Sola Fide

[JB_Brother_4446]

I know I’m gonna get hate from my separated brethren on this one.

Although Scripture says that those who are righteous live by faith, they do not say live by “faith alone.”

 

[ltwin]

I know I’m gonna get hate from my separated brethren on this one.

Although Scripture says that those who are righteous live by faith, they do not say live by “faith alone.”

Well, the historic Protestant position has always been ““We are justified by faith alone but not by a faith that is alone.” The point being that true faith results in both justification and sanctification with corresponding good works.

 

[adamhovey1988]

I know I’m gonna get hate from my separated brethren on this one.

Although Scripture says that those who are righteous live by faith, they do not say live by “faith alone.”

I’d have to agree to some extent. Having five different “alones” seems down right weird to me. That said, I have still met many wonderful Protestants, even if I do find their theology lacking (always add the disclaimer)

 

[Petaro]

Everyone’s path to God is not always the same. If these good men believe that faith alone saves them but continue to show the light that shines amongst men in their faith in Christ then the results seem to be the same in the salvation of the Cross. We cannot look into the hearts of others. I am too busy walking that hard road myself to question the theology of good men I meet along the same path.

 

[John_Martin]

I know I’m gonna get hate from my separated brethren on this one.

Although Scripture says that those who are righteous live by faith, they do not say live by “faith alone.”

We are justified by faith alone, and not by works (alone).
The trouble is not the word “alone” but the trouble is the correct understanding of “justification” and “works”.
We all here know that we will not inherit eternal life without doing the works of love (agape, charity), loving God from our whole heart in all our soul and in all our strength and in all our mind and loving our neighbor as ourselves as Jesus told the Lawyer in Luke 10, “Do this and you will live”. And we will not have an inheritance in the Kingdom of our Lord if we do the works of vice listed by Paul in several places like Ephesians 5.

So, we are justified by faith alone, and we receive our inheritance in our operating according to Virtue, and Virtue is infused in us with Grace, by the presence of the Holy Spirit filling us like the light infuses the atmosphere, so that we can see what is true and good and love it, and therefore do it. We must do it as the true manifestation of what we are in our union with God in Christ,

Justifying oneself by works means accumulating a list of what you yourself consider “enough” and using that as an argument with God to “let you in”, “You have to let me in because I did this, this, and that, and because I have possession of other things like my circumcision, genealogy, documentation.” It is the argument of someone who does not want to operate, but instead wants to do nothing but take it easy, because he should already have the price of admission…

Abraham operated when he believed God - he set out for Hebron, doing the works that obtain the inheritance of the promise. So his “justification” was not an argument with God to let him have a new name and the birth of Isaac where he was in Haran. And he did not argue with God in Hebron, that now he should pay him what was owed for moving. What did Abraham do? He asked God, “Where is your promise? Where is the inheritance? I can’t see it.” Then the Lord asked him to do some more work, to bring a sacrifice for a covenant operation. Abraham did not say, “I am already justified by coming here, so I do not need to do this sacrifice.” No, Abraham was justified, so he operated as the Lord’s friend and brought the animals and offered them as asked, because the Lord was working to bring him into his inheritance.

Justification means being made just, being a just person whose doings are just, being a good person whose doings are good, being a righteous person whose doings are righteous.

Doing things that are good do not make a person into a good person, therefore we are not made a good person by having a cache of works, we are not justified by works.
However, Faith (as a virtue, not the actions of Faith, but Faith itself) is something put into us when we were baptized, intensified when we were confirmed and when we receive absolution - it is that light shining in our souls like the sunlight infuses the air outside, so that we can see what is from God, so that we recognize it is Good, and so that we Love it and therefore make it real in the world. This is the Faith, the Virtue, that makes us Good People, the People of God, the People in the world but not of the world. This is the Faith, the infused Virtue, the Light shining in our souls, that justifies us, that makes us good and makes our works good, which God put in us when we were baptized, by himself breathing himself into us.

And with this light shining in us, we recognize and know that we are children of God, Sons of the Most High. We recognize that we are justified in claiming “we are this Holy People”, and we know that it is this light (Faith) illuminating our souls that enabled us to see we are his and he is ours. And so we take on the journey to Hebron, no, to the new inheritance of the Kingdom of Christ that awaits us: loving God and our neighbor is the path that gets us there. Jesus was totally serious when he said, “Do this and you will live”; no other path.

 

[JB_Brother_4446]

We are justified by faith alone, and not by works (alone).
The trouble is not the word “alone” but the trouble is the correct understanding of “justification” and “works”.
We all here know that we will not inherit eternal life without doing the works of love (agape, charity), loving God from our whole heart in all our soul and in all our strength and in all our mind and loving our neighbor as ourselves as Jesus told the Lawyer in Luke 10, “Do this and you will live”. And we will not have an inheritance in the Kingdom of our Lord if we do the works of vice listed by Paul in several places like Ephesians 5.

