Sola Fides

[Pastor_Robert]

I was listening to your radio broadcast this morning with interest. The issue of sola fides was introduced and I believe poorly answered in terms of the epistle of James.

It is vital to understand that James is addressing that which is authentic faith, true saving faith which issues forth in good works. He is exposing those who profess faith but who manifest no fruit or ‘works’.

Good works according to the Scriptures are those which evidence moral transformation in terms of character, the work of the Spirit changing the sinner into conformity to the likeness of Christ.

A life that is not morally transformed by the Spirit of God is not savingly united to Christ by faith and will face eternal judgment, Romans 8v13.

To profess faith in Christ and to continue unchanged in terms of sin is to be deceived and still under condemnation.

 

[Thal59]

Pastor Robert,

It is nice for a change to hear a Protestant minister say such things. To a Catholic, the more we grow in our faith, and certainly the more we receive Christ through the Eucharist, the more He abides in us. Now if the perfect spirit of Christ comes in contact with the imperfect spirit of a man or woman, then three things may result:

1. No discernable change to either spirit.
2. The imperfect spirit of the man taints or lessens the perfection of Christ.
3. The perfect spirit of Christ ennobles or “improves” the spirit of the man.

I believe in the third scenario as no man can in any way reduce God’s perfect essence; nor could it be possible for the communion of the man and God to result in a maintaining of the status quo.

By nature, we are selfish creatures. We are always more concerned with ourselves more than anyone else, so charity is not normal to fallen man’s nature. But Jesus is the fountain of all love, and love is to suffer and sacrifice for others. We are to love God first, (suffer and sacrifice for Him) and then act the same way to others, just as Christ suffered His passion and sacrificed His life on the cross for all men. If one is truly in the faith, and if one’s faith and devotion to the Lord has been accepted by Him, ( John 2:23-25) then our ennobled spirits, improved by that contact with the Spirit will take on Christ-like qualities; the most evident of which is suffering and sacrificing for others… i.e. good works of charity to others. If we have not charity, or good works, we do not have the Spirit.

Unfortunately, Pastor Robert, Protestantism, a man-made approach to Christianity, does as one would suspect man would do to a sometimes difficult philosophy of self-denial, suffering, and sacrificing. It scrubs it clean of all such notions and makes it a “day off with pay” deal. Examine the more common Protestant practices and beliefs and you will see an obvious attempt to make salvation as easy and inexpensive as possible…

A. The bread and wine are symbolic. (Accept it as the body and blood of Christ and commit to a sacred covenant oath to Him? Too demanding.)
B. Confess one’s sins to a minister of the Lord. (Sorry, that would require a bit of humility.)
C. Charity and good works as an integral part of one’s faith. (That means spending my time, effort, and even money on someone I don’t even know. No thanks.)
D. Penance. (More suffering and sacrificing… doesn’t appeal to me.)
E. Purgatory. (Be responsible and accountable for my actions on earth? Burn away my sins (ouch), endure in patient suffering the full reception of sanctifying grace? (There’s got to be an easier way!)

And then there comes Protestantism. Just have faith, and faith alone, in the Lord’s promises and you will be saved and receive eternal bliss and heavenly reward. Tah-Dah!

No suffering, no sacrificing, no enduring, no humility, no inconvenience, no self-denial = no love, no good works, no faith; which equals no salvation.

Thal59

 

[michaelgazin]

Pastor Robert:

I was listening to your radio broadcast this morning with interest. The issue of sola fides was introduced and I believe poorly answered in terms of the epistle of James.

It is vital to understand that James is addressing that which is authentic faith, true saving faith which issues forth in good works. He is exposing those who profess faith but who manifest no fruit or ‘works’.

Good works according to the Scriptures are those which evidence moral transformation in terms of character, the work of the Spirit changing the sinner into conformity to the likeness of Christ.

A life that is not morally transformed by the Spirit of God is not savingly united to Christ by faith and will face eternal judgment, Romans 8v13.

