Sola Fide

[tom25]

I apologize if this sounds a little like me griping, but I just want to address something has been bugging me. A couple of time listening to Catholic radio and reading some of the sources, the doctrine of Sola Fide is rebuked in a pretty casual manner of the short handed description given by some (good intentioned though still wrong) minimalist evangelicals. And I would like to address that.

1. The doctrine of Sola Fide does not mean I merely acknowledge an idea, like Jesus died for my sins, end of discussion. Short-handedly; faith involves, knowledge, ascent (and ascent, I mean as in “I ascent that 2+2=4.” I don’t choose to believe it equals 4, I know that it is 4), and a personal trust or belief. Faith involves all 3 of theses in conjunction.
2. “It is not enough to believe that Christ was born, suffered, was raised again, unless we add also this article, which is the purpose of the history,: the forgiveness of sins” (Apology of the Augsburg Confession. Article 4.)
3. By Sola Fide, no right minded Christian actively condemns good works. Good works are desired.
   Ephesians 2:8-10 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

To sum up, 1) Protestants like, encourage, and desire good works, we hold that faith is what saves though. Good works are the response of the Spirit working in us though.
and 2) I am having a bit of a busy morning, but I really wanted to address this. So sorry if I come across being a little short. That is not my intent.

 

[Hail_Linus]

If I understand you correctly, you are claiming that Good Works come as a result of being Save by Faith Alone. In other words, after one is “Saved” the Holy Spirit will work through you.

Doesn’t this mean that if the Holy Spirit spirit is not responding and producing “Good Works” then you are not really “Saved.” This could mean that if the spirit is not responding to the Person who believes he is save by faith alone, then that person is not really saved. That would mean he is not saved by faith alone because he can never be sure he has true faith.

You are not kidding when you say you have an RC slant.

 

[KathleenGee]

Catholics have always believed that it is the grace of faith in Christ that saves us, that Jesus Christ is the Atonement at Mass, the only pleasing sacrifice to the Father.

To be Church is to be Social.

 

[Swiss_Guy]

But isn’t the Holy Spirit working in you to produce the faith that you have? :yup:

And the Holy Spirit also works in you to produce the works.

If you don’t have the works you can’t be saved.

Therefore, salvation is by grace alone through faith and works (or faith working in love).

 

[Hail_Linus]

But isn’t the Holy Spirit working in you to produce the faith that you have? :yup:

And the Holy Spirit also works in you to produce the works.

If you don’t have the works you can’t be saved.

Therefore, salvation is by grace alone through faith and works (or faith working in love).

NonCatholics only have the Holy Spirit. Catholics also have the Son in the Eucharist which makes our “Good Works” supernatural.

 

[patricius79]

ITo sum up, 1) Protestants like, encourage, and desire good works, we hold that faith is what saves though. Good works are the response of the Spirit working in us though.
and 2) I am having a bit of a busy morning, but I really wanted to address this. So sorry if I come across being a little short. That is not my intent.

I know that Scripture says we are “saved through sanctification”. and I don’t see how one can separate their faith from their service to the poor and say that they are saved by faith alone and not their love of the poor

I know that Luther commented on how the “faith alone” idea was leading to great carelessness toward the poor and to immorality

 

[Bluegoat]

If I understand you correctly, you are claiming that Good Works come as a result of being Save by Faith Alone. In other words, after one is “Saved” the Holy Spirit will work through you.

Doesn’t this mean that if the Holy Spirit spirit is not responding and producing “Good Works” then you are not really “Saved.” This could mean that if the spirit is not responding to the Person who believes he is save by faith alone, then that person is not really saved. That would mean he is not saved by faith alone because he can never be sure he has true faith.

You are not kidding when you say you have an RC slant.

That would be good Lutheran doctrine, yes. Not, in fact, a Catholic version of Lutheranism.

