Sola Fides

[Subrosa]

Pastor Robert:

Are you saying that salvation can be obtained and then lost?

Hi Paster Robert-

I think there is a problem of understanding of the nature of sin.
Luther and Calvin taught as their fundamental error that no free will properly so called remained in man after the fall of our first parents; that the fulfillment of God’s precepts is impossible even with the assistance of grace, and that man in all his actions sins. Grace is not an interior gift, but something external. To some sin is not imputed, because they are covered as with a cloak by the merits of Christ. Faith alone saves, there is no necessity for good works. These teachings are fraught with error and are deadly.

To understand the Catholic Church doctrine first one must understand the nature of sin. In the Old Testament sin is set forth as an act of disobedience (Gen., ii, 16-17; iii, 11; Is., i, 2-4; Jer., ii, 32); as an insult to God (Num., xxvii, 14); as something detested and punished by God (Gen., iii, 14-19; Gen., iv, 9-16); as injurious to the sinner (Tob., xii, 10); to be expiated by penance (Ps. 1, 19). In the New Testament it is clearly taught in St. Paul that sin is a transgression of the law (Rom., ii, 23; v, 12-20); a servitude from which we are liberated by grace (Rom., vi, 16-18); a disobedience (Heb., ii, 2) punished by God (Heb., x, 26-31). St. John describes sin as an offence to God, a disorder of the will (John, xii, 43), an iniquity (I John, iii, 4-10). Christ in many of His utterances teaches the nature and extent of sin. He came to promulgate a new law more perfect than the old, which would extend to the ordering not only of external but also of internal acts to a degree unknown before, and, in His Sermon on the Mount, he condemns as sinful many acts which were judged honest and righteous by the doctors and teachers of the Old Law. He denounces in a special manner hypocrisy and scandal, infidelity and the sin against the Holy Ghost. In particular He teaches that sins come from the heart (Matt., xv, 19-20).

Contrary to the teaching the Reformers, a sin must be a voluntary act as put forth by Christ Himself (Matt., xv, 19-20). Those actions alone are properly called human or moral actions which proceed from the human will deliberately acting with knowledge of the end for which it acts. Man differs from all irrational creatures in this precisely that he is master of his actions by virtue of his reason and free will. Since sin is a human act wanting in due rectitude, it must have, in so far as it is a human act, the essential constituents of a human act. The intellect must perceive and judge of the morality of the act, and the will must freely elect. For a deliberate mortal (deadly) sin there must be full advertence on the part of the intellect and full consent on the part of the will in a grave matter. An involuntary transgression of the law even in a grave matter is not a formal but a material sin. The gravity of the matter is judged from the teaching of Scripture, the definitions of councils and popes, and also from reason. Those sins are judged to be mortal which contain in themselves some grave disorder in regard to God, our neighbour, ourselves, or society. Some sins admit of no lightness of matter, as for example, blasphemy, hatred of God; they are always mortal.

Examples:

Luke 12:10

10 "And everyone who will speak a word against the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven him; but he who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him. This passage represents sins that are both forgivable and unforgivable.

Hebrews 6:4-6

This passage speaks of one who has fallen away so completely that “it is impossible to renew them again to repentance…” If repentance is an impossibility, then such a person has reached a point where he cannot be forgiven and indeed is removed from Grace through his own actions.

Hebrews 10:26-29

Notice that those described here have gotten themselves into such a situation that “there no longer remains a sacrifice for sin.” (v. 26) If the sacrifice for sin is gone, then there can be no forgiveness. Again Grace has been removed through thier own actions.

Simply put, one removes ones self from Grace as an act of free will, it is NOT that God rescinds grace.

Subrosa

 

[Magicsilence]

neophyte:

I find it odd that no one’s yet discussed what faith is; usually it helps to define terms up front. Here’s what I use, it’s a composite from the Catechism of the Catholic Church:
Faith is something we do and not merely something we think.

My whole above post was on that issue, if you read it.

