous denominations in disagreement over the “plain meaning” of Scripture), it means there is no way for any person to know whether they are interpreting it rightly or not.

How can you establish that we are wrong and you are right, instead of the reverse? Remember we do revere the Bible. Therefore if we apply your principles to ourselves, we have the indwelling and you do not.

So you can see that thinking you have the indwelling is no proof that you do.

There is another error on your part. The apostles did not preach from a book. They preached their witness of the risen Jesus Christ. It was their credibility that led people to search the Scriptures as the Bereans did. There were many false prophets and many heretics who quoted Scripture, but this did not make their claims true.

Where is your credibility, Seeking? The Apostles had the unwritten teachings of Christ, some of which were later written down, but not all (See John 20:30-31). The later heresies that denied Jesus was God pointed to Scripture, but went against the teaching of the Apostles.

So your problems here are:
  1. *]You have no credibility that what you hold is from God
    *]Your claimed doctrine of Sola Fide and Sola Scriptura are contradicted by Scripture
    *]Sola Fide is contradicted by the fact that those who believe it cannot agree on its meaning, even though the meaning is said to be “plain.”
    *]Your personal experiences, we can claim for ourselves
    *]Your only claim of proof is that if we were with God, we would agree with you

    In short, we have to accept your message on your say so against what Scripture, History and visible evidence says. We need to believe in an arbitrary God who has a contradictory Bible.

    No thanks. What we have is passed on from the Apostles to the present without any breaks. I will not set it aside for something which cannot verify it is even from God, in light of the warnings Christ gave of false teachings.
 
Seeking, You know you really are like a typical Protestant, Ashamed of your own sin and unwilling to Follow what Christ put down. WE ARE SAVED BY GRACE THROUGH FAITH…End of the line? Heck no! From that Faith and grace comes the works and we have to have the works. Just like the parable of the Servants and Talents.

All we need to do to have the First initail Salvation is Grace and Faith. But out of that Grace and Faith come the works not because you have to. but because you Love God so deeply you do as he Commands. Paul and james both said, You show me your faith, by talking and words. I will show you my faith by my works.

If your a believer and you walk down the street and you see some one needy and you Ignore them, guess what your not saved and you are going to Hell, because jesus said What you do to the least of these you do to me.

You must have Grace and Faith First, but you must do those works after, other ways you are lukewarm and God will spit you out of his mouth. Your problem is that your Look at one part of the bible when you should be looking at it as a whole. All of Scripture, backs up scripture.

For Isntance you say you must have Faith alone, but what about 1 john where it says, You must have love, if you do not have love, the Love of God is not in you. So by that, You can have all the faith and grace you want, with out love your Screwed. What were Jesus says that you must eat the flesh and drink the and if you dont you have no life in you…what about that?

You see, You must have Faith through Grace, but it can not be alone. You must work, because your works comes from your faith, Read the bible as a whole not just one Book.
 
If we are going to discuss Sola(s) - Perhaps we should see if Jesus taught any Sola Doctrine. After all since Jesus is The Christ and Our Lord and Savior we should look directly to His Words as recorded in the Gospels.

As a matter of fact I Started a thread in July Last year that covered this very thing. If anyone is interested in what Jesus taught we need to believe and do, HERE is the LINK

The consensus among catholic and non-catholics alike seemed to say that Jesus never taught any “Sola” such as we know them today.

To me - I’d have to day that if Jesus could be said to have taught any “Sola” it was Love.
See the “Two Greatest Commandments”
See Jesus last command to the Apostles to “Love one another as I have Loved you”.

Peace
James
 
vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/documents/rc_pc_chrstuni_doc_31101999_cath-luth-joint-declaration_en.html
.In faith we together hold the conviction that justification is the work of the triune God. The Father sent his Son into the world to save sinners. The foundation and presupposition of justification is the incarnation, death, and resurrection of Christ. Justification thus means that Christ himself is our righteousness, in which we share through the Holy Spirit in accord with the will of the Father. Together we confess: By grace alone, in faith in Christ’s saving work and not because of any merit on our part, we are accepted by God and receive the Holy Spirit, who renews our hearts while equipping and calling us to good works.[11]
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16.All people are called by God to salvation in Christ. Through Christ alone are we justified, when we receive this salvation in faith. Faith is itself God’s gift through the Holy Spirit who works through word and sacrament in the community of believers and who, at the same time, leads believers into that renewal of life which God will bring to completion in eternal life.
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17.We also share the conviction that the message of justification directs us in a special way towards the heart of the New Testament witness to God’s saving action in Christ: it tells us that as sinners our new life is solely due to the forgiving and renewing mercy that God imparts as a gift and we receive in faith, and never can merit in any way.
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I would encourage everyone to read the document. It is not all-encompassing, but I believe a true evidence of the Holy Spirit moving to bring Christians together.

Jon
 
JonNC said:
vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/documents/rc_pc_chrstuni_doc_31101999_cath-luth-joint-declaration_en.html

I would encourage everyone to read the document. It is not all-encompassing, but I believe a true evidence of the Holy Spirit moving to bring Christians together.

Jon
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**Jon, you are joking I hope.
  1. All people are called by God to salvation in Christ. Not True
  2. Faith is itself God’s gift through the Holy Spirit who works through word and sacrament - Not true - that is another gospel.
  3. true evidence of the Holy Spirit moving to bring Christians together. Not True You will never see the physical body of Christ in unity while we are in sinful nature; believers are united in Christ through the Holy Spirit.**
 
JonNC said:
vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/documents/rc_pc_chrstuni_doc_31101999_cath-luth-joint-declaration_en.html

I would encourage everyone to read the document. It is not all-encompassing, but I believe a true evidence of the Holy Spirit moving to bring Christians together.

Jon
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Jon,

“Salvation by Grace alone” is like music to my soul.

I feel at ease everytime I hear it. Thanks be to God!

Amazing Grace,
How sweet the sound,
that saved a wretch like me

God bless
 
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