 

[JonNC]

I apologize if this sounds a little like me griping, but I just want to address something has been bugging me. A couple of time listening to Catholic radio and reading some of the sources, the doctrine of Sola Fide is rebuked in a pretty casual manner of the short handed description given by some (good intentioned though still wrong) minimalist evangelicals. And I would like to address that.

1. The doctrine of Sola Fide does not mean I merely acknowledge an idea, like Jesus died for my sins, end of discussion. Short-handedly; faith involves, knowledge, ascent (and ascent, I mean as in “I ascent that 2+2=4.” I don’t choose to believe it equals 4, I know that it is 4), and a personal trust or belief. Faith involves all 3 of theses in conjunction.
2. “It is not enough to believe that Christ was born, suffered, was raised again, unless we add also this article, which is the purpose of the history,: the forgiveness of sins” (Apology of the Augsburg Confession. Article 4.)
3. By Sola Fide, no right minded Christian actively condemns good works. **Good works are desired. **Ephesians 2:8-10 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

To sum up, 1) Protestants like, encourage, and desire good works, we hold that faith is what saves though. Good works are the response of the Spirit working in us though.
and 2) I am having a bit of a busy morning, but I really wanted to address this. So sorry if I come across being a little short. That is not my intent.

Hi Tom, and welcome to CAF,
I just want to respond to one segment of your OP, that being the part I’ve highlighted regarding good works being desired, encouraged, etc. The confessions, particularly the Epitome of the Formula of Concord uses far stronger language, that being “necessity”. I think it is safe to safe that, while it is true that works do not save, good works are required, not merely desired.

1. We believe, teach, and confess also that all men, but those especially who are born again and renewed by the Holy Ghost, are bound to do good works.

9] 4. In this sense the words necessary, shall, and must are employed correctly and in a Christian manner also with respect to the regenerate, and in no way are contrary to the form of sound words and speech.

10] 5. Nevertheless, by the words mentioned, necessitas, necessarium, necessity and necessary, if they be employed concerning the regenerate, not coercion, but only due obedience is to be understood, which the truly believing, so far as they are regenerate, render not from coercion or the driving of the Law, but from a voluntary spirit; because they are no more under the Law, but under grace, Rom. 6:14; 7:6; 8:14.

11] 6. Accordingly, we also believe, teach, and confess that when it is said: The regenerate do good works from a free spirit, **this is not to be understood as though it is at the option of the regenerate man to do or to forbear doing good when he wishes, and that he can nevertheless retain faith if he intentionally perseveres in sins. **

“Bound” here means more than destined, it means required.

The bolded part in 6 makes clear that good works are not optional.

Jon

 

[ConsciousCoward]

To be saved is to take on a life of discipleship, not out of requirement (if I do this and this then God will save me) but out of gratitude. That’s what sola fide is about. It isn’t saying that good works are irrelevant, but that we aren’t saved by our own hand. Faith and works cannot be separated because they are intrinsically tied together; where there is faith, works will follow.

To say that works lead to salvation is incredibly illogical. We are saved because of God’s grace, and by having faith we accept it. We haven’t earned it simply because we can’t. There are no actions that we can take that obligate God to save us simply because, and here’s why I say it’s illogical, if God was obligated to respond in a specific way to specific actions, He would be under our control, at least to an extent.

However, as I said, faith and works are tied together. If we have faith, we will seek discipleship and discipline as a result, which will in turn lead to good works.

I hope I didn’t confuse people. I’m not feeling particularly eloquent today, which is unfortunate because it makes it hard to voice my ideas. Anyway, I hope this contribution was at least a little helpful.

 

[Hail_Linus]

To say that works lead to salvation is incredibly illogical.

We have some major differences among us but I don’t think any Christian believes works lead to Salvation.

Catholics do not believe we earn Salvation through good works. However, we do believe we can lose our Salvation. By not behaving like Christians we reject God and we can lose our salvation.

As a Catholic I don’t simply say I have been saved. As a Catholic I believe I have been saved, I am being saved, and I will be saved. In other words, we wouldn’t say lack of good works show a person was never really saved. We would say the saved person has lost his salvation by what he has done or failed to do and therefore must repent.

