Sola Fides

[Pastor_Robert]

Michael

It is important to ask the question how does a sinner come to possess faith ?

This is a key issue that needs to be answered to prevent discussion at cross purposes.

It is also vital to define ‘grace’ so as to make sure that when we use the term we mean the same thing. If we define things differently then we need to defend our definition from scripture.

Look forward to opening this up.

Sincerely

Pastor Robert

 

[Robert_in_SD]

Hello Pastor, and welcome to the forums;

The issue of ‘faith alone’ centers upon the matter of one’s justification and not sanctification.

Below is my comment on the point you are making, quoted above:

The distinction between justification and sanctification seems to be an artificial construct created to justify the doctrine of sola fide. I don’t know of any express (or implied) scripture passages that make a clear distinction between “justification” and “sanctification.” In fact, Paul’s writings seem to use the terms interchangeably. At best for the protestant position, it seems to me that the two terms are referring to slightly different aspects of an overall salvation process that involves faith and works performed under a system of God’s grace, and not under the system of law.

Robert Sungenis’s book Not by Faith Alone is much more articulate about this failing.

Four questions to follow up on my comment:

Q. Do you believe in the doctrine of the assurance of salvation a.k.a. “Once Saved Always Saved?”

Q. Are there scripture passages in the NT that expressly clarify that there is a “sanctification” process that takes place separate and apart from one’s “justification?”

Q. If justification is separate from “sanctification” then how can one be saved without being “sanctified” given Christ’s injunction to be perfect as our Father in Heaven is perfect, and given the express statement that nothing unholy will enter heaven?

Q. If justification by faith alone is all that is necessary for salvation, then why must one be concerned about “sanctification” at all?

 

[Robert_in_SD]

If we believe that our acceptance with God includes our efforts then we destroy the sufficiency of Christ’s work and therefore the heart of the gospel itself.

Hello again Pastor Robert;

I’ve seen many Reformed apoligists jump to this conclusion without biblical support. Where is your support for the conclusion that believing one’s good works - performed under God’s grace, in gratitude, and which we know are pleasing to God, is a denial of the sufficiency of Christ’s atonement. Faith without works is dead faith. This statement does not include the phrase “…except saving faith.” It means ALL faith is dead without good works. One reading the whole of scriptue can understand that Christ called us all to repent, believe AND keep His commandments. Clearly, then, if one has faith alone, but does not act upon that faith, one is not respecting the entire Gospel message.

If your response is that “works are the fruit of faith” then I would say you are partly correct, but it is also true that those fruits are necessary for one to obtain salvation.

 

[Philthy]

MariaG:

Now, now :tsktsk: more charity in thought is needed. The date he posted was late Friday evening. If he is a pastor, he probably needed to get his sermon finished. Give him another week to next Friday evening with enough bumps to the top to keep this in sight then you can have at him!

Not all one time posters are hit and run posts. Some are sincerely busy, as I would expect a pastor to be. Remember, he is probably married and must put God first, do his job and take care of his family. Today, Memorial Day, is probably busy with family activities.

Maria

Maria is right, of course. Cut the guy some slack. Maybe he has a life and went on vacation. It does no good to hear “salvation is not by faith alone” from some one who can’t be charitable in delivering the message. In fact it probably does harm. I’m guilty too, so don’t think Im lecturing. So hard to maintain charity when we stereotype people and carry the baggage of past posts into new ones…

Phil

 

[michaelgazin]

Well, lets put it this way:

Do you believe that you can be saved by a faith that has no works?

 

[savone]

Philthy:

Maria is right, of course. Cut the guy some slack. Maybe he has a life and went on vacation. It does no good to hear “salvation is not by faith alone” from some one who can’t be charitable in delivering the message. In fact it probably does harm. I’m guilty too, so don’t think Im lecturing. So hard to maintain charity when we stereotype people and carry the baggage of past posts into new ones…

Phil

You got that right! Not to hijack the thread, but I’m beginning to wonder if, as a Protestant, coming to CAF to learn about Cathloicism was such a good idea. Sounds like you’re in a conversation with a gentleman and, and, a Christian; meaning a disciple of Jesus Christ. My prayer is that you will all benefit from the discussion to the glory of God.

 

[jordan]

Pastor Robert:

In terms of the new life that we come to possess by grace we are then involved in the pursuit of holiness as the Spirit works in us. This is our sanctification and is an inseparable result of our justification but not the same thing. Failure to understand the difference will result in the errors that Romanism propagates.

