Sola Fide Contradiction

[tmac1956]

**The fact that your Church teaches that God doses out saving grace in increments by doing the Sacraments according to Church authority; is another gospel; a false one.

Anyone that has a true heart of repentance and humbles Himself before God and begs for mercy; will be saved based on His grace period.**

This is your personal opinion based upon your own (or perhaps your pastor’s) fallible interpretation of scripture - nothing more. I have my own personal and fallible interpretation of scripture. Under your doctrine of Sola Scriptura, my interpretation is just a valid as yours. Further, everyone who reads scripture can interpret it as they feel inspired to do so. The Holy Spirit is telling you one thing, but tells me something else, and perhaps tells the congregation at your local Sothern Baptist Church another thing, while revealing something different to your local Free Will Baptist Church, simultaneously giving a different inspiration to the Lutherans, Methodists, Presbyterians, et. al. Can you not see the fallacy here?

I believe it was Bishop Fulton Sheen who said that while God placed limits on our intellect, he placed none what-so-ever on our stupidity.

I apologize up front to everyone here if this appears rude but, based upon the dozens of statements like those you made in this post; I can no longer take you seriously.

 

[Odell]

The classic example is the thief on the cross; he had faith that saved Him…right? Did he have any works at all? No. Had he lived; then the works would have followed. Get the point and see the difference?".

Great example where is his works mister faith alone but faith not alone

You say works follow saving faith

Don’t you see the very verse you use that you say contradict our faith contradicts yours as well when used the way you choose to interprit it
?

 

[guanophore]

You are ignorant of what James is teaching.

If a person perceives what he reads differently than you, he is not necessarily “ignorant”. Such a person may be differently educated.

James is not saying faith plus works; otherwise he is contradicting Paul; right?

I agree. James is saying that saving faith is faith that works. Faith is made evident in the works. this is why Catholics do not separate faith from works - the Apsotles did not.

Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, {it is} the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Since we know that James cannot be contradicting Paul, then what is James saying. He is simple saying that works are the result of “saving” faith; therefore the true faith that is wrought from God will result in good works whereas faith not wrought of God is dead.

It is very Catholic of you to say this!

Another way to put is it saving faith will always result in good works preordained by God; works are never the means of faith or grace.

James also states clearly that we are justified by our faith that works, and that our works perfect our faith. They are not to be separated from one another.

I will also throw in a caveat that a person can be saved who is not able to produce good works. HOwever, this is not the “norm”.

 

[DavWan]

**
At least you finally admitted the Sacraments are necessary for salvation according to what you have been taught.**

Indeed. Scripture backs us up as well. Unfortunately you have nobody to appeal to as to which one of us has it right.

You are in a great deal of mess; however you do prove the Scripture true on one account. I am positive unless you change; you are dead in your sin; the Kingdom is not open to you right now.

That seems to be your unquestioned and unquestionable assumption. However, I am glad that it is God who will judge me and not you.

Please remember however that Jesus said in Matt 7:1 “Judge not, that you be not judged. 2 For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and the measure you give will be the measure you get."

Have a care for when you reach the judgment.

 

[Seeking12]

I am at a loss. I am not sure where we are disagreeing. Granted I have not read the entire thread.

If I were forced to put salvation into just a single sentence then I would say that we are saved by Grace alone, through faith in Jesus Christ. To quote Chesterton* “the simplification of anything is always sensational”* but there it is.

You would say (and have said) that we are saved by Grace alone, through faith alone in Jesus Christ.

However when you define what you mean by “faith alone” it sounds like what I mean when I say “faith”. If by “faith alone” you mean a faith that is not just an intellectual consent, but rather a faith that is combined and joined with works (works that are God working in us) a faith that is repentant and alive (by the Holy Spirit) in charity and in love, then I am not sure where I disagree with you, or where you disagree with me for that matter

I just prefer to use the word “alone” only when it is associated with Grace. If you want to use the word “alone” with faith, but define “faith alone” as a faith that is not, in the end, alone, then I suppose I don’t have any qualms with that. Just be prepared to remind me what you mean by “faith alone”

God bless

You are on it!!