 

[Bluegoat]

We have some major differences among us but I don’t think any Christian believes works lead to Salvation.

Catholics do not believe we earn Salvation through good works. However, we do believe we can lose our Salvation. By not behaving like Christians we reject God and we can lose our salvation.

As a Catholic I don’t simply say I have been saved. As a Catholic I believe I have been saved, I am being saved, and I will be saved. In other words, we wouldn’t say lack of good works show a person was never really saved. We would say the saved person has lost his salvation by what he has done or failed to do and therefore must repent.

In general, I would say that the faith/works divide is not really a big one between Catholics and Lutherans, and many other Protestants. As far as the average lay-person, they probably believe much the same thing, they simply express it differently. Where you might see the greatest difference would be around the issue of temporal punishment for sin, penances, and what Protestants call sanctification. But even then I don’t think it is the gulf that many believe it is on either side.

 

[ltwin]

We have some major differences among us but I don’t think any Christian believes works lead to Salvation.

Catholics do not believe we earn Salvation through good works. However, we do believe we can lose our Salvation. By not behaving like Christians we reject God and we can lose our salvation.

As a Protestant who believes in free will, I don’t disagree and most Protestants wouldn’t disagree either with the statement that you can lose salvation, unless they are in the OSAS camp. However, not behaving like a Christian (not bearing fruit) is a symptom of a much greater problem - the loss of faith. If we love Jesus, we will want to lover others and do good works. We cannot love Him if we have no faith in Him, and that is the cause of lack of good works. If you have faith, you will do good works. If you lose your faith or never had it to begin with, then you will not bear fruit.

As a Catholic I don’t simply say I have been saved. As a Catholic I believe I have been saved, I am being saved, and I will be saved. In other words, we wouldn’t say lack of good works show a person was never really saved. We would say the saved person has lost his salvation by what he has done or failed to do and therefore must repent.

We agree, with the caveat I mentioned above. There is an initial side to salvation which is full and complete based on the finished work of Christ on the cross. But sanctification is a progressive process and one that is never finished in this life. It is a journey and in a very real sense a relationship with Christ. As Christians, it is not enough for us to have a one time experience where we asked Jesus to forgive us of our sins and become Lord and Savior of our lives. The Christian life requires a continual renewal and identification with the fact that it is by Christ’s Atonement that we are saved, not ourselves but His grace. As God draws near to us and we draw away from sin, we grow in our love and knowledge of Him and this is reflected in what we do. A true Christian cannot help but do good things. It is a natural consequence of the overflowing love that God has poured out into the individual’s life. The true Christian has to share that love and wants to share that love.

 

[patricius79]

To be saved is to take on a life of discipleship, not out of requirement (if I do this and this then God will save me) but out of gratitude. That’s what sola fide is about.** It isn’t saying that good works are irrelevant, but that we aren’t saved by our own hand.** Faith and works cannot be separated because they are intrinsically tied together; where there is faith, works will follow.
.

I agree, Conscious. Peace to you

Catholics believe that there is nothing we can do of ourselves to become God’s chldren.

that’s why we condemn even semi-Pelagianism

so I don’t understand why someone would disagree with the Biblical Church’s teaching that we are “not justifies by faith alone” James 2:24

*Romans 2:

By your stubbornness and impenitent heart, you are storing up wrath for yourself for the day of wrath and revelation of the just judgment of God,
6
**who will repay everyone according to his works: 3
7
eternal life to those who seek glory, honor, and immortality through perseverance in good works, **8
but wrath and fury to those who selfishly disobey the truth and obey wickedness.
9
Yes, affliction and distress will come upon every human being who does evil, Jew first and then Greek.
10
But there will be glory, honor, and peace for everyone who does good, Jew first and then Greek.
11
4 There is no partiality with God.
12
5 All who sin outside the law will also perish without reference to it, and all who sin under the law will be judged in accordance with it.
13
For it is not those who hear the law who are just in the sight of God; rather, those who observe the law will be justified.
14
For when the Gentiles who do not have the law by nature observe the prescriptions of the law, they are a law for themselves even though they do not have the law.
15
They show that the demands of the law are written in their hearts, 6 while their conscience also bears witness and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even defend them
16
on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge people’s hidden works through Christ Jesus. *

 

[Dan_Daly]

“faith alone” appears once in Scripture.