To profess faith in Christ and to continue unchanged in terms of sin is to be deceived and still under condemnation.

So would you say that a true saving faith and good works are inseperable? Or in other words, someone can not be saved by mere intellectual assent, rather, they need “faith working through love,” Gal. 5:6, or in some translations, “faith made effective by love;” is this something you would affirm or deny?

 

[VociMike]

What I don’t understand is why we’re still having this debate after 500 years. Protestants say “faith alone” but then immediately follow that with “but saving faith is never alone”, while Catholics keep insisting that we don’t believe our works can obligate God to save us. So what, exactly, is the beef? There seems to be no more substance in the dispute than in asking how many angels can fit on the head of a pin. That is, how different is the Protestant understanding, as lived by a faithful and devout Protestant, vs. the Catholic understanding, as lived by a faithful and devout Catholic?

 

[st_felicity]

Pastor Robert:

I was listening to your radio broadcast this morning with interest. The issue of sola fides was introduced and I believe poorly answered in terms of the epistle of James.

It is vital to understand that James is addressing that which is authentic faith, true saving faith which issues forth in good works. He is exposing those who profess faith but who manifest no fruit or ‘works’.

Good works according to the Scriptures are those which evidence moral transformation in terms of character, the work of the Spirit changing the sinner into conformity to the likeness of Christ.
.

Two questions:

Do you believe that one can “lose faith” and therefore lose salvation?

How do you account for sinners that make a radical change and yet after a time (sometimes a very long time) fall back into sin? Was that a transformation of character and a manifestation of works or not?

 

[thessalonian]

Pastor Robert:

I was listening to your radio broadcast this morning with interest. The issue of sola fides was introduced and I believe poorly answered in terms of the epistle of James.

It is vital to understand that James is addressing that which is authentic faith, true saving faith which issues forth in good works. He is exposing those who profess faith but who manifest no fruit or ‘works’.

Good works according to the Scriptures are those which evidence moral transformation in terms of character, the work of the Spirit changing the sinner into conformity to the likeness of Christ.

A life that is not morally transformed by the Spirit of God is not savingly united to Christ by faith and will face eternal judgment, Romans 8v13.

To profess faith in Christ and to continue unchanged in terms of sin is to be deceived and still under condemnation.

I think we pretty much agree with that Pastor Robert. Essentially you are saying that works are needed for salvation. You see we as Catholics say that one who is not saved can work till he’s blue in the face, build a sky scraper to heaven for the poor and feed them all theoretically (not that he would) and still end up in hell. But the problem is both romans 2 and Matt 25 say you must have works.

Romans 2

4: Or do you presume upon the riches of his kindness and forbearance and patience? Do you not know that God’s kindness is meant to lead you to repentance?
5: But by your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God’s righteous judgment will be revealed.
6: For he will render to every man according to his works:
7: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life;
8: but for those who are factious and do not obey the truth, but obey wickedness, there will be wrath and fury.

Now I wouldn’t want to go to the pearly gates without some works under my belt. But the deal is that without Christ we can do NOTHING but in him we can do ALL THINGS. Thus all the things that we can do are by his grace. And that’s what the scriptures tell us.

Eph 3
20: Now to him who by the power AT WORK WITHIN US is able to do far more abundantly than all that we ask or think,
21: to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus to all generations, for ever and ever. Amen.

Matt 4
20: But those that were sown upon the good soil are the ones who hear the word and accept it and bear fruit, thirtyfold and sixtyfold and a hundredfold."

Now why wouldn’t God working in us have salvific impact. The impact is in keeping us in his grace. A question to you is would it ever be possible for someone to stop doing good and turn to evil? Once again, a Catholic believes for the works to be of value he must be saved and then like Paul says of the good he does “not I, but Christ lives in me”. It is God’s work that goes on inside us.

