Sola Fide Contradiction

[DavWan]

Jon, you are joking I hope.

I sure wish you were

1. All people are called by God to salvation in Christ. Not True

So you believe God chooses to damn people regardless of what they might long for and nothing they might wish to do can change that? The God you describe could not be called good, and at the final judgment, the person so damned could say to God “You made me this way and I have no say in the matter, so I am not to blame for being this way.”

I’m glad the Catholic Church understands the Bible properly. I could never blaspheme God the way you do.

 

[Seeking12]

promethius:
I know. This is exactly what I’ve been stating all along. Glad to see you’ve finally decided to include verse 10 which states the necessity of the Godly works of the faithful, and that we were created for Godly works.

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No, I will not be attempting to show you where there is “works salvation” because I have not stated that any such thing is possible, nor has the catholic church ever taught that we are saved by works. What I have stated is that we are saved by GRACE, and Grace comes through faith which is made and kept living by good works. GRACE is our salvation, faith and works go hand in hand towards that end. The scripture makes this VERY clear, and it is only through linguistic “hop-scotch” that you can arrive at the false doctrine of sola fide. Again, I tell you plainly and scripturally that Sola VENIA (grace) is the way of truth.

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**It’s a good thing I haven’t said anything about a “works based salvation” which does not exist. Are you now trying to deceive by pretending that I have asserted a doctrine which does not exist? **

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As already stated, your wild interpretation places a contradiction in the bible, for verse 10 above clearly states that we are created and ordained for good works though Christ. Your lack of understanding, then, falls in your failure to accept that there is a marked difference between works of the law (old covenent) and Godly works (new covenant).

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This is another lie on your part. I support no such thing as works based salvation, and your repititious assertion that I do in no part affects the fact that I do not and have never supported the idea that any amount of works can justify us towards salvation. The fact that you have to lie even about what I said is very telling as to the nature of your argument.**
**Here; I will prove the point by your own words. Answer this; must one receive the sacraments as instituted by the Catholic Church for salvation? Yes or no
**

 

[Seeking12]

I sure wish you were

So you believe God chooses to damn people regardless of what they might long for and nothing they might wish to do can change that? The God you describe could not be called good, and at the final judgment, the person so damned could say to God “You made me this way and I have no say in the matter, so I am not to blame for being this way.”

I’m glad the Catholic Church understands the Bible properly. I could never blaspheme God the way you do.

You are also joking; the Catholic church teaches no one outside of receiving their sacraments or anyone who disagrees with the “real presence” unless they are in “ignorance” has been cursed by the Church. You do blaspheme God; you claim to know His attributes; yet you say He cannot be good because you are the clay and He is the potter and He makes vessels for destruction and He makes others for honor. He hardens who He wants. you are the blasphemer.

 

[Seeking12]

Ah, but that means with Luther, Zwingli and Calvin at least two of them did not have that indwelling, and possibly all three did not. If Scripture cannot contradict Scripture, they could not be all right, but all of them could be wrong.

You claim the Indwelling for yourself, and say that if we had it we would not disagree with you. However, since Sola Scriptura has visible evidence of it being false (numerous denominations in disagreement over the “plain meaning” of Scripture), it means there is no way for any person to know whether they are interpreting it rightly or not.

How can you establish that we are wrong and you are right, instead of the reverse? Remember we do revere the Bible. Therefore if we apply your principles to ourselves, we have the indwelling and you do not.

So you can see that thinking you have the indwelling is no proof that you do.

There is another error on your part. The apostles did not preach from a book. They preached their witness of the risen Jesus Christ. It was their credibility that led people to search the Scriptures as the Bereans did. There were many false prophets and many heretics who quoted Scripture, but this did not make their claims true.

Where is your credibility, Seeking? The Apostles had the unwritten teachings of Christ, some of which were later written down, but not all (See John 20:30-31). The later heresies that denied Jesus was God pointed to Scripture, but went against the teaching of the Apostles.

So your problems here are:

1. *]You have no credibility that what you hold is from God
   *]Your claimed doctrine of Sola Fide and Sola Scriptura are contradicted by Scripture
   *]Sola Fide is contradicted by the fact that those who believe it cannot agree on its meaning, even though the meaning is said to be “plain.”
   *]Your personal experiences, we can claim for ourselves
   *]Your only claim of proof is that if we were with God, we would agree with you
   
   In short, we have to accept your message on your say so against what Scripture, History and visible evidence says. We need to believe in an arbitrary God who has a contradictory Bible.
   
   No thanks. What we have is passed on from the Apostles to the present without any breaks. I will not set it aside for something which cannot verify it is even from God, in light of the warnings Christ gave of false teachings.

