Sola fide discussion with baptist dad

[Cathoholic]

"If it’s a “free gift” (salvation) works are not required. Otherwise, it’s not “free”.

This is a partial truth.

Nothing humanity has to offer ( including our natural faith incidentally) is required for Jesus to save us. But once Jesus saves us (through Baptism or being " Born again"), then we MUST draw interest on the talents, I mean the supernatural faith, hope, and charity He poured into us.

And for those that are entrusted with talents but draw no interest, for those who bear no fruit, for those who do not maintain oil in their lamps, they are tossed out into the night where there is wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Once we are saved and empowered by Christ, we need to utilize the gifts of supernatural faith, hope, and charity we we gifted with and continue to be gifted with (the channels of grace by necessity continue unless we reject them).

 

[fhansen]

So my dad replied almost as if he didn’t read what I said.

“If it’s a “free gift” (salvation) works are not required. Otherwise, it’s not “free”. As sinners, God will condemn us to hell. however, if we love God and Jesus, believe, have faith He will save us, we will receive God’s Grace and be saved. But, again, beware those who would pretend. He knows your heart. Don’t say you believe, just to get salvation, but keep evil in your heart”

How can I tell him about the role of our works in salvation in a way he will understand?

As Paul made clear in 1 Cor 13, faith and love are separate virtues, so, yes,. faith, alone, is insufficient. “The only thing that counts is faith working through love.” (Gal 5:6) If the the lazy servant in the Parable of the Talents had invested what was given him, the grace to produce fruit for the kingdom, would he have been booted from the kingdom? “For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.” (Eph 2:10) And as has been said, a totally free gift wouldn’t even involve faith, BTW; salvation would be completely universal.

 

[Justin61790]

This is a partial truth.

Nothing humanity has to offer ( including our natural faith incidentally) is required for Jesus to save us. But once Jesus saves us (through Baptism or being " Born again"), then we MUST draw interest on the talents, I mean the supernatural faith, hope, and charity He poured into us.

And for those that are entrusted with talents but draw no interest, for those who bear no fruit, for those who do not maintain oil in their lamps, they are tossed out into the night where there is wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Once we are saved and empowered by Christ, we need to utilize the gifts of supernatural faith, hope, and charity we we gifted with and continue to be gifted with (the channels of grace by necessity continue unless we reject them).

I know Im new here and dont want to step on anyones toes, but I wanted to provide the book chapter and verse you are referencing here.

Shaolen, direct your father to Mathew 25: 14-30. Like Cathoholic points out God has given us something and expects us to do things with that gift. Not bury it and do nothing with it.

 

[ericc]

So my dad replied almost as if he didn’t read what I said.

“If it’s a “free gift” (salvation) works are not required. Otherwise, it’s not “free”. As sinners, God will condemn us to hell. however, if we love God and Jesus, believe, have faith He will save us, we will receive God’s Grace and be saved. But, again, beware those who would pretend. He knows your heart. Don’t say you believe, just to get salvation, but keep evil in your heart”

How can I tell him about the role of our works in salvation in a way he will understand?

The gift is free only if you take (action) it. If it is dangling there but you did not cooperate with it, you got nothing. The heavenly gates are opened by Christ death (redemption) , but salvation is not automatic. Few will be saved. If salvation is automatic, there will be no need for baptism, repentance, no need for recitation of the sinner’s prayer etc.

In many cases of miracles performed by Jesus, Jesus extol the faith of the beseecher. However one noticed that the beseecher actually has to act to show his faith.

Mat 8:5-10 Healing of the centurion servant. The centurion has to seek out Jesus to heal his servant. Mental faith will not work even though God knows the hearts and mind of everyone.
Mk 2:4-5. Healing of the paralytic. These people showed their faith by removing the roof and lowering the paralytic into the house.
Mat 9:20-22 Healing of woman with hemorrhage. The woman touched his garment
Mat 15:28 Healing of Canaanite woman 's daughter. Persistence. Try again and again.
Luk 7:50 Sinful woman forgiven though her acts of piety. “Your faith has saved you”

In all these cases, those with faith actually have to demonstrate their faith. Jesus knew their situations, but if you do not approach Him, no miracles happen. Luk 7:50 her sins were forgiven not through mental requests or inaction, but through her acts of showing remorse.