Blessings

 

[DaveD]

Pastor Robert:

It is vital to understand that James is addressing that which is authentic faith, true saving faith which issues forth in good works. He is exposing those who profess faith but who manifest no fruit or ‘works’.

Pastor Robert,

Welcome to the forum! I’m so glad you made this post. This kind of dialog is essential for Christians if we ever expect to attempt a realization of the unity mentioned in our Lord’s prayer as recorded in John 17.

You are 100% correct! We are saved by the grace of God through faith working in love. The genuine faith will lead those to manifest it in ways of works that emit forth from the heart of the faith. If these actions of genuine faith are not present then that faith is dead. The actions can be many things, prayer, charity, discipline, counsel, basically the consecrated life. The works are things that the soul wants to do because of its faith if it is to worship God in spirit and in truth. Worshiping in spirit and in truth is the most important thing to accomplish for the soul who has genuine faith. That is why the Bible says, “the true worshipers of God worship in spirit and in truth.”

Again, welcome sir! Spend as much time as you like here. We are glad to have you.

 

[Fidelis]

It is vital to understand that James is addressing that which is authentic faith, true saving faith which issues forth in good works. He is exposing those who profess faith but who manifest no fruit or ‘works’.

The text in question nowhere contains this qualifer of the faith being spoken of as a “saving faith which manifests itself in good works” as opposed to intellectual assent apart from good deeds (i.e., works). It isn’t even implied, as inserting this term into the text (rather than just “faith”) makes for some absurd results:

14 What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he
has **saving faith which manifests itself in good works ** but does not have works? Can that saving faith which manifests itself in good works save him?
15 If a brother or sister has nothing to wear and has no food for the day,
16 and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, keep warm, and eat well,” but you do not give them the necessities of the body, what good is it?
17 So also saving faith which manifests itself in good works of itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
18 Indeed someone might say, “You have saving faith which manifests itself in good works and I have works.” Demonstrate your saving faith which manifests itself in good works to me without works, and I will demonstrate my saving faith which manifests itself in good works to you from my works.
19 You believe that God is one. You do well. Even the demons believe that and tremble.
20 Do you want proof, you ignoramus, that saving faith which manifests itself in good works without works is useless?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar?
22 You see that saving faith which manifests itself in good works was active along with his works, and saving faith which manifests itself in good works was completed by the works.
23 Thus the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” and he was called “the friend of God.”
24 See how a person is justified by works and not by **saving faith which manifests itself in good works ** alone.
25 And in the same way, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she welcomed the messengers and sent them out by a different route?
26 For just as a body without a spirit is dead, so also saving faith which manifests itself in good works without works is dead.

Huh!?

 

[DaveD]

Fidelis:

The text in question nowhere contains this qualifer of the faith being spoken of as a “saving faith which manifests itself in good works” as opposed to intellectual assent apart from good deeds (i.e., works). It isn’t even implied

Pastor Robert,

I should have said you are 100% correct in pointing out that our works are a result of our faith. But you must know that our faith is the result of Grace. Saving Grace!

Fidelis is correct in pointing out that it is not implied that faith alone saves. I didn’t catch that in your statement. We are saved by Grace, through faith working in love. The very notion of salvation by faith alone implies that God’s grace is not needed and that tying to do God’s will is not needed.

How are children saved who have no faith? Grace.

How are mentally handicapped people saved who have no faith? Grace.

This does not mean that for the unaware christian faith is absent because it is through the faith of the Church that all of her members are baptized into the New Covenant.

How do competent mature people get their faith? Grace.

How is salvation possible? By Grace, through Faith, Working in love.

We did not deserve any of this. This possibility exists only through the grace of God.

 

[2heartsaz1]

I was reading another thread with a similar theme:

When Jesus is asked: “What must I do to inherit eternal life?”
check out His answer.

For Mr. Stephen Marten’s book on this topic:

www.ILoveGod.com

Three times in Sacred Scripture
Jesus answers “obey the commandments” and twice he tells us to love. (MAT 19:16) (MAR 10:17) (LUK 18:18) (LUK 10:25)

Tangentially, when St. Paul discusses faith, hope and love, he states that the *greateast *of these is love.