 

[guanophore]

I grow ill from all this ignorant Catholic-bashing.

It is an occasion of more prayer. remember that there are many lurkers on thread, and that some of them probably have been misled about the Catholic faith just like Seeking, but are not bold enough to posts. Although you may not be able to reach Seeking, you may be able to reach others.

Because Seeking seems to take pleasure in ignoring ACTUAL Church teaching, I am re-submitting my above post, for his review.  I would ask that he actually read it, without his anti-Catholic lenses on for once.

I don’t believe that he will be able to do this, Steve. From reading the posts, it seems to me that Seeking is getting more hostile to the Catholic faith, not less.

**

He seems to insist that we believe our works merit our salvation, that we hold firm to the idea that grace means nothing to us.

His lack of willingness to understand what the Church really teaches, and his prejudice and bigotry toward the Church prevents him from relinquishing these errant views. This is part of the definition of bigotry.

If it weren’t so utterly annoying that he robotically claim that our works are done without “true faith”, it would be amusing. So please read this Seeking, read it slowly, and if you then want to refute something, refute it from official teaching…

Thanks for posting the info. I am sure it will help someone.

You could also, if you wanted to, Seeking, read the whole CCC for free by going to this site

. I would think anyone who really wanted to proselytize Catholics out of their faith, should AT LEAST know what they are ACTUALLY taught, don’t you?

I would think that also. However, given the number of evangelistic posts I read last night, this is clearly not the case. The mantra seems to be “you will die in your sins”. I myself was told that I am a “false” believer. **

 

[Seeking12]

This is your personal opinion based upon your own (or perhaps your pastor’s) fallible interpretation of scripture - nothing more. I have my own personal and fallible interpretation of scripture. Under your doctrine of Sola Scriptura, my interpretation is just a valid as yours. Further, everyone who reads scripture can interpret it as they feel inspired to do so. The Holy Spirit is telling you one thing, but tells me something else, and perhaps tells the congregation at your local Sothern Baptist Church another thing, while revealing something different to your local Free Will Baptist Church, simultaneously giving a different inspiration to the Lutherans, Methodists, Presbyterians, et. al. Can you not see the fallacy here?

I believe it was Bishop Fulton Sheen who said that while God placed limits on our intellect, he placed none what-so-ever on our stupidity.

I apologize up front to everyone here if this appears rude but, based upon the dozens of statements like those you made in this post; I can no longer take you seriously.

The Holy Spirit is the one that leads to all truth for the believer. So if your interpreter is the Holy Spirit, then there shouldn’t be a problem. If there is any other interpreter, then you have some serious trouble. Just a thought.

 

[DavWan]

The Holy Spirit is the one that leads to all truth for the believer. So if your interpreter is the Holy Spirit, then there shouldn’t be a problem. If there is any other interpreter, then you have some serious trouble. Just a thought.

Which means, given the amount of contradictions of those who interpret the Scriptures for themselves, either:

1. *]The Holy Spirit leads people to contradictory interpretations
   *]Some of the people who believe they are lead by the Holy Spirit are mistaken
   
   The first is nonsensical.
   
   Consider this when judging others.

 

[Seeking12]

Indeed. Scripture backs us up as well. Unfortunately you have nobody to appeal to as to which one of us has it right. SHOW ME; GOOD LUCK; REMEMBER THERE ARE SEVEN.

That seems to be your unquestioned and unquestionable assumption. However, I am glad that it is God who will judge me and not you. ** IT IS NOT TOO LATE**

Please remember however that Jesus said in Matt 7:1 “Judge not, that you be not judged. 2 For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and the measure you give will be the measure you get."

Have a care for when you reach the judgment.

I won’t be at the great white throne, but I will be at the Bema Seat. I hope to see you there as well.

 

[Seeking12]

Which means, given the amount of contradictions of those who interpret the Scriptures for themselves, either:

1. *]The Holy Spirit leads people to contradictory interpretations
   *]Some of the people who believe they are lead by the Holy Spirit are mistaken
   
   The first is nonsensical.
   