I find a scarcity of examples in the Bible for faith without accompanying actions. Abraham, he put his son’s life on the line. He has faith that God will keep his promises that his descendants will be as many as the stars. A dead Issac will break this promise. When God told Abram to pack up and go, he did that with faith.

Faith without works is dead. Redemption without salvation is death too. Salvation requires repentance, baptism, obeying his commandments, eat his flesh. All requires one to do something, Faith with absence of works of charity is a dead faith.

 

[ericc]

So my dad replied almost as if he didn’t read what I said.

“If it’s a “free gift” (salvation) works are not required. Otherwise, it’s not “free”. As sinners, God will condemn us to hell. however, if we love God and Jesus, believe, have faith He will save us, we will receive God’s Grace and be saved. But, again, beware those who would pretend. He knows your heart. Don’t say you believe, just to get salvation, but keep evil in your heart”

How can I tell him about the role of our works in salvation in a way he will understand?

The gift is free only if you take (action) it. If it is dangling there but you did not cooperate with it, you got nothing. The heavenly gates are opened by Christ death (redemption) , but salvation is not automatic. Few will be saved. If salvation is automatic, there will be no need for baptism, repentance, no need for recitation of the sinner’s prayer etc.

In many cases of miracles performed by Jesus, Jesus extol the faith of the beseecher. However one noticed that the beseecher actually has to act to show his faith.

Mat 8:5-10 Healing of the centurion servant. The centurion has to seek out Jesus to heal his servant. Mental faith will not work even though God knows the hearts and mind of everyone.
Mk 2:4-5. Healing of the paralytic. These people showed their faith by removing the roof and lowering the paralytic into the house.
Mat 9:20-22 Healing of woman with hemorrhage. The woman touched his garment
Mat 15:28 Healing of Canaanite woman 's daughter. Persistence. Try again and again.
Luk 7:50 Sinful woman forgiven though her acts of piety. “Your faith has saved you”

In all these cases, those with faith actually have to demonstrate their faith. Jesus knew their situations, but if you do not approach Him, no miracles happen. Luk 7:50 her sins were forgiven not through mental requests or inaction, but through her acts of showing remorse.

I find a scarcity of examples in the Bible for faith without accompanying actions. Abraham, he put his son’s life on the line. He has faith that God will keep his promises that his descendants will be as many as the stars. A dead Issac will break this promise. When God told Abram to pack up and go, he did that with faith.

Faith without works is dead. Redemption without salvation is death too. Salvation requires repentance, baptism, obeying his commandments, eat his flesh. All requires one to do something, Faith with absence of works of charity is a dead faith.

 

[ericc]

So my dad replied almost as if he didn’t read what I said.

“If it’s a “free gift” (salvation) works are not required. Otherwise, it’s not “free”. As sinners, God will condemn us to hell. however, if we love God and Jesus, believe, have faith He will save us, we will receive God’s Grace and be saved. But, again, beware those who would pretend. He knows your heart. Don’t say you believe, just to get salvation, but keep evil in your heart”

How can I tell him about the role of our works in salvation in a way he will understand?

The gift is free only if you take (action) it. If it is dangling there but you did not cooperate with it, you got nothing. The heavenly gates are opened by Christ death (redemption) , but salvation is not by default. Few will be saved

In many cases of miracles performed by Jesus, Jesus extold the faith of the beseecher. However one noticed that the beseecher actually has to act to show his faith.