1. 
   **
   What is sola scriptura and what is it not? Then we can continue.
   
   What does the Bible say about all the religious people in this world that name the name of Jesus. Hint Matthew 7:13-14**

 

[DavWan]

**Here; I will prove the point by your own words. Answer this; must one receive the sacraments as instituted by the Catholic Church for salvation? Yes or no
**

How about an answer from the Bible?

John 3:5 “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God"

Acts 2: 37 Now when they heard this they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Brethren, what shall we do?” 38 And Peter said to them, “Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

So there is one sacrament right there. Baptism

John 6:53 So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you; 54 he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. 55 For my flesh is food indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. 56 He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him. 57 As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so he who eats me will live because of me. 58 This is the bread which came down from heaven, not such as the fathers ate and died; he who eats this bread will live for ever.”

There is another. Eucharist

Acts 8:14 Now when the apostles at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent to them Peter and John, 15 who came down and prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit; 16 for it had not yet fallen on any of them, but they had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 17 Then they laid their hands on them and they received the Holy Spirit.

Confirmation also needed.

John 20:21 Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.” 22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.”
I could go on, but you see that we believe they are necessary from the testimony of Jesus and the Apostles.

 

[Seeking12]

Eph does not say faith alone you are adding it into it.

Also you have yet to finish the verse:

God bless

Faith plus what then?

 

[DavWan]

**
What is sola scriptura and what is it not? Then we can continue.

What does the Bible say about all the religious people in this world that name the name of Jesus. Hint Matthew 7:13-14**

So, do you claim that not all who seek Jesus will find Him? What does that say of Jesus the Shepherd? Especially in light of just above what you cite: 7 “Ask, and it will be given you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. 8 For every one who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened. 9 Or what man of you, if his son asks him for bread, will give him a stone? 10 Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a serpent? 11 If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask him! 12 So whatever you wish that men would do to you, do so to them; for this is the law and the prophets.

Also, consider further down in Matt 7: 21 “Not every one who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

So acts do matter, if the acts are the will of God, and God will come to those who seek Him.

 

[Roman_Catholic_1]

Faith plus what then?

Well you and I have already talked about repentance.

Also Grace would be important.

God bless

 

[Seeking12]

How about an answer from the Bible?

John 3:5 “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God"

Acts 2: 37 Now when they heard this they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Brethren, what shall we do?” 38 And Peter said to them, “Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

So there is one sacrament right there. Baptism

John 6:53 So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you; 54 he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. 55 For my flesh is food indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. 56 He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him. 57 As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so he who eats me will live because of me. 58 This is the bread which came down from heaven, not such as the fathers ate and died; he who eats this bread will live for ever.”

There is another. Eucharist

Acts 8:14 Now when the apostles at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent to them Peter and John, 15 who came down and prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit; 16 for it had not yet fallen on any of them, but they had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 17 Then they laid their hands on them and they received the Holy Spirit.

Confirmation also needed.

John 20:21 Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.” 22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.”
I could go on, but you see that we believe they are necessary from the testimony of Jesus and the Apostles.

**Total and complete ignorance concerning Scripture; not one passage is in its correct context as you presented. Here is one example; go to verse 63-39 and pay close attention to how Jesus explains the context of His message and then look at what you call the first pope says. John 6:63-69

Thanks for bringing my attention to Acts 8:14; another proof that water baptism does not save. Brother do you read the Bible very often?**

 

[Seeking12]

Well you and I have already talked about repentance.

Also Grace would be important.

God bless

I believe you are closer to the truth than most; you are certainly very kind as far as I can tell over this forum.

**Of Grace through faith in Christ.

True repentance happens when God pulls the veil from one’s eyes to be able to see the truth, then you have that heart of repentance and cry out to God for mercy; then in His mercy one receives His grace of forgiveness, by faith through Christ. There are no works added to this salvation, but good works will result from that salvation. **

 

[DavWan]

**Total and complete ignorance concerning Scripture; not one passage is in its correct context as you presented. Here is one example; go to verse 63-39 and pay close attention to how Jesus explains the context of His message and then look at what you call the first pope says. John 6:63-69

Thanks for bringing my attention to Acts 8:14; another proof that water baptism does not save. Brother do you read the Bible very often?**

I do read it often. I question whether you do however. If you interpret Acts 8:14 as saying water baptism does not save, then it contradicts John 3 and Acts 2 which makes it necessary.

It might surprise you that all your objections we have heard long ago, and they have been rebutted. But as to the first Pope, what do you think of 1 Peter 3:21-22?

The more you argue, the more you contradict other verses in Scripture. I really can’t give your claims any credibility as that would mean I would have to admit Scripture contradicts itself.