   Consider this when judging others.

1. 
   You are starting to understand; that is great! Most people who name the name of Christ give lip service, but only the “few” actually possess Christ. Remember the “natural man” cannot understand the things of God.

 

[DavWan]

You are starting to understand; that is great! Most people who name the name of Christ give lip service, but only the “few” actually possess Christ. Remember the “natural man” cannot understand the things of God.

Starting to understand?

Why do you think I was rejecting your interpretations from the beginning?

What you have not done is to establish why your own interpretations of Scripture should be held above every other who holds Sola Scriptura. Luther, Calvin, Zwingli, the Anabaptists… all held they were the ones properly interpreting Scripture, while the other three rejected their interpretations.

Which interpretation do you hold? Or do you hold all of them are wrong in some ways?

Your own testimony speaks against the concept of the Bible Alone. People, using the Bible have justified all sorts of things. Others have denied those interpretations.

Your only claim to authority is the “Indwelling” of the Holy Spirit. However, others who claim the same hold to different interpretations of Scripture, and they would hold they have the Indwelling while you do not.

The Catholic position is one I hold out of both Spiritual Conviction and reason. Any other position is to deny reason and to believe God can contradict Himself.

 

[JRKH]

The Holy Spirit is the one that leads to all truth for the believer. So if your interpreter is the Holy Spirit, then there shouldn’t be a problem. If there is any other interpreter, then you have some serious trouble. Just a thought.

And a good thought at that.
However then the question becomes how does one discern whether they are truly being led by the “Holy Spirit” or an UnHoly Spirit?

It appears obvious that we cannot rely exclusively on the Bible for this since there are so many contradictory interpretations.
As you and I have discovered in our other conversation on another thread, even your small church, in matters of disagreement, would have to assemble, thrash it out and vote to determine the correct interpretation.
Then you, as you said yourself, would need to submit to that decsison made by “the church”.
You would have to submit - even if you disagreed with it. That is your, “Indwelling of the Holy Spirit”, told you this was a bad decision.

It also appears, especially in these kinds of “Sola” discussions that the devil trips everyone up in the “Details”. We argue back and forth about the relative importance and/or the exact definition of Faith, Grace, Love, Works, Sancification, Justification, etc. etc. etc.

Her is another “Thought”

The Long and the Short of it all is that Jesus NEVER taught ANY of the “SOLAs” that are tossed about - and THAT is good enough for me.
Yes we can find various quotes from Jesus talking about what is required to enter the Kingdom, but they all require a combination of (in no particular order)-
Reliance on the Mercy and Providence of God
Faith and Trust upon our part toward God
Proper Fear - That leads to Love of God
Complete Love of God and neighbor
Actions - taking our Love of God and neighbor out DOING things.
NEVER being satisfied with what you have done - in the sense that God deserves ALL we can give plus more.
Praying constantly for God’s Will in our Lives and the Grace to do His will.

Preaching any part of this without preaching it all is to preach an incomplete Gospel. Arguing over the relative merits, strengths, order, or definitions of the above is also playing directly into the hands of the Devil who will continue split christians apart whenever and wherever possible.

To All of US. - We need to quit arguing amongst ourselves and get to work building the kingdom.

In all of this discussion Let’s remember that Jesus taught that the greatest commandment is LOVE. Love is what ALL of the Law and the Prophets are based upon.
LOVE of God -
LOVE of neighbor -
Love of Our Enemies
and to
LOVE each other as HE has LOVED us.

And if anyone wishes to drag St Paul into the mix - Paul supported this most clearly when he said:

1 Corinthians 13:1-13
1 If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but do not have love, I have become a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. 2 If I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. 3 And if I give all my possessions to feed the poor, and if I surrender my body to be burned, but do not have love, it profits me nothing.

**4 Love is patient, love is kind and is not jealous; love does not brag and is not arrogant, 5 does not act unbecomingly; it does not seek its own, is not provoked, does not take into account a wrong suffered, 6 does not rejoice in unrighteousness, but rejoices with the truth; 7 bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. **

8 Love never fails; but if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part; 10 but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away. 11 When I was a child, I used to speak like a child, think like a child, reason like a child; when I became a man, I did away with childish things. 12 For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I will know fully just as I also have been fully known. 13 But now faith, hope, love, abide these three; but the greatest of these is love.