Mat 8:5-10 Healing of the centurion servant. The centurion has to seek out Jesus to heal his servant. Mental faith will not work even though God knows the hearts and mind of everyone.
Mk 2:4-5. Healing of the paralytic. These people showed their faith by removing the roof and lowering the paralytic into the house.
Mat 9:20-22 Healing of woman with hemorrhage. The woman touched his garment
Mat 15:28 Healing of Canaanite woman 's daughter. Persistence. Try again and again.
Luk 7:50 Sinful woman forgiven though her acts of piety. “Your faith has saved you”

In all these cases, those with faith actually have to demonstrate their faith. Jesus knew their situations, but if you do not approach Him, no miracles happen. Luk 7:50 her sins were forgiven not through mental requests or inaction, but through the acts of showing remorse.

I find a scarcity of examples in the Bible for faith without accompanying actions. Abraham, he put his son’s life on the line. He has faith that God will keep his promises that his descendants will be as many as the stars. A dead Issac will break this promise. When God told Abram to pack up and go, he did that with faith.

Faith without works is dead. Redemption without salvation is death too. Salvation requires repentance, baptism, obeying his commandments. Works of charity. What James is saying is that claiming one got faith is not good enough, show it. If you can’t show it, you ain’t got no faith. As the song goes:

Yes, they will know we are Christians BY our Love, BY our Love.

If you can’t show your love, or people can’t see your love, how will they know you are Christians? Works of charity!

 

[Cathoholic]

Justin61790.

Welcome to CAF!

You asked:

I know Im new here and dont want to step on anyones toes, but I wanted to provide the book chapter and verse you are referencing here.

. . . regarding this . . .

Originally Posted by Cathoholic

This is a partial truth.

Nothing humanity has to offer ( including our natural faith incidentally) is required for Jesus to save us. But once Jesus saves us (through Baptism or being " Born again"), then we MUST draw interest on the talents, I mean the supernatural faith, hope, and charity He poured into us.

And for those that are entrusted with talents but draw no interest, for those who bear no fruit, for those who do not maintain oil in their lamps, they are tossed out into the night where there is wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Once we are saved and empowered by Christ, we need to utilize the gifts of supernatural faith, hope, and charity we we gifted with and continue to be gifted with (the channels of grace by necessity continue unless we reject them).

I will try to get what you want here. Let me know if you need more. I usually try to give some backing for various assertions but the above was an android tablet post and was too cumbersome for copy and paste Scriptures, etc.

---

Nothing humanity has to offer is required for Jesus to save us . . .

. . . . See this post (here on this thread) RE: Titus 3:5 for example.

Also some CCC and Trent items below that support the above assertion (with bold and ul mine) . . .

CCC 1996 Our justification comes from the grace of God. Grace is favor, the free and undeserved help that God gives us to respond to his call to become children of God, adoptive sons, partakers of the divine nature and of eternal life.46

CCC 2007 With regard to God, there is no strict right to any merit on the part of man. Between God and us there is an immeasurable inequality, for we have received everything from him, our Creator.

CCC 2008 The merit of man before God in the Christian life arises from the fact that God has freely chosen to associate man with the work of his grace. The fatherly action of God is first on his own initiative, and then follows man’s free acting through his collaboration, so that the merit of good works is to be attributed in the first place to the grace of God, then to the faithful. Man’s merit, moreover, itself is due to God, for his good actions proceed in Christ, from the predispositions and assistance given by the Holy Spirit.

The Council of Trent, Session 6:

Canon 1.
If anyone says that man can be justified before God by his own works, whether done by his own natural powers or through the teaching of the law,[110] without divine grace through Jesus Christ, let him be anathema.

Canon 3.
If anyone says that without the predisposing inspiration of the Holy Ghost[111] and without His help, man can believe, hope, love or be repentant as he ought,[112] so that the grace of justification may be bestowed upon him, let him be anathema.

Continued (next post) . . . . . .

 

[Cathoholic]

Continued from last post . . .

You stated:

. . . but I wanted (you to) to provide the book chapter and verse you are referencing here.

Regarding (bold mine) . . .

And for those that are entrusted with talents but draw no interest, for those who bear no fruit, for those who do not maintain oil in their lamps, . . . .

Parable of the Ten Virgins . . .