Pastor Robert:

Rather than throw around vague and prejudicial phrases like “the errors that Romanism propagates,” why don’t we redirect things from what individual Catholics may, or may not have said, to what the Church teaches? Please read this passage from the Catechism of the Catholic Church regarding Grace and Justification, and enlighten me with what, and by what authority, you find fault.

vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P6Y.HTM

In charity and Truth,
jordan

 

[Pastor_Robert]

Jordan

I thought my statement was quite clear to be honest. I obviously agree it did not specify, so here goes from the Catechism you referred me to.

‘The grace of the Holy Spirit has the power to justify us, that is, to cleanse us from our sins and to communicate to us the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ and through Baptism’,

I smell the heresy of baptismal regeneration in this very clear statement. Here is a foundational error of Rome that deceives many into trusting their eternal destiny to a sprinkling of water on their head.

Jesus Christ alone my friend, plus nothing.

That gets us off to a clear start

Warmest regards

RB

 

[Pastor_Robert]

Robert in SD:

Hello Pastor, and welcome to the forums;

Below is my comment on the point you are making, quoted above:

The distinction between justification and sanctification seems to be an artificial construct created to justify the doctrine of sola fide. I don’t know of any express (or implied) scripture passages that make a clear distinction between “justification” and “sanctification.” In fact, Paul’s writings seem to use the terms interchangeably. At best for the protestant position, it seems to me that the two terms are referring to slightly different aspects of an overall salvation process that involves faith and works performed under a system of God’s grace, and not under the system of law.

Robert Sungenis’s book Not by Faith Alone is much more articulate about this failing.

Four questions to follow up on my comment:

Q. Do you believe in the doctrine of the assurance of salvation a.k.a. “Once Saved Always Saved?”

Yes I do believe this, but not as some fundamentalist evangelicals teach it, ie profess faith and live as you please, this is nowhere supported in Scripture.

Q. Are there scripture passages in the NT that expressly clarify that there is a “sanctification” process that takes place separate and apart from one’s “justification?”

The distinction between justification and sanctification is made in Paul’s epistle to the Romans.

In chapters 3-5 he deals with our standing before God.

In chapters 6-8 he deals with our progress in grace.

If one is truly justified by faith he will pursue a holy life, in other words progress in sanctification.

Q. If justification is separate from “sanctification” then how can one be saved without being “sanctified” given Christ’s injunction to be perfect as our Father in Heaven is perfect, and given the express statement that nothing unholy will enter heaven?

I think this questions shows you fail to understand the issue of justification and sanctification their relationship. I hope my comments in the questions you ask above bring clarity.

Q. If justification by faith alone is all that is necessary for salvation, then why must one be concerned about “sanctification” at all?

Justification leads inseparably to sanctification. Someone who claims to be justified but have no interest in sanctification is deceived and most probably a false professor of Christ.

Hope this helps

Warmest regards

RB

 

[Mickey]

savone:

You got that right! Not to hijack the thread, but I’m beginning to wonder if, as a Protestant, coming to CAF to learn about Cathloicism was such a good idea. Sounds like you’re in a conversation with a gentleman and, and, a Christian; meaning a disciple of Jesus Christ. My prayer is that you will all benefit from the discussion to the glory of God.

He may have started as a gentleman, but his true colors are beginning to show. The good pastor has made these insulting and offensive statements:

Failure to understand the difference will result in the errors that Romanism propagates.

I smell the heresy of baptismal regeneration in this very clear statement. Here is a foundational error of Rome that deceives many into trusting their eternal destiny to a sprinkling of water on their head.

You see, of all the protestant denominations, reformed baptists are usually the most anti-Catholic of the bunch.

 

[Pastor_Robert]

Mickey

I am not ashamed of the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ for it is the power of God unto salvation to everyone that believes.

If by talking straight about error convicts me of ‘not being a gentleman’ then so be it. My goal is faithfulness to my Lord and Savior.

Rome is allowed to view me as a heretic or anathema and yet remain ‘gentlemanly’ under your definition.

If we would have honest and clear dialog then straight and clear communication is necessary.

I wish only good for my RC neighbors but that does not mean I condone the doctrines of their system.

I came in here to engage in serious theological discussion and understand modern Romanism. I answered a question put to me and await a response, which by the way I see you did not give.

With sincere good wishes

RB

 

[thessalonian]

Pastor Robert,

Romanism is a derogatory term. I suggest you refrain from using it. Could you take a gander at my first post on this thread. I think it answers your question quite sufficenty. I will be glad to engage in further, charitable discussions with you. Peace sir.