 

[Seeking12]

So, do you claim that not all who seek Jesus will find Him? What does that say of Jesus the Shepherd? Especially in light of just above what you cite: 7 “Ask, and it will be given you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. 8 For every one who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened. 9 Or what man of you, if his son asks him for bread, will give him a stone? 10 Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a serpent? 11 If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask him! 12 So whatever you wish that men would do to you, do so to them; for this is the law and the prophets.

**Also, consider further down in Matt 7: 21 “Not every one who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

So acts do matter, if the acts are the will of God, and God will come to those who seek Him.**
What I am saying is that you have a large group of religious people who claim the name of Christ, but many are on the broad road that leads to destruction and only a few find the narrow path which leads to life. This is why you get a little further into Matthew 7 and get into the 2 foundation and into the Lord Lord…depart from me…I never know you. Many people are self deceived into thinking they know Christ or believe making a profession or are going in with their religions baggage; they believe they are heading to heaven, but are headed for hell. Then the few that actually find Christ are the ones on the narrow path and it is not associated with their religious affiliation or any works, it was all of grace, through faith in Christ.

Look at the beginning of the Sermon on the Mount, Jesus first public sermon and look at the first words out of His mouth, this is very important to understand.
“Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.” The classic example of this is the poor tax collector who would not put his eyes to heaven and begged God for mercy; he was very poor in spirit and cried out to God and was justified. Whether he was water baptized after that we do not know.

How does one enter the Kingdom; starts with being poor in spirit, which is a heartfelt realization that you are rotten to the core before you and their is nothing you have to offer God; you can only beg for mercy…you are spiritually bankrupt.

The next thing out of Jesus mouths builds from the first “Blessed are those who mourn, for they shall be comforted.” Mourning over you own sin before God knowing how you have offended Him.

 

[DavWan]

What I am saying is that you have a large group of religious people who claim the name of Christ, but many are on the broad road that leads to destruction and only a few find the narrow path which leads to life. This is why you get a little further into Matthew 7 and get into the 2 foundation and into the Lord Lord…depart from me…I never know you. Many people are self deceived into thinking they know Christ or believe making a profession or are going in with their religions baggage; they believe they are heading to heaven, but are headed for hell. Then the few that actually find Christ are the ones on the narrow path and it is not associated with their religious affiliation or any works, it was all of grace, through faith in Christ.

Look at the beginning of the Sermon on the Mount, Jesus first public sermon and look at the first words out of His mouth, this is very important to understand.
“Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.” The classic example of this is the poor tax collector who would not put his eyes to heaven and begged God for mercy; he was very poor in spirit and cried out to God and was justified. Whether he was water baptized after that we do not know.

How does one enter the Kingdom; starts with being poor in spirit, which is a heartfelt realization that you are rotten to the core before you and their is nothing you have to offer God; you can only beg for mercy…you are spiritually bankrupt.

The next thing out of Jesus mouths builds from the first “Blessed are those who mourn, for they shall be comforted.” Mourning over you own sin before God knowing how you have offended Him.

Gee, and you never considered that adults seeking baptism do repent and change? I do recommend that before you continue that you do learn what our Church teaches

 

[Seeking12]

I do read it often. I question whether you do however. If you interpret Acts 8:14 as saying water baptism does not save, then it contradicts John 3 and Acts 2 which makes it necessary.

It might surprise you that all your objections we have heard long ago, and they have been rebutted. But as to the first Pope, what do you think of 1 Peter 3:21-22?

The more you argue, the more you contradict other verses in Scripture. I really can’t give your claims any credibility as that would mean I would have to admit Scripture contradicts itself.

**
1 Peter 3:21-22 Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you–not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience–through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

Peter is saying not water baptism “not the removal of dirt from the flesh” this is the real spiritual baptism by the Holy Spirit. Remember what John the Baptist said in Matthew 3; "As for me, I baptize you with water for repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, and I am not fit to remove His sandals; He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire. Water baptism is symbolic; whereas the Baptism with the Holy Spirit; this is the real and true baptism that saves. It is our seal or guarantee of salvation. The “and fire” at the end of the verse is another Baptism yet to come; the judgment**.

 

[Seeking12]

Gee, and you never considered that adults seeking baptism do repent and change? I do recommend that before you continue that you do learn what our Church teaches

**The fact that your Church teaches that God doses out saving grace in increments by doing the Sacraments according to Church authority; is another gospel; a false one.