MATTHEW 25:1-13 1 "Then the kingdom of heaven shall be compared to ten maidens who took their lamps and went to meet the bridegroom. 2 Five of them were foolish, and five were wise. 3 For when the foolish took their lamps, they took no oil with them; 4 but the wise took flasks of oil with their lamps. 5 As the bridegroom was delayed, they all slumbered and slept. 6 But at midnight there was a cry, ‘Behold, the bridegroom! Come out to meet him.’ 7 Then all those maidens rose and trimmed their lamps. 8 And the foolish said to the wise, ‘Give us some of your oil, for our lamps are going out.’ 9 But the wise replied, ‘Perhaps there will not be enough for us and for you; go rather to the dealers and buy for yourselves.’ 10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came, and those who were ready went in with him to the marriage feast; and the door was shut. 11 Afterward the other maidens came also, saying, ‘Lord, lord, open to us.’ 12 But he replied, ‘Truly, I say to you, I do not know you.’ 13 Watch therefore, for you know neither the day nor the hour.

“We MUST draw interest on the talents, I mean the supernatural faith, hope, and charity He poured into us.” . . . .

(If you are asking about supernatural faith, hope, and charity I will have to go a little deeper and that might take me a day or two to post it [let me know if that is what you want] as I have some other things going on tomorrow and MIGHT not get to it).

MATTHEW 25:10-26a, 30 10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came, and those who were ready went in with him to the marriage feast; and the door was shut. 11 Afterward the other maidens came also, saying, ‘Lord, lord, open to us.’ 12 But he replied, ‘Truly, I say to you, I do not know you.’ 13 Watch therefore, for you know neither the day nor the hour. 14 "For it will be as when a man going on a journey called his servants and entrusted to them his property; 15 to one he gave five talents, to another two, to another one, to each according to his ability. Then he went away. 16 He who had received the five talents went at once and traded with them; and he made five talents more. 17 So also, he who had the two talents made two talents more. 18 But he who had received the one talent went and dug in the ground and hid his master’s money. 19 Now after a long time the master of those servants came and settled accounts with them. 20 And he who had received the five talents came forward, bringing five talents more, saying, ‘Master, you delivered to me five talents; here I have made five talents more.’ 21 His master said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant; you have been faithful over a little, I will set you over much; enter into the joy of your master.’ 22 And he also who had the two talents came forward, saying, ‘Master, you delivered to me two talents; here I have made two talents more.’ 23 His master said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant; you have been faithful over a little, I will set you over much; enter into the joy of your master.’ 24 He also who had received the one talent came forward, saying, ‘Master, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you did not sow, and gathering where you did not winnow; 25 so I was afraid, and I went and hid your talent in the ground. Here you have what is yours.’ 26 But his master answered him, '**You wicked and slothful servant! **. . . .30 And cast the worthless servant into the outer darkness; there men will weep and gnash their teeth.'

And for those that are entrusted with talents but draw no interest, for those who bear no fruit, for those who do not maintain oil in their lamps, they are tossed out into the night where there is wailing and gnashing of teeth. . . .

JOHN 15:1-6 1 "I am the true vine, and my Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch of mine that bears no fruit, he takes away, and every branch that does bear fruit he prunes, that it may bear more fruit. 3 You are already made clean by the word which I have spoken to you. 4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit by itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in me. 5 I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in me, and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing. 6 If a man does not abide in me, he is cast forth as a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire and burned.

I hope these verses are what you wanted(?).

God bless.

Cathoholic

 

[adf417]

But those sown on rich soil are the ones who hear the word and accept it and bear fruit thirty and sixty and a hundredfold.

…the last few words in today’s gospel reading from Mk 4… just one more piece of scripture to add.

Peace!!!

 

[Cathoholic]

Justin61790.

Although THIS thread has to do with Shaolen and his personal discussion with his dad and brother, there is more on this subject (albeit not concerning the OP personal discussion so they are not entirely parallel) over here too if interested.

 

[Justin61790]

Thank you very much, Cathoholic. I really appreciate you taking the time to type all that up and for providing those links.

 

[Cathoholic]

You’re welcome Justin 61790.