 

[Pastor_Robert]

Thessalonian

My apologies, it is not my intention to use derogatory language. Would you mind letting me know how the term is derogatory? I will refrain from using it if it offends, I am not desirous to offend un-necessarily.

Regarding your first post about Romans 2 and Matthew 25 my response would be this.

God will take into account works at the final judgment but not in terms of merit so as to gain acceptance. Acceptance with Him is purely based on Christ and Him crucified.

Our works shall be taken into account as evidence of otherwise of the genuineness of our faith. In others words our works will either prove our salvation or otherwise.

Ephesians 2v8-10 indicates that all the good works of one of God’s elect are ordained beforehand by God and as such are proof not grounds of justification.

Respectfully yours

RB

 

[Eden]

Ro·man·ism [img.tfd.com/hm/pron.gif](javascriptlay(‘R0293600’)) (rhttp://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/omacr.gifhttp://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/prime.gifmhttp://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/schwa.gif-nhttp://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/ibreve.gifzhttp://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/lprime.gifhttp://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/schwa.gifm)

n. Offensive Roman Catholicism

thefreedictionary.com/Romanism

This term is used by anti-Catholics like James White and Ian Paisley. Correct terms are “Catholic” “Roman Catholic” or “Latin Rite Catholic”.

 

[thessalonian]

Pastor Robert:

Thessalonian

My apologies, it is not my intention to use derogatory language. Would you mind letting me know how the term is derogatory? I will refrain from using it if it offends, I am not desirous to offend un-necessarily.

Regarding your first post about Romans 2 and Matthew 25 my response would be this.

God will take into account works at the final judgment but not in terms of merit so as to gain acceptance. Acceptance with Him is purely based on Christ and Him crucified.

Our works shall be taken into account as evidence of otherwise of the genuineness of our faith. In others words our works will either prove our salvation or otherwise.

Ephesians 2v8-10 indicates that all the good works of one of God’s elect are ordained beforehand by God and as such are proof not grounds of justification.

Respectfully yours

RB

With regard to offense of the term Romanism, I’ll just refer you to the dictionary which if you look says “offensive”. You don’t have to worry about me. I’m not easily offended. I just think it would be better for relations on this board if you avoided it.

dictionary.reference.com/search?q=romanism

The Catholic view is that we are saved (justified and sanctified) by grace alone. So we do not believe that the works justify per sey. It is not even out of line to say that the works do not save in the protestant context of the word save because we as Catholics do not believe that a work is any good unless someone is “saved” i.e. in the friendship of God, i.e. a new Creation.

The only caveat is that works from our perspective are a virtue that counteracts vice. Thus they build up our spiritual bodies. A good work is to the soul as weightlifting is to the body. If our lives are filled with good they will not be filled with the evil that Romans 2 and Matt 25 speak of. Do you not agree that one had better have some works under his belt according to Romans 2 and Matt 25. The main difference in this area is that Catholic believe as the Bible teaches that we can fall from grace. Good works give us strength against this happening. Once again the good comes about because of God’s grace working in our soul.

As far as Eph 2:8-10 goes that is not a problem in Catholic theology. Once again we are SAVED already for the works to be of any value. We have to be in God’s friendship or they are worthless as filthy rags. Once we are “saved” however they are of value and even then we cannot boast of them because as I quoted before in Ephesians 3:20 which you did not address, it is God’s grace working in us to his greater glory. They are his works and we cannot do them without his grace. How could we boast of such an arrangement?

Blessings

 

[thessalonian]

By the way Pastor Robert, it is my guess that you come here expecting to take a few souls from the Church. Maybe your just in it for the discussion but be honest with me. I am going to let you in on a rather interesting phenomena I have observed in my many years on these boards. I have been on perhaps 20 boards. More of them Protestant than Catholic and I do not recall one Catholic who has become protestant in such forums. But I have seen dozens go the other direction. Protestant to Catholic. I am doing a few poles on some boards to confirm this and it is holding true. On one board us Catholics were outnumbered at least 5:1 yet no Catholics were converted and at least 2 Protestants that I know became Catholic. When Catholicism is explained on these boards and when it is disparaged with obvious distortions it shines quite brightly. Hang around and you will see. Anti-Catholics (I am not saying you are) generally help our cause more than hurt it. Rational people see through it.

Blessings

 

[Subrosa]

Ok, my two cents.