Anyone that has a true heart of repentance and humbles Himself before God and begs for mercy; will be saved based on His grace period.**

 

[DavWan]

**
1 Peter 3:21-22 Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you–not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience–through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

Peter is saying not water baptism “not the removal of dirt from the flesh” this is the real spiritual baptism by the Holy Spirit. Remember what John the Baptist said in Matthew 3; "As for me, I baptize you with water for repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, and I am not fit to remove His sandals; He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire. Water baptism is symbolic; whereas the Baptism with the Holy Spirit; this is the real and true baptism that saves. It is our seal or guarantee of salvation. The “and fire” at the end of the verse is another Baptism yet to come; the judgment**.

Excuse me, but this is eisegesis pure and simple. You deny the possibility of water baptism saving, so you deny that the Bible references mean water baptism. You deny that the Eucharist is real, so you claim that it was intended in a different manner and so on.

You are reading into the Bible what you already believe, making the Bible fit what you think it should mean. Unfortunately the rest of us can see that for it to mean what you want, it must contradict itself.

Jesus told the Apostles to Baptize
The Apostles Baptize and consider it important
You consider it not needed

Seems to me your ideas are not of the Apostles. They aren’t Scriptural ideas either, as you have to explain away too many verses.

Under 1 Thes 5, I think you have been tried and found to be false:

19 Do not quench the Spirit, 20 do not despise prophesying, 21 but test everything; hold fast what is good, 22 abstain from every form of evil.

Sorry, but my faith is too precious to be abandoned at the say so of someone who makes the Bible into a contradictory mess

 

[DavWan]

The fact that your Church teaches that God doses out saving grace in increments by doing the Sacraments according to Church authority; is another gospel; a false one.
Listening to you and comparing it to what the Catholic Church teaches is to see you do not even understand what we believe. If you do not understand us, how can you credibly tell us we are wrong?

Anyone that has a true heart of repentance and humbles Himself before God and begs for mercy; will be saved based on His grace period.

The person who is repentant and humble will also seek out what God decreed. If Jesus did not make the Sacraments necessary, we would not want them.

 

[Seeking12]

Excuse me, but this is eisegesis pure and simple. You deny the possibility of water baptism saving, so you deny that the Bible references mean water baptism. You deny that the Eucharist is real, so you claim that it was intended in a different manner and so on.

You are reading into the Bible what you already believe, making the Bible fit what you think it should mean. Unfortunately the rest of us can see that for it to mean what you want, it must contradict itself.

Jesus told the Apostles to Baptize
The Apostles Baptize and consider it important
You consider it not needed

Seems to me your ideas are not of the Apostles. They aren’t Scriptural ideas either, as you have to explain away too many verses.

Under 1 Thes 5, I think you have been tried and found to be false:

19 Do not quench the Spirit, 20 do not despise prophesying, 21 but test everything; hold fast what is good, 22 abstain from every form of evil.

Sorry, but my faith is too precious to be abandoned at the say so of someone who makes the Bible into a contradictory mess

You are in a great deal of mess; however you do prove the Scripture true on one account. I am positive unless you change; you are dead in your sin; the Kingdom is not open to you right now.

 

[Seeking12]

Listening to you and comparing it to what the Catholic Church teaches is to see you do not even understand what we believe. If you do not understand us, how can you credibly tell us we are wrong?

The person who is repentant and humble will also seek out what God decreed. If Jesus did not make the Sacraments necessary, we would not want them.

**
At least you finally admitted the Sacraments are necessary for salvation according to what you have been taught.**

 

[Roman_Catholic_1]

I believe you are closer to the truth than most; you are certainly very kind as far as I can tell over this forum.

**Of Grace through faith in Christ.

True repentance happens when God pulls the veil from one’s eyes to be able to see the truth, then you have that heart of repentance and cry out to God for mercy; then in His mercy one receives His grace of forgiveness, by faith through Christ. There are no works added to this salvation, but good works will result from that salvation. **

I am at a loss. I am not sure where we are disagreeing. Granted I have not read the entire thread.

If I were forced to put salvation into just a single sentence then I would say that we are saved by Grace alone, through faith in Jesus Christ. To quote Chesterton* “the simplification of anything is always sensational”* but there it is.

You would say (and have said) that we are saved by Grace alone, through faith alone in Jesus Christ.

However when you define what you mean by “faith alone” it sounds like what I mean when I say “faith”. If by “faith alone” you mean a faith that is not just an intellectual consent, but rather a faith that is combined and joined with works (works that are God working in us) a faith that is repentant and alive (by the Holy Spirit) in charity and in love, then I am not sure where I disagree with you, or where you disagree with me for that matter

I just prefer to use the word “alone” only when it is associated with Grace. If you want to use the word “alone” with faith, but define “faith alone” as a faith that is not, in the end, alone, then I suppose I don’t have any qualms with that. Just be prepared to remind me what you mean by “faith alone”

God bless