Let us all ponder upon these words.
How is That for a Thought.

Peace
James

 

[Roman_Catholic_1]

You are on it!!

I suppose you and I are done in this thread then. Thanks for the discussion.

God bless

 

[guanophore]

It would help if you were able to discern you own Church teaching. "From the moment that a sacrament is celebrated in accordance with the intention of the Church, the power of Christ and his Spirit acts in and through it, independently of the personal holiness of the minister. Nevertheless, the fruits of the sacraments also depend on the disposition of the one who receives them. " **Again; if depends on what? What you do or don’t do? **

This is a good question, and I thank you for asking it!

“Disposition” is not necessarily related to “doing”, though there are some actions that can influence disposition. Yesterday I read the example you gave of the sinner who was praying in the Temple. He was “disposed” to receive grace - and went home justified. What did he “do” ? He went to theTemple to pray, he humbled himself, he took responsibility for his sins, he asked for God’s mercy. these actions reflect the heart of one “disposed” to receive grace.

The Apostles taught that every individual has the responsibility to personally respond to God’s grace. Each person can either open or close their heart to Him.
Seeking12;4868022:

Never receive a Sacrament and where will you be according to your own church’s teaching?

God can save whoever He wants, However He wants. The sacraments are given as sure channels of his grace. I think you will not “get” this until you are able to understand how Jesus used the mud to heal the eyes of the blind man. Was the mud necessary?

I don’t want to see your souls condemned;

Had you considered excusing yourself from CAF? That way, you would not have to watch.

I don’t dislike any Catholic;

Gosh. After all the rude and disrespectful remarks you have made in the last couple days, I would sure hate to be on your “dislike” list!

In fact I have a heart for all of you; it is the teaching you have fallen to that I don’t like; it is not the gospel of Christ and you are in danger.

If your mistaken notions of what we believe were, in fact, what we actually believe, then you would be right. However, as it is, clearly you have never been exposed to the full Apostolic Gospel.

it is you that needs to change; otherwise you are going to die in your sin; that is no joke.

No joke, Seeking12, proselytizing Catholics is not allowed on this site. We are here to answer sincere questions about the Catholic faith.

CAF is not a “field” or venue in which you evangelize Catholics. I believe you are sincere in your faith and intentions, and if you wish to learn about what the Catholic Church believes and teaches, that is why we are here. If you wish to evangelize Catholics, or criticize the Catholic faith, I recommend that you find another site.

BUT MY RIGHTEOUS ONE SHALL LIVE BY FAITH

;

I am glad that you found all these verses on faith, Seeking12. What you don’t seem to know is that they were written by Catholics. They are in the NT becuase the CAtholic Church produced the NT, and it reflects what the Catholic Church believes and teaches.

grace

and truth were realized through Jesus Christ.

This is the Teaching of the Apostles, preserved in the Catholic Church.

Open your eyes; for your own sakes.

And I suggest you visit the forum rules, for your own sake.

 

[guanophore]

The classic example is the thief on the cross; he had faith that saved Him…right? Did he have any works at all? No. ".

It is difficult to do good works when you are nailed to the cross. However, he did do a couple things that were good works. He rebuked the other criminal, who was criticizing Christ. It is a good work to rebuke wrongdoers. He also made a profession of faith, and he made a witness to Christ “this man has done nothing wrong”. All these are good deeds, though limited by his circumstances, of course.

Had he lived; then the works would have followed. Get the point and see the difference?

We can certainly speculate as much. No, I don’t get your point.
It seems to me that you are trying to separate faith from the good works they produce.

Why would someone do something so contrary to Apostolic Teaching?

Your Church teaches that works is not separated apart from works; which means works are a means of faith, not the result.

This seems kind of confusing. I will agree that the Apostles taught that saving faith is never separated from the good works it produces. However, both are the result of grace.