So, we are justified by faith alone, and we receive our inheritance in our operating according to Virtue, and Virtue is infused in us with Grace, by the presence of the Holy Spirit filling us like the light infuses the atmosphere, so that we can see what is true and good and love it, and therefore do it. We must do it as the true manifestation of what we are in our union with God in Christ,

Justifying oneself by works means accumulating a list of what you yourself consider “enough” and using that as an argument with God to “let you in”, “You have to let me in because I did this, this, and that, and because I have possession of other things like my circumcision, genealogy, documentation.” It is the argument of someone who does not want to operate, but instead wants to do nothing but take it easy, because he should already have the price of admission…

Abraham operated when he believed God - he set out for Hebron, doing the works that obtain the inheritance of the promise. So his “justification” was not an argument with God to let him have a new name and the birth of Isaac where he was in Haran. And he did not argue with God in Hebron, that now he should pay him what was owed for moving. What did Abraham do? He asked God, “Where is your promise? Where is the inheritance? I can’t see it.” Then the Lord asked him to do some more work, to bring a sacrifice for a covenant operation. Abraham did not say, “I am already justified by coming here, so I do not need to do this sacrifice.” No, Abraham was justified, so he operated as the Lord’s friend and brought the animals and offered them as asked, because the Lord was working to bring him into his inheritance.

Justification means being made just, being a just person whose doings are just, being a good person whose doings are good, being a righteous person whose doings are righteous.

Doing things that are good do not make a person into a good person, therefore we are not made a good person by having a cache of works, we are not justified by works.
However, Faith (as a virtue, not the actions of Faith, but Faith itself) is something put into us when we were baptized, intensified when we were confirmed and when we receive absolution - it is that light shining in our souls like the sunlight infuses the air outside, so that we can see what is from God, so that we recognize it is Good, and so that we Love it and therefore make it real in the world. This is the Faith, the Virtue, that makes us Good People, the People of God, the People in the world but not of the world. This is the Faith, the infused Virtue, the Light shining in our souls, that justifies us, that makes us good and makes our works good, which God put in us when we were baptized, by himself breathing himself into us.

And with this light shining in us, we recognize and know that we are children of God, Sons of the Most High. We recognize that we are justified in claiming “we are this Holy People”, and we know that it is this light (Faith) illuminating our souls that enabled us to see we are his and he is ours. And so we take on the journey to Hebron, no, to the new inheritance of the Kingdom of Christ that awaits us: loving God and our neighbor is the path that gets us there. Jesus was totally serious when he said, “Do this and you will live”; no other path.

Indeed faith working through love is never alone.

 

[Hatikvah]

What I don’t like is that it can get confusing in the language!

So I have seen it to be like this. For the Protestant, especially for Luther himself, works are needed to obtain salvation. However, they do not come of themselves through our own efforts. We just believe that the “formula” (simplified) is switched:

Protestants: Faith = Works + Justification

Catholics: Faith + Works = Justification

So it should not be that dividing of an issue. By “faith,” Luther likely meant faithfulness, and the works are implicitly included.

An early Christian understanding is here, and the author is often thought to be Pope St. Clement’s brother (Shepherd of Hermas, c.95 AD; Book 1, Vision 2, Chapter 2):

… and forgiveness will be granted to all the saints who have sinned even to the present day, if they repent with all their heart [works], and drive all doubts from their minds [faith; cf. Heb. 1:1].

It is primarily language. Remember the context in which Luther was writing – indulgences were abused by some local clergy, including priests and bishops. They earned money, stating that sins would be forgiven not by God, but by the Church if they’d purchase them (which people did: simony). Surely, many people were confused by “what it took” to obtain salvation, so being faithful just makes sense.

That’s not the actual understanding of indulgences today, but many laypeople in Luther’s day wouldn’t be all that educated in matters of faith. He was also writing at a different day, and he struggled for a long time on simply finding the way to translate “righteous” from Latin to German.

 

[Cyberseeker]

Well, the historic Protestant position has always been ““We are justified by faith alone but not by a faith that is alone.” The point being that true faith results in both justification and sanctification with corresponding good works.

Are any of the ‘non-separated’ brethren going to comment on this reply?

 

[JB_Brother_4446]

Well, the historic Protestant position has always been ““We are justified by faith alone but not by a faith that is alone.” The point being that true faith results in both justification and sanctification with corresponding good works.

You most of all need love. What is the point of having total faith in God but not loving God?