James 2:24.

24Do you see that by works a man is justified; and not by faith only?

Martin Luther added the word “alone” to Romans 3:28. (In addition to removing several books and parts of other books from the Bible).

So Sola Fide does not jive with Sola Scriptura. Of course the Bible doesn’t jive with Sola Scriptura either because it didn’t appear on its own- the canon was decided upon by the Church (or by Martin Luther depending on which version of the Bible you are reading). If belief in the Bible alone is the defining charecteristic of Christians…what were all those Christians who lived before there was a Bible doing?

Protestantism is not hard to refute on an intellectual level. What it has going for it is the strong emotional pull it has on people. Everybody gets to be their own Pope.

Pax

 

[tom25]

Dan Daly, I must say, your reasoning sounds fallacious.
I don’t say that the papacy is unbiblical because the bible doesn’t say that Pete and his successors are to be known as Pope. Faith alone doctrine doesn’t stand because the bible says, “your are saved by faith ALONE.” When faith is brought up, faith on it own is how we recieve grace.

Ephesian 2:8
For by grace are ye** saved through faith**; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God

Luke 18:42 And Jesus said unto him, Receive thy sight: **thy faith hath saved **thee.

Luke 5:20 And when he saw their faith, he said unto him, Man,** thy sins are forgiven **thee.

Romans 5:1-2 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: By whom also we have** access by faith into this grace **wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

As many reformers often put it, saving faith isn’t alone. It does stuff.

As far as Romans 3:28 goes, how is “alone” not a logical extension of it?
KJV “Therefore we conclude that a man is** justified by faith without **the deeds of the law.”
Douay-Rheims “For we account a man to be **justified by faith, without **the works of the law”
American Standard “We reckon therefore that a man is **justified by faith apart from **the works of the law”

 

[Dan_Daly]

As far as Romans 3:28 goes, how is “alone” not a logical extension of it?

What gives a man license to add what he might consider a “logical extension” to the divenly inspired Word of God?

More to your point, it’s not logical because it’s not what God says.

You make oatmeal with water. That’s a true statement. You can not make oatmeal without water. However, you don’t make oatmeal with water ALONE. You need oats (and heat, unless you like cold gritty oatmeal)

You need faith for salvation. You can not be saved without faith. You are not saved by faith alone.

I hope that explains myself a bit better. Have a great day and God Bless.

Pax.

 

[JonNC]

=Dan Daly;8221608]“faith alone” appears once in Scripture.

James 2:24.

Martin Luther added the word “alone” to Romans 3:28. (In addition to removing several books and parts of other books from the Bible).

It could be said that Luther “added” thousands of words to the Bible - all of them German.
He used “allein” because it was necessary to express the meaning of the text in German. His was a translation, and languages often do not translate precisely word for word. THis is evident by the fact that “alone” does not appear in any English translation that I am aware of. If the use of “alone” was an attempt by Luther to change the meaning, then every Lutheran English Bible would still have “alone” in Romans 3:28.

Additionally, Luther did not remove any books from the Bible. His 1534 translation included 74 books, including the deuterocanon and the Prayer of Manassess. What he did do was organize the books by putting the disputed (disputed long before Luther) books into an appendix, reflecting the disputed nature of the books.

So Sola Fide does not jive with Sola Scriptura. Of course the Bible doesn’t jive with Sola Scriptura either because it didn’t appear on its own- the canon was decided upon by the Church (or by Martin Luther depending on which version of the Bible you are reading). If belief in the Bible alone is the defining charecteristic of Christians…what were all those Christians who lived before there was a Bible doing?