It is also true that there are things we can do that will increase our faith, and make us better disposed to grace. To the one htat has, more will be given.

How did Cornelius come to God’s attention?

That would contradict Paul.

No. Your understanding of what Paul wrote is what is contradictory.

Works always follows faith; they are together only in that sense, but they do not walk along side of each other.

Well, we read it differently.

You are not going by the Bible because you do not understand what it is saying; otherwise there would be no disagreement.

Actually, we are not going by your interpretation of the bible. But, I agree, if we interpreted it like you do, there would be not disagreement. We don’t have that luxury. We are bound to receive the faith that was committed to us by our Apostles. The modern innovations you propose constitute what they referred to as “a different gospel”, so we must reject it.

How could anyone misunderstand Ephesians 2:8-9? To misinterpret that passage would to prove oneself a “natural man”.

What you seem to be saying here is that, anyone who does not believe as you do is unspiritual.

** you don’t know what you are talking about. :banghead:

Do you believe that the Bible teaches faith alone in Christ alone or you must do your part and God does His?**

It seems like people will only know what they are talking about if they agree with your interpretations.

No, I don’t believe that the Bible teaches. Teaching is an activity that requries a “person”. Books don’t “teach” themselves. Teaching is a gift that Jesus gave to the Church.

Faith is never alone, Seeking. Faith is always accompanied by Love and Hope. Saving faith places us in a right relationship with God. When that happens, we die to ourselves, and our lives are hidden with Christ, in God. It is no longer we who live but the life we now live, we live to God. Our cooperation with His grace is Christ within us, the hope of glory.

 

[guanophore]

**For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, {it is} the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

Show me where their is works salvation and show all of us where I have taken anything out of context…please. **

I could show you ‘WORKS SALVATION’ only in your own posts. The Catholic Church does not teach this, so it cannot be shown from any Catholic source.

Being created for “good works” to walk in them will not happen until after the saving event; will it?

Since the Apostles did not teach that salvation is an “event” but a process, I think this would be hard to defend. I will agree that any good works on our part that do not take place in a state of grace will not have any eternal benefit.

There is no way you can connect salvation by works by what Paul has stated;

I agree. It is a puzzle to me why you feel a need to do so. Apparently you are so stuck in your anti-Catholic bigotry, and the falsehoods you have been taught, that you cannot accept that you have been misinformed.

in fact Paul went out of the way for the blind among us to say specifically it is NOT of works unless anyone should boast.

He and the other Apostles also went out of their way to make it clear that works are never separated from salvation.

You are a boaster of works salvation;

I have not seen any Catholics on any of the threads “boasting”. What is your evidence for this?

You are the only one here proposing that “works salvation” even exists. It is a practical impossiblity, and from a Catholic perspective, does not exist. Apparently it exists in the mind of Seeking12, who wants to try to convince Catholics that we believe something we don’t.

another gospel will will not lead one to heaven, but the good news is that it is not too late while one is still breathing.

I agree! I hope that your prejudice will not prevent you from learning while you are here.

 

[Seeking12]

Starting to understand?

Why do you think I was rejecting your interpretations from the beginning?

What you have not done is to establish why your own interpretations of Scripture should be held above every other who holds Sola Scriptura. Luther, Calvin, Zwingli, the Anabaptists… all held they were the ones properly interpreting Scripture, while the other three rejected their interpretations.

Which interpretation do you hold? Or do you hold all of them are wrong in some ways?

Your own testimony speaks against the concept of the Bible Alone. People, using the Bible have justified all sorts of things. Others have denied those interpretations.

Your only claim to authority is the “Indwelling” of the Holy Spirit. However, others who claim the same hold to different interpretations of Scripture, and they would hold they have the Indwelling while you do not.

The Catholic position is one I hold out of both Spiritual Conviction and reason. Any other position is to deny reason and to believe God can contradict Himself.

**
Enjoy life; because it is but a vapor…good luck to you and I do wish you the best of life!**

 

[Seeking12]

I suppose you and I are done in this thread then. Thanks for the discussion.