Christ’s peace,
D in AZ

 

[2heartsaz1]

Sorry, the Catholic website listed above was missing the word ‘You’ and is here:

ILoveYouGod.com

and was written and designed not be me, but Steven Merten, spelling error again.

D

 

[Fidelis]

Pastor Robert:

I was listening to your radio broadcast this morning with interest. The issue of sola fides was introduced and I believe poorly answered in terms of the epistle of James.

It is vital to understand that James is addressing that which is authentic faith, true saving faith which issues forth in good works. He is exposing those who profess faith but who manifest no fruit or ‘works’.

Good works according to the Scriptures are those which evidence moral transformation in terms of character, the work of the Spirit changing the sinner into conformity to the likeness of Christ.

A life that is not morally transformed by the Spirit of God is not savingly united to Christ by faith and will face eternal judgment, Romans 8v13.

To profess faith in Christ and to continue unchanged in terms of sin is to be deceived and still under condemnation.

“…and they never heard from “Pastor Robert” again. The End”

One post, no replies to those who replied.

 

[michaelgazin]

"…and they never heard from “Pastor Robert” again. The End"

One post, no replies to those who replied.

The last and only activity of him, according to Catholic Answers, was when he posted this. Never logged on again.

 

[MariaG]

Now, now :tsktsk: more charity in thought is needed. The date he posted was late Friday evening. If he is a pastor, he probably needed to get his sermon finished. Give him another week to next Friday evening with enough bumps to the top to keep this in sight then you can have at him!

Not all one time posters are hit and run posts. Some are sincerely busy, as I would expect a pastor to be. Remember, he is probably married and must put God first, do his job and take care of his family. Today, Memorial Day, is probably busy with family activities.

Maria

 

[Tom]

Pastor Robert, welcome to the forum. Please excuse any of our sharp rude answers, we’re used to dealing with rude people, so when a gentleman arrives we have a tendency to treat you like so very many who have come before, I know it isn’t fair or even Christian, but it is a learned response. Forgive us please.
Pastor Robert:

I was listening to your radio broadcast this morning with interest. The issue of sola fides was introduced and I believe poorly answered in terms of the epistle of James.

I would like to address any of the “solas”. I have a real problem with all of the “sola” teachings. It seems to me the “sola” proponents are looking for the easy way, just tell me the “one” thing I need to do or believe. The problem is there is no “sola” it’s all, not one. Faith? Sure faith is needed but it isn’t the “sola” we can make it seem like it is, but realistically we’re trying to make Scripture it conform to it rather than having it comnform to Scripture. Grace? Of course, we couldn’t do anything without the grace of God, it is certainly needed, but how do we have two “sola”s sola does mean one. Scripture? Absolutely but “sola” Scriptura? I don’t think so. I could read Scripture all day long but if I don’t accept the grace of God and I don’t have faith, Scripture would just be a book wouldn’t it? To me all of the “sola”s are like a drive thru fast food restaurant, you want fries with your sola fide? We’re looking for the quick way, please just tell me the “one” thing I must do. Jesus teaches us this when He addresses the rich young man, remember? Why wouldn’t Jesus tell him the “one” thing he needed to do? Because there is no one or “sola” thing. It’s ALL not “sola”.

 

[jjwilkman]

what’s this about. faith, works? God is Him Who Is.
how about knowledge, acceptance. works will follow as surely as day follows night works are the witness of our Holy Catholic Church. how about history?

 

[Fidelis]

MariaG:

Now, now :tsktsk: more charity in thought is needed. The date he posted was late Friday evening. If he is a pastor, he probably needed to get his sermon finished. Give him another week to next Friday evening with enough bumps to the top to keep this in sight then you can have at him!

OK, then. Bump.