 

[Magicsilence]

Subrosa:

Hi Paster Robert-

Hebrews 6:4-6

This passage speaks of one who has fallen away so completely that “it is impossible to renew them again to repentance…” If repentance is an impossibility, then such a person has reached a point where he cannot be forgiven and indeed is removed from Grace through his own actions.

Hebrews 10:26-29

Notice that those described here have gotten themselves into such a situation that “there no longer remains a sacrifice for sin.” (v. 26) If the sacrifice for sin is gone, then there can be no forgiveness. Again Grace has been removed through thier own actions.

Simply put, one removes ones self from Grace as an act of free will, it is NOT that God rescinds grace.

Subrosa

But doesnt God say there is no sin that cannot be forgiven, i think what it means is, when you get to the stage of blaspheming against God, satanic worship etc… you would never want to repent your sins, otherwise scripture contradicts itself.

but otherwise, WELL SAID!

 

[MariaG]

Respectfully,

I think the discussion (or new thread?) needs to turn to **free will or select elect. **

It seems ludricrous that if God does the electing, that one could lose their salvation.

It is equally ludicrous that if man chooses to follow Christ with the Grace provided by God, but has the freewill to accept or reject that Grace, that man would be unable to then at a later date reject that Grace and walk away from God.

JMHO,
Maria

 

[piety101]

Pastor Robert

                 I want to ask you a simple question. When you real ALL the passages of what Jesus desires of those who follow him, is believing the only action that he preached on? It is very easy to take isolated texts like John 3:16 and say, "See there! That's all I have to do. Just believe in Jesus and I have eternal life."

                  But this is my point. That is not all that Jesus said or commanded those who follow him to do, when you read all his instructions and commands. Faith implies obeying our Lord as well. If Jesus says believe AND be baptized to be saved, he means what he says. If Jesus says eat my flesh and drink my blood that you may have life, he also means what he says. If Jesus says, not all who say, Lord, Lord will be saved, but he that DOES the will of my Father, he means what he says.

                  Do you realize that all Protestant denominations are built on EACH ONE taking out isolated texts and building their said doctrines on them? Yes, it's true. I was once in that Protestant confusion for many years. The Catholic Faith is the only one that takes ALL of what Jesus and his apostles said as a whole and not piecemeal. Think on what I'm saying to you.

 

[BibleReader]

Pastor Robert: I would add to your presentation in #1 that the Holy Spirit would never, and has never, issued a grace of faith non-relevant to works.

 

[Ignatius]

Pastor Robert:

Are you saying that salvation can be obtained and then lost?

Let us ask, rather, what Scripture is saying about this and if we are willing to accept what scriputre says.

The Once-Saved-Always-Saved Quiz
Ezekiel 18:21-22, 24
“If a wicked man turns away from all the sins he has committed and keeps all my decrees and does what is just and right, he will surely live; he will not die. None of the offenses he has committed will be remembered against him.”
“But if a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sin and does the same detestable things the wicked man does, will he live? None of the righteous things he has done will be remembered. Because of the unfaithfulness he is guilty of and because of the sins he has committed, he will die.”
Question:
If a wicked man turns away from his sins and is justified, and then turns back to his sins, will he still live?
A. Yes
B. No
C. I’m going to pretend I didn’t see those verses

1 Corinthians 11:32
“When we are judged by the Lord, we are being disciplined so that we will not be condemned with the world.”
Question:
Is it possible for a Christian to be condemned with the world?
A. Yes
B. No
C. I’m going to pretend I didn’t see that verse
Extra credit:
According to the Bible, why does God discipline us?
(HINT: “To prevent us from being ___________ with the world”)

2 Timothy 2:12
“If we disown him, he will also disown us.”
Question:
If a Christian repudiates Christ, will he himself be repudiated?
A. Yes
B. No
C. I’m going to pretend I didn’t see that verse

Your brother in Christ.