God bless

Thank you; you have been a breath of rationality and fresh air; I look forward to speaking with you again soon on this or another thread. God bless friend!

 

[Seeking12]

And a good thought at that.
However then the question becomes how does one discern whether they are truly being led by the “Holy Spirit” or an UnHoly Spirit?

It appears obvious that we cannot rely exclusively on the Bible for this since there are so many contradictory interpretations.
As you and I have discovered in our other conversation on another thread, even your small church, in matters of disagreement, would have to assemble, thrash it out and vote to determine the correct interpretation.
Then you, as you said yourself, would need to submit to that decsison made by “the church”.
You would have to submit - even if you disagreed with it. That is your, “Indwelling of the Holy Spirit”, told you this was a bad decision.

It also appears, especially in these kinds of “Sola” discussions that the devil trips everyone up in the “Details”. We argue back and forth about the relative importance and/or the exact definition of Faith, Grace, Love, Works, Sancification, Justification, etc. etc. etc.

Her is another “Thought”

The Long and the Short of it all is that Jesus NEVER taught ANY of the “SOLAs” that are tossed about - and THAT is good enough for me.
Yes we can find various quotes from Jesus talking about what is required to enter the Kingdom, but they all require a combination of (in no particular order)-
Reliance on the Mercy and Providence of God
Faith and Trust upon our part toward God
Proper Fear - That leads to Love of God
Complete Love of God and neighbor
Actions - taking our Love of God and neighbor out DOING things.
NEVER being satisfied with what you have done - in the sense that God deserves ALL we can give plus more.
Praying constantly for God’s Will in our Lives and the Grace to do His will.

Preaching any part of this without preaching it all is to preach an incomplete Gospel. Arguing over the relative merits, strengths, order, or definitions of the above is also playing directly into the hands of the Devil who will continue split christians apart whenever and wherever possible.

To All of US. - We need to quit arguing amongst ourselves and get to work building the kingdom.

In all of this discussion Let’s remember that Jesus taught that the greatest commandment is LOVE. Love is what ALL of the Law and the Prophets are based upon.
LOVE of God -
LOVE of neighbor -
Love of Our Enemies
and to
LOVE each other as HE has LOVED us.

And if anyone wishes to drag St Paul into the mix - Paul supported this most clearly when he said:

1 Corinthians 13:1-13
1 If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but do not have love, I have become a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. 2 If I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. 3 And if I give all my possessions to feed the poor, and if I surrender my body to be burned, but do not have love, it profits me nothing.

**4 Love is patient, love is kind and is not jealous; love does not brag and is not arrogant, 5 does not act unbecomingly; it does not seek its own, is not provoked, does not take into account a wrong suffered, 6 does not rejoice in unrighteousness, but rejoices with the truth; 7 bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. **

8 Love never fails; but if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part; 10 but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away. 11 When I was a child, I used to speak like a child, think like a child, reason like a child; when I became a man, I did away with childish things. 12 For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I will know fully just as I also have been fully known. 13 But now faith, hope, love, abide these three; but the greatest of these is love.

Let us all ponder upon these words.
How is That for a Thought.

Peace
James

**
The contradictions I have seem here seem to come from within your own party; the Protestants here seem to be on the same page and from what I have read are very consistent in their understanding of Scripture. However; you must know and understand a great deal more information, which adds to the problem among Catholics; obviously some are better than others.

A true believer does and can know if they have the resident Holy Spirit; wouldn’t make sense to have the mind of Christ and Spirit and not know it; God is not a mystery when it comes to what He has chosen to reveal to us. I will say when one receives the Holy Spirit; their life is changed for good and forever. I can look back on my old self and clearly see a new self; more importantly in some ways, the people closest to me can see it as well. I can also tell you that nearly every thought, word and deed that comes about in any given day is fixated on the Trinity. I can’t turn it off; it is always there. I am very thankful for that as well.