They were, first, living in the apostolic era when the writers were either still alive or their students were. Afterwards, they were following the unified Church (no schismatic dispute as to what Tradition said at that time), and though the apostolic writings were not organized until later, that doesn’t mean they didn’t exist.

The issue of the canon is not so simplistic as “Luther removed books”, or “Rome added books”.

Protestantism is not hard to refute on an intellectual level. What it has going for it is the strong emotional pull it has on people. Everybody gets to be their own Pope.

That may be true for some, but for Lutherans, we are bound in doctrine to scripture, the Lutheran confessions, the early creeds and councils. As a Lutheran, I have no more privilege to personally interpret regarding doctrine than you do.

Certainly, there is only one pope.

Jon

 

[JonNC]

=Dan Daly;8223271]What gives a man license to add what he might consider a “logical extension” to the divenly inspired Word of God?

If one takes away the ability of a translator to translate, as you here are suggesting, then we would all be reading the Vulgate.

More to your point, it’s not logical because it’s not what God says.

Of course it is.

You make oatmeal with water. That’s a true statement. You can not make oatmeal without water. However, you don’t make oatmeal with water ALONE. You need oats (and heat, unless you like cold gritty oatmeal)

This analogy is clever, but it doesn’t reflect what sola fide says.

You need faith for salvation. You can not be saved without faith. You are not saved by faith alone.

Sola fide expresses that fact that, by Grace alone, through faith in Christ, we are justified. We access justification by faith alone, and not by works. But faith is never without works. That faith which justifies is an active faith, a Galatians 5:6 faith - a faith that works through love.

I hope that explains myself a bit better. Have a great day and God Bless.

Me too. I don’t believe our (Catholic and Lutheran) understandings of justification are much different.

Pax.

And also with you.
Jon

 

[Dan_Daly]

I don’t think we are that far apart either. The difference is largely in our choice of words, but I also believe that words are very important. If you say faith is never without works, then how can you be saved by faith alone- since faith is never alone, it’s always with works? The writers of the Bible saw faith and works as two different things, which is why they described them that way. If faith is a belief in God, then Satan has faith.

Translation of the scriptures is fine (although I do wish I knew the original languages), as long as it is done PROPERLY. Translation and editing are too different things.

I have great hope for the Lutherans. There really are many who truly are more Catholic then many Catholics. It’s nice to “meet” you and pray you find your way home to the One, Holy, Catholic, Apostolic Church.

Pax.

 

[JonNC]

=Dan Daly;8223551]I don’t think we are that far apart either. The difference is largely in our choice of words, but I also believe that words are very important. If you say faith is never without works, then how can you be saved by faith alone- since faith is never alone, it’s always with works?

Because, by grace, it is through faith that we access justification. Following, the regenerate participate in good works, as is the command and call of Christ. Good works, which are to benefit our fellow man, do not justify, but are the good fruits which are evidence of faith.

The writers of the Bible saw faith and works as two different things, which is why they described them that way. If faith is a belief in God, then Satan has faith.

Yes, and that is why when we say faith alone, we are speaking, not of an intellectual belief, but an active faith. Faith and works are two different things, but for the regenerate, good works follow faith, indeed are the result of faith, if it is an active, saving faith.

Translation of the scriptures is fine (although I do wish I knew the original languages), as long as it is done PROPERLY. Translation and editing are too different things.

Agreed. Luther did not edit, in my view, at least not in the sense of altering the meaning and intent of Paul’s words.

I have great hope for the Lutherans. There really are many who truly are more Catholic then many Catholics. It’s nice to “meet” you and pray you find your way home to the One, Holy, Catholic, Apostolic Church.

My hope and prayer is that reconciliation between our communions happens soon, leading to an end of the Reformation, and a healing of the wounds of division of the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church. I pray for the day when Lutherans and Catholics can share His Supper at each others altars.

Pax.

And also with you.

Jon