 

[michaelgazin]

Addition to above quiz:

Romans 11:16-24
“16: If the dough offered as first fruits is holy, so is the whole lump; and if the root is holy, so are the branches.
17: But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, a wild olive shoot, were grafted in their place to share the richness of the olive tree,
18: do not boast over the branches. If you do boast, remember it is not you that support the root, but the root that supports you.
19: You will say, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.”
20: That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast only through faith. So do not become proud, but stand in awe.
21: For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you.
22: Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off.
23: And even the others, if they do not persist in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God has the power to graft them in again.
24: For if you have been cut from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and grafted, contrary to nature, into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these natural branches be grafted back into their own olive tree.”

Who is the root?
A. Jesus
B. You
C. I’m going to pretend I didn’t see that verse

Can a branch, supported by the root, be cut off?
A. Yes
B. No
C. I’m going to pretend I didn’t see that verse

Can a gentile, who is radically joined (grafted) to Christ, be cut off?
A. Yes
B. No
C. I’m going to pretend I didn’t see that verse

We will remain supported by Christ, provided we continue in ___?
A. Knowledge of Him as Lord
B. His kindness
C. I’m going to pretend I didn’t see that verse

The words kindness and _____ seem to be virtually interchangeable according to Paul.
A. Faith, belief
B. Knowledge
C. I’m going to pretend I didn’t see that verse

If we are standing fast through faith, can we *do *anything to be cut off?
A. Yes, we can boast
B. Yes, we can be proud
C. No, we can’t *do *anything to be saved, and likewise, we can’t *do *anything to lose salvation.

Can someone be saved who is cut off?
A. Yes
B. No
C. I’m going to pretend I didn’t see that verse

Will God spare all natural branches?
A. Yes
B. No
C. I’m going to pretend I didn’t see that verse

Will God spare all unnatural branches?
A. Yes
B. No
C. I’m going to pretend I didn’t see that verse

Is any branch guaranteed salvation from the time they are grafted to Christ?
A. Yes
B. No
C. I’m going to pretend I didn’t see that verse

 

[Ignatius]

michaelgazin:

Addition to above quiz:
Can a branch, supported by the root, be cut off?
A. Yes

We will remain supported by Christ, provided we continue in Him?
A. Yes

Can someone be saved who is cut off?
A. Yes
B. No

Excellent additions, thanks. Here’re a few more:

Revelation 22:14, 19
“Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city . . . If anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.”
Question:
If a Christian takes words away from the book of revelation, will he lose his share in the tree of life and to be excluded from the holy city?
A. Yes
B. No
C. I’m going to pretend I didn’t see that verse

1 Timothy 3:6
“[A potential bishop must not be] a new convert, lest he become conceited and fall into the condemnation incurred by the devil.”
Question:
Is it possible for a Christian to fall into the condemnation incurred by the devil?
A. Yes
B. No
C. I’m going to pretend I didn’t see that verse

2 Peter 2:20-21
“For if after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment delivered to them.”
Bonus Essay Question:
If a Christian cannot lose his salvation, even if he becomes entangled in the pollutions of the world, how can such entanglement be described as worse than his first (unsaved) condition? How can it be said of a saved man, “It would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness”?

Galatians 5:19-20
“The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.”
Question:
If a Christian lives in the manner described by Paul, will he inherit the kingdom of God?
A. Yes
B. No
C. I’m going to pretend I didn’t see that verse

Romans 11:22
“Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God; sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you also will be cut off.”
Question:
If a Christian does not continue in God’s kindness, will he be cut off?
A. Yes
B. No
C. I’m going to pretend I didn’t see that verse

1 Corinthians 15:2
“By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise you have believed in vain.”
Question:
If a Christian does not hold firmly to the gospel and falls away, will it be said of him that he believed for nothing?
A. Yes
B. No
C. I’m going to pretend I didn’t see that verse

Hebrews 4:1, 11
“Therefore, since the promise of entering his rest still stands, let us be careful that none of you be found to have fallen short of it . . . Let us, therefore, make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will fall by following their example of disobedience.”
Question:
If a Christian follows the Israelites example of disobedience, will he enter God’s rest?
A. Yes
B. No
C. I’m going to pretend I didn’t see that verse

Yours in Christ.