1 Corinthians 2:10-13 & 16b For to us God revealed {them} through the Spirit; for the Spirit searches all things, even the depths of God. 11 For who among men knows the {thoughts} of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so the {thoughts} of God no one knows except the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may know the things freely given to us by God, 13 which things we also speak, not in words taught by human wisdom, but in those taught by the Spirit,…But we have the mind of Christ.**

 

[guanophore]

** you are joking I hope.

1. All people are called by God to salvation in Christ. Not True**

not joking at all, Seeking12. you have been indoctrinated by an error called “limited atonement” that emerged during the reformation about 500 years ago. It is contrary to Apostolic Teaching, which affirms that everyone is called to salvation in Christ.

**
2) Faith is itself God’s gift through the Holy Spirit who works through word and sacrament - Not true - that is another gospel…**

I am sure it seems different to you. It is not likely you have ever known the Apostolic faith.

you will not be able to understand sacraments unless you can understand about the mud.

** 3) true evidence of the Holy Spirit moving to bring Christians together. Not True You will never see the physical body of Christ in unity while we are in sinful nature; believers are united in Christ through the Holy Spirit.**

Sounds like something the enemy would love to see and promote. However, Jesus was quite clear that we would be made visible to the world through our unity with one another.

**Here; I will prove the point by your own words. Answer this; must one receive the sacraments as instituted by the Catholic Church for salvation? Yes or no
**

No, Seeking12. God can save whoever He wants, however He likes. Did He have to use mud to cure the blind man? If not, why did He?

Sacraments are the normative means through which His grace flows. It is by this grace that He upholds the Church.

You are also joking; the Catholic church teaches no one outside of receiving their sacraments or anyone who disagrees with the “real presence” unless they are in “ignorance” has been cursed by the Church. You do blaspheme God; you claim to know His attributes; yet you say He cannot be good because you are the clay and He is the potter and He makes vessels for destruction and He makes others for honor. He hardens who He wants. you are the blasphemer.

Sorry, Seeking12, this is just another pack of lies you have been taught. If you are willing to look at what the Catholic Church actually teaches, you will find that these things you have been given to believe are not true.

It is not appropriate for you to come to CAF and accuse the members here of blasphemy. If you feel in irresistable need to disparage our faith, then it will be necesary for you to take it elsewhere.

Faith plus what then?

It is not “plus” it is “through”. It is faith, working through love. Like it is grace, working through faith.

Then the few that actually find Christ are the ones on the narrow path and it is not associated with their religious affiliation or any works, it was all of grace, through faith in Christ.

This may come as a shock to you, Seeking12, but God’s grace need not be devoid of religion and works. No separation is necessary.

1 Peter 3:21-22 Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you–not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience–through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

Peter is saying not water baptism “not the removal of dirt from the flesh” this is the real spiritual baptism by the Holy Spirit.

No, Seeking12. Peter is saying that water baptism corresponds to God saving Noah through the water. It is not a “bath” to remove dirt from the body, but passing through the water to cleanse the conscience. Baptism washes away all sins, both original, and personal.

The Apostles’ never separated water from the Baptism in the HS. This is why they taught there is “One Baptism”. They go together. Jesus joined the hs to the water when he was baptized.

Remember what John the Baptist said in Matthew 3; "As for me, I baptize you with water for repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, and I am not fit to remove His sandals; He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire. Water baptism is symbolic; whereas the Baptism with the Holy Spirit; this is the real and true baptism that saves. It is our seal or guarantee of salvation. The “and fire” at the end of the verse is another Baptism yet to come; the judgment

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Water baptism effects what it signifies. The baptism of the hs was never separated from water until recent 'new gospels" sprang up with anti-Catholic sentiments.

The fact that your Church teaches that God doses out saving grace in increments by doing the Sacraments according to Church authority; is another gospel; a false one.

I agree! fortunately, the Catholic Church has never, and does not now, teach such a thing. The fact that you are passing around such lies constitutes the bearing of false witness against your neighbor.

Anyone that has a true heart of repentance and humbles Himself before God and begs for mercy; will be saved based on His grace period.

The Apostles taught that such a decision is up to God, so we leave it to his mercy. In the meantime, the fullness of faith was committed to the Church, and because we are members of her, we must embrace what we have received.