It seems to me that Christ put it this way…

Matthew 7:
**
21 "Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name? Did we not drive out demons in your name? Did we not do mighty deeds in your name?’ 23 Then I will declare to them solemnly, ‘I never knew you. Depart from me, you evildoers.’ 24 “Everyone who listens to these words of mine and acts on them will be like a wise man who built his house on rock. 25 The rain fell, the floods came, and the winds blew and buffeted the house. But it did not collapse; it had been set solidly on rock. 26 And everyone who listens to these words of mine but does not act on them will be like a fool who built his house on sand. 27 The rain fell, the floods came, and the winds blew and buffeted the house. And it collapsed and was completely ruined.” It seems rather evident in this discourse by Christ that, even though at first He is addressing false prophets, Christ is saying that BOTH faith and works are required. This discourse is very revealing, especially in verses 21 - 24.

No one can earn passage into heaven through good works. No one can only live in faith and gain entry, either. Notice the sentence, “…but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven.”

Doesn’t “doing the will” mean that we must go beyond faith alone?

Good works is the result and manifestation of Gods Grace. No one can earn passage into heaven through works alone, or, for that matter, faith alone.

That’s my two cents.

Subrosa

 

[Subrosa]

thessalonian:

By the way Pastor Robert, it is my guess that you come here expecting to take a few souls from the Church. Maybe your just in it for the discussion but be honest with me. I am going to let you in on a rather interesting phenomena I have observed in my many years on these boards. I have been on perhaps 20 boards. More of them Protestant than Catholic and I do not recall one Catholic who has become protestant in such forums. But I have seen dozens go the other direction. Protestant to Catholic. I am doing a few poles on some boards to confirm this and it is holding true. On one board us Catholics were outnumbered at least 5:1 yet no Catholics were converted and at least 2 Protestants that I know became Catholic. When Catholicism is explained on these boards and when it is disparaged with obvious distortions it shines quite brightly. Hang around and you will see. Anti-Catholics (I am not saying you are) generally help our cause more than hurt it. Rational people see through it.

Blessings

Hey! Maybe the Pastor will convert! or not.http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon10.gif

 

[Shlemele]

Hey there pastor Robert! welcome to the boards, it’s nice to see another Anabaptist around!

From what I have found so far you seem to be a “gentleman” as well (I try to be one at least most of the time). This can be a great forum, there are always those that seek confrontation but for the most part conflict is kept to theology and not between members of the board. All of us here are passionate about our beliefs and we all can fall to the sin of pride. When we seek to humbly engage in discussion we grow in our understanding of God and our respective churches.

As far as the subject of the thread goes I heard a story that is a pretty good analogy of how I understand the concept;

A man gets to the gates of heaven and upon reaching St.Peter he is stopped.

“Ok we have a point system here, you need a total of 5000 to get into heaven so let’s get started, what good things did you do?” Saint Peter said to the man.

“Well I went to church every Sunday.” the man replied.

“Very good, 3 points” Saint Peter replied.

The man looked stunned for a moment, appeared to think and then said " Well I was faithful to my wife for 45 years and never raised my voice to her"

“Excellent, that is another 2 points! What else?” Saint Peter said.

“I taught Sunday school and lead ten of my friends to Christ” the man said, looking visibly shaken by this point.

“Wow you certainly have done well with the time the Lord gave you! that is 20 points! Only 4,975 to go!” said Saint Peter

Now desperation had set in and the man began to shake before the Saint. “Please Peter, for the grace of God how does anyone get in to heaven?”

“Oh, the grace of God, 5000 points, enter into heaven!”

I know this is a simplified version but I find this helps me understand what the grace of God means. Works in life are great and should be a part of any Christians life, but in comparison to the grace of God they are miniscule.

I am by no means an authority I just thought of this story as I was reading and thought I would share it.

 

[jordan]

‘The grace of the Holy Spirit has the power to justify us, that is, to cleanse us from our sins and to communicate to us the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ and through Baptism’,

I smell the heresy of baptismal regeneration in this very clear statement. Here is a foundational error of Rome that deceives many into trusting their eternal destiny to a sprinkling of water on their head.

Pastor Robert,

The line you quoted, and “smell heresy in,” is based on Scripture. The necessity of faith, and baptism, is clearly stated in Mark 16:16 - “He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved” (KJV). Now, the Chuch teaches that the “sprinkling of water” is not the only means of baptism, but baptism is necessary for salvation.

I asked for you to provide your authority for disagreeing with the Church’s teaching, and I see none. You **smell **heresy. Scripture supports the Church’s teaching. Do you disagree?

Warmest regards to you, also.

jb