 

[neophyte]

Now, c’mon you two, is this entirely necessary? Do you have any idea how difficult it is for a lifelong Protestant to deal with what Catholic doctrine really says rather than the grotesque distortions we were always told about it? How uneasy it makes us feel to consider that perhaps Catholic doctrine makes more sense than our own? How horrifying it is to wake up one morning with the thought that maybe Mary really is the Queen of Heaven? How your whole body recoils with the latent feelings that praying to her and the rest of the saints in heaven is unforgivably blasphemous, regardless of what your mind is telling you must be true?

This is really difficult stuff, I went through it in spades quite recently, and it’s ungracious to attribute it to willful ignorance.

Whether or not the good Pastor eventually comes around or not, in all charity perhaps you could delete those posts and repost them with answer C deleted.

 

[Subrosa]

MariaG:

Respectfully,

I think the discussion (or new thread?) needs to turn to **free will or select elect. **

It seems ludricrous that if God does the electing, that one could lose their salvation.

It is equally ludicrous that if man chooses to follow Christ with the Grace provided by God, but has the freewill to accept or reject that Grace, that man would be unable to then at a later date reject that Grace and walk away from God.

JMHO,
Maria

But this is what the bible teaches. One cannot change this fact to suit oneself.

 

[Pastor_Robert]

Well well where do I begin to respond to all this

How sad it is to see that you have no assurance of going to heaven, no assurance that you are the object of God’s eternal love and the recipient of God’s saving grace.

Paul states clearly in Philippians 1v6 that ‘Having begun a good work in us He will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ’. Sounds like a very assuring thing to me that my salvation is all of grace

You can play your little multiple choice games with texts taken out of context and made pretexts for your false doctrine but that does not change the truth that whom God has foreknown He has also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of His Son. Romans 8v29ff is clear I think

It is so sad that you do not understand the true nature of saving faith nor enjoy the fruits of it either.

What is attractive to a lost sinner about a religion that offers them pray, do penance, try hard, do your best but you can never be sure of heaven?

Come unto me all you who labor and I will give you rest says the Lord

Oh that Christ might open your eyes to the truth of His eternal life.

Warmest regards

RB

 

[Church_Militant]

PR,
You don’t get it do you???
All the things that you say are errors WE see as errors in your beliefs. There is way too much scripture that readily supports our position for you to tell us that we are wrong. I mean… answer each of those posts up there. We have supplied our responses and they are valid scriptures. I don’t see my salvation in jeopardy simply because I fail to agree with your interpretation of a few Bible verses that came out of a schismatc Christian cult about 500 years ago.

You allege that we have no assurance, but we feel very strongly assured of our salvation as we obey the commands of Christ. Sola Fide doctrine does not date back to the early church at all, just because the Bible does and it uses Bible verses to support it. The fact that it was not believed by the early church fathers or has a preponderance of scriptural evidence as well as the teaching authority of the church that Jesus Himself founded, just means that there are not only Catholics but many evangelical non-Catholics who disgree with you concerning the assurance of salvation. (all of which has exactly zero to do with Sola Fide and is a discussion of OSAS/Eternal security…another topic alltogether).

Please feel free to defend Sola Fide. It’s just another non-Catholic error to us and your own statements such as…

How sad it is to see that you have no assurance of going to heaven, no assurance that you are the object of God’s eternal love and the recipient of God’s saving grace.

and

It is so sad that you do not understand the true nature of saving faith nor enjoy the fruits of it either.

What is attractive to a lost sinner about a religion that offers them pray, do penance, try hard, do your best but you can never be sure of heaven?