 

[JB_Brother_4446]

Are any of the ‘non-separated’ brethren going to comment on this reply?

I just did.

 

[Hatikvah]

I need to correct myself. In the quote from the Shepherd of Hermas, in the brackets, the second biblical citation should be Hebrews 11:1, not 1:1.

You most of all need love. What is the point of having total faith in God but not loving God?

Love is needed. It should be the key virtue in the life of the Christian! Saint Augustine says in his On Christian Doctrine, Book I, Chapter XXXIX (39):

Hence “there remain,” [St. Paul] says," faith, hope, and charity, these three: but the greatest of these is charity." [Quoting 1 Corinthians 13:13]. And when anyone shall reach the eternal, two of these having fallen away, charity will remain certain and more vigorous.

He also comments in the same work and book, Chapter XXXVIII (38):

But the vision we shall see will replace faith, and that blessedness to which we are to come will replace hope; and when these things are falling away, charity will be increased even more. If we have love in faith [with] what we have not seen, how much more will we love it when we begin to see it?

And so, it follows that faith comes before love, bringing love about (especially, love for God, which is complete in the Beatific Vision here).

 

[Cyberseeker]

I just did.

Love, works, faith: the true Christian has got 'em all.

So, when we get to heaven, don’t bust my harp, coz that wouldn’t be nice. :harp:

 

[ltwin]

You most of all need love. What is the point of having total faith in God but not loving God?

Yeah, OK. As the great American revivalist Jonathan Edwards said, “Love is the main thing in saving faith, the life and power of it, by which it produces its great effects.” Believing in Christ, trusting in Christ, receiving Christ, having faith in Christ, or however you want to phrase it is over and over again connected and equated to loving Christ in the Scriptures. Love for God is automatically included in justifying faith because justifying faith is never simply mental assent to propositional truth. Like faith, love is a gift “because God’s love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit who has been given to us” (Romans 5:5).

 

[catholic1seeks]

So, we are justified by faith alone, and we receive our inheritance in our operating according to Virtue, and Virtue is infused in us with Grace, by the presence of the Holy Spirit filling us like the light infuses the atmosphere, so that we can see what is true and good and love it, and therefore do it. We must do it as the true manifestation of what we are in our union with God in Christ,

Justifying oneself by works means accumulating a list of what you yourself consider “enough” and using that as an argument with God to “let you in”, “You have to let me in because I did this, this, and that, and because I have possession of other things like my circumcision, genealogy, documentation.” It is the argument of someone who does not want to operate, but instead wants to do nothing but take it easy, because he should already have the price of admission…

Of course there is some sense we can say we are “justified by works” because the Bible in fact says this in James 2. And we know he is speaking of justification before God (1) due to the examples he uses and (2) the fact that he seems to be clarifying the Pauline doctrine.

 

[catholic1seeks]

Intellectual belief alone does not save anyone. But intellectual belief precisely is what the traditional Catholic understanding of the virtue of* faith* is. It is only when this intellectual faith is paired with love and hope that an authentic, saving faith is present. The Bible has many uses of the word faith, and so naturally the church in developing its understanding had to choose a certain definition.

The confusion exists when Christians use the same words to mean different things. If someone uses faith to include the hope in Christ’s promises and the ability to supernaturally* love* God, then they are close to the Catholic understanding that we are saved by a faith working in love, or* formed* faith.

Terms and their meanings are important because many Protestants and the Catholic Church do not have the same understanding of the term justification. The former usually prefer an external “declaration” that effects no interior transformation or likeness to God while the latter understands an inner sanctification and participating of the “divine nature” whereby God truly infuses his grace into the Christian. After all, Martin Luther described his doctrine of justification as snow-covered poop: We only appear to God as righteous but are not actually transformed as such.

And this makes all the difference when understanding the role of works. No, the Catholic Church does not teach that one has to do a certain number of works to please God. We do not approach God will all our works and say “look how good I am.” Catholicism is totally grace-centered, arguably more than Protestantism, for Catholicism considers grace as actually transforming the soul. It is this transformation and participating in Christ that enable us to cooperate with God so as to grow in holiness. It is in this sense that works contribute to justification–to the sanctification of the person. This is how James could say “You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.” James was speaking of the intellectual definition of faith, as Catholics often do, as well as the understanding of progressive justification (growth in holiness).

There are other related concepts that affect the overall picture of justification and salvation. Many Protestants accept a notion of fallen humanity that is contrary to the Catholic and (Eastern) Orthodox perspective. Where as the Protestant founders saw human nature as totally depraved or utterly changed for the worse, Catholics and other traditional Christians see Adam’s sin as wounding the exalted human nature God meant for humanity to experience. Our will is not destroyed, and we are truly able to do good, by God’s grace. I believe it was Martin Luther who said that even our good works are sins.