 

[Pastor_Robert]

Hi all

I’m back…forgive my delay but I am a very busy pastor and with my fellow pastor on vacation at present there are more demands on me at present. Do not worry my dear friends I am not offended, insulted or hurt by any of the harsher remarks.

I’m greatly encouraged at generating such a discussion.

I would respectfully want to point out a few things from my Reformed perspective.

The Reformers never taught that saving faith ever exists without works following. They taught most clearly that saving faith in Jesus Christ produces obedience to the word of God and the pursuit of a life of good works. If you take time to read John Calvin or Martin Luther or other English Puritans you will discover this most clearly.

The issue of ‘faith alone’ centers upon the matter of one’s justification and not sanctification.

The basis for our acceptance with God is the person and work of Christ alone, plus nothing, not our works or anything else. In order to obtain this blessing faith alone in Christ is required. The apostle Paul is clear about this in Romans 3v19-26. This is the biblical doctrine of justification.

The faith that is required is a gift from God, ie received by grace alone. The reason for this being that man is dead in sin and spiritually unable to do anything to make himself right with God. only the sovereign regenerating power of the Holy Spirit can quicken a man in his soul and make him alive to God. Again this is most clearly taught in Pau’s writing to the Ephesians 2v1-10.

If we believe that our acceptance with God includes our efforts then we destroy the sufficiency of Christ’s work and therefore the heart of the gospel itself.

In terms of the new life that we come to possess by grace we are then involved in the pursuit of holiness as the Spirit works in us. This is our sanctification and is an inseparable result of our justification but not the same thing. Failure to understand the difference will result in the errors that Romanism propagates.

I look forward to your responses.

With love and respect

Pastor Robert

 

[michaelgazin]

It is good to have you back!
Pastor Robert:

The faith that is required is a gift from God, ie received by grace alone.

It is important to note that to *have *faith, is to *do *something. It is a requirement by God, that we must do. Faith is a verb, and faith is a work.

You made the distinction that faith is a gift from God, by His grace alone, and we are incapable of *doing *this apart from the graces of God. Amen to that. Catholic dogma firmly teaches grace alone. With this understanding however, that is, faith is not a work but a gift from God’s graces, works of love can be described in the exact same way. We are incapable of doing *anything *good on our own, apart from the graces of God. When we commit a good work, we were only able to do so because God gave us the grace necessary to do so on that occasion. Our good works are a free gift from God because of His graces. In the same way that the act of faith is not us *doing *anything, any other act of love we do is not by our own doing but because of God’s graces.

It is clear that you believe the Catholic teaching allows for Catholics to “work” their way to heaven. This is not the case. That was a heresy condemned 1500 years ago or so. Faith is a gift from God, the same as other good works are gifts from God as well.

Peace,
Michael

 

[Philthy]

Pastor Robert:

I was listening to your radio broadcast this morning with interest. The issue of sola fides was introduced and I believe poorly answered in terms of the epistle of James.

It is vital to understand that James is addressing that which is authentic faith, true saving faith which issues forth in good works. He is exposing those who profess faith but who manifest no fruit or ‘works’.

Good works according to the Scriptures are those which evidence moral transformation in terms of character, the work of the Spirit changing the sinner into conformity to the likeness of Christ.

A life that is not morally transformed by the Spirit of God is not savingly united to Christ by faith and will face eternal judgment, Romans 8v13.

To profess faith in Christ and to continue unchanged in terms of sin is to be deceived and still under condemnation.

Correct - the term “faith alone” is an oxymoron. It doesn’t exist. When James uses the term “faith alone” he really means those who claim to “believe” in Jesus, but who don’t manifest that belief into their life. Of significant importance is the concept that works are not only the manifestation of one’s faith but the evidence or proof of it - not only to others, but to yourself as well.
Sola Fide at best represents a theological reality which is unverifiable in this life. It is a dangerous term since it is easily misunderstood to mean that one need not cooperate with God’s Grace through faith on a daily basis. Bad term.

Phil