 

[DebChris]

We are saved by grace. We respond in faith to God’s grace. Dietrich Boenhoefer, in his book The Cost of Discipleship warns against what he calls “cheap grace.” We cheapen the sacrifice of the cross when we merely state in words that we accept that we are saved, but do not repent and make no effort at conversion. In other words, we remain in our sins. We continue life as it was.
St. James in his epistle explicitly states that faith without works is dead. “I will show you the faith that underlies my works.”
It is true that often when Jesus healed somebody He said, “Your faith has saved you.” As shown with the man who was blind from birth, there is a continued growth. We are not called to remain where we were.
Jesus told Nicodemus that a man must be born again. Who is born, but a child. A child continues to grow physically. In the same way, we are called to grow spiritually. We are called to “take up our cross and follow” Christ. Didn’t He say that we would do the works that He did and greater besides? The only way we can do those works is by the power of the Holy Spirit working in our lives.

 

[JB_Brother_4446]

Most of my reason for rejecting sola fide comes from this passage:

Matthew 25: 31 - 46

31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, 36 I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.’ 37 Then the righteous will answer him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? 38 And when did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? 39 And when did we see you sick or in prison and visit you?’ 40 And the King will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers,[a] you did it to me.’

41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’ 44 Then they also will answer, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to you?’ 45 Then he will answer them, saying, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ 46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

In the passage, Jesus does not judge based on faith or their affiliation with a religious group, He judges based on whether one helps the poor.

 

[Hatikvah]

Most of my reason for rejecting sola fide comes from this passage… In the passage, Jesus does not judge based on faith or their affiliation with a religious group, He judges based on whether one helps the poor.

Well, I’m not trying to argue/debate/vilify/whatever, but there are two things that fit the puzzle together. Sola fide and the Catholic view are not necessarily contradictory when we base things off of the Bible, they are just two separate ways to view them. There is no debate, people just make one where there doesn’t need to be one.

I’ll quote an excerpt from what you quoted:

Then they also will answer, saying, “Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?” Then He will answer them, saying, “Truly, I say to you, as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.” (Matthew 25:44-45, ESV)

If we envision the poor as Jesus, for Jesus identifies Himself with the poor and disenfranchised often, and He is even the suffering servant in the Book of Isaiah. The poor should be an extension of Jesus, and our works as an extension of His; we are not working for something through ourselves, but for God’s will and for the coming Kingdom.

If we enjoin ourselves to Christ, we are furthering Him, not ourselves (though, let’s face it, it’s great that we can have a part in His plan and in His will).

“Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes in Me will also do the works that I do; and greater works than these will he do, because I am going to the Father." (John 14:12, ESV)

Jesus’ friends do His works and He will even entrust those sacred duties of charity to us (confide in us):

"You are My friends if you do what I command you. No longer do I call you servants, for the servant does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all that I have heard from my Father I have made known to you. (John 15:14-15, ESV)

See post #7. Again, not an issue. It’s being made into an issue.

 

[JB_Brother_4446]

Well, I’m not trying to argue/debate/vilify/whatever, but there are two things that fit the puzzle together. Sola fide and the Catholic view are not necessarily contradictory when we base things off of the Bible, they are just two separate ways to view them. There is no debate, people just make one where there doesn’t need to be one.

I’ll quote an excerpt from what you quoted:

If we envision the poor as Jesus, for Jesus identifies Himself with the poor and disenfranchised often, and He is even the suffering servant in the Book of Isaiah. The poor should be an extension of Jesus, and our works as an extension of His; we are not working for something through ourselves, but for God’s will and for the coming Kingdom.

If we enjoin ourselves to Christ, we are furthering Him, not ourselves (though, let’s face it, it’s great that we can have a part in His plan and in His will).

Jesus’ friends do His works and He will even entrust those sacred duties of charity to us (confide in us):

"You are My friends if you do what I command you. No longer do I call you servants, for the servant does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all that I have heard from my Father I have made known to you. (John 15:14-15, ESV)

See post #7. Again, not an issue. It’s being made into an issue.

And those on the right were not necessarily believers in Jesus, they didn’t even know Him!

 

[DebChris]

And those on the right were not necessarily believers in Jesus, they didn’t even know Him!

Which allows for the Baptism of Desire.
Scripture tells us Jesus is “the Way, the Truth, and the Light” and nobody comes to the Son unless the “Father draws him.” What we do not know is the many ways in which the Father has of drawing an individual to the Son.
Nowhere does Scripture say that a person has to be literate.