Oh that Christ might open your eyes to the truth of His eternal life.

show that you have only a very superficial understanding of Catholic teaching on Salvation. Thanks for the sympathy, but it’s misplaced.
Pax tecum,

 

[Lisa4Catholics]

Pastor Robert:

Well well where do I begin to respond to all this Sarcasm is not a virtuehttp://bestsmileys.com/thinking/2.gif

How sad it is to see that you have no assurance of going to heaven, no assurance that you are the object of God’s eternal love and the recipient of God’s saving grace. We are very aware of Gods love for us and very aware of His saving grace,we don’t presume to save ourselves,and do NOT take His goodness for granted and abuse His love,by judging ourslves worthy,we do not judge God does.

Paul states clearly in Philippians 1v6 that ‘Having begun a good work in us He will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ’. Sounds like a very assuring thing to me that my salvation is all of grace He also said to work out your salvation in fear and trembling,it doesn’t sound like Saint Paul is presumptious.

You can play your little multiple choice games with texts taken out of context and made pretexts for your false doctrine but that does not change the truth that whom God has foreknown He has also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of His Son. Romans 8v29ff is clear I think Once again your Christrian charity is underwhelming
http://bestsmileys.com/religous/3.gif
It is so sad that you do not understand the true nature of saving faith nor enjoy the fruits of it either. SO SAD YOU DO NOT UNDERSTAND HUMILITYhttp://bestsmileys.com/crying/5.gif

What is attractive to a lost sinner about a religion that offers them pray, do penance, try hard, do your best but you can never be sure of heaven? Trust in the Mercy and Love of God NOT ourselves.

Come unto me all you who labor and I will give you rest says the Lord Pick up your cross and follow me,do you remeber who said that?

Oh that Christ might open your eyes to the truth of His eternal life.
May Jesus teach you humility.God Bless
Warmest regards

RB

 

[antiaphrodite]

you go, lisa!!!:clapping:

 

[st_felicity]

Pastor Robert:

What is attractive to a lost sinner about a religion that offers them pray, do penance, try hard, do your best but you can never be sure of heaven?

I thought “worship” is for God alone–not for what we can get out of it. Even if God decided there was to be no heaven–shouldn’t He still be worshipped? Otherwise–if our “worship” focuses on ourselves and what is attractive and serves our wants/desires, doesn’t it become a sort-of self-idolatry rather than for God alone?

Pitying us for not “requiring” God to give us heaven (as assurance implies) ignores the “CONFIDENCE” I have that God will follow through on his promises to me–but, He didn’t have to make any promises in the first place and so I give him the RESPECT of using a “serving-Him” word, rather than a “serving-me” word.

ie:
serving Him word = CONFIDENCE in His promises (focus on HIM)

serving me word = ASSURANCE that I will go to heaven. (focus on ME)

 

[dennisknapp]

Pastor Robert,

“Bible” Christians claim that their Church is MORE like the early Church then say the Roman Catholic Church, correct? (And by early Church I mean 33 to 315 A.D.)

So, let’s see how this logic plays out, shall we.

1. Early Christians were more like the “Bible” (or in your case Reformed) Christians of today, than the Roman Catholic Church.
2. We have historical records of these early Christians by way of pagans, Jews and the early Christians themselves.
3. The historical records show what early Christians thought, believed, and practiced.
4. The historical records shows that the early Christians thought, believed, and practiced what is in line with Roman Catholic Teaching. (BTW, there is no evidence of sola fide, sola Scriptura, merely symbolic baptism and communion.)
5. Therefore, premise 1 is false.

Any thoughts?

Peace

 

[Subrosa]

Pastor Robert:

Well well where do I begin to respond to all this

Paul states clearly in Philippians 1v6 that ‘Having begun a good work in us He will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ’. Sounds like a very assuring thing to me that my salvation is all of grace

This is very true, Pastor. However, as it has been pointed out in these threads, if one should stray from God, one may find oneself in trouble. Paul makes this abundantly clear in 1 Corinthians - Chapter 3
14 If the work stands that someone built upon the foundation, that person will receive a wage. 15 But if someone’s work is burned up, that one will suffer loss; the person will be saved, but only as through fire. (Purgatory?)16 Do you not know that you are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? 17 If anyone destroys God’s temple, God will destroy that person; for the temple of God, which you are, is holy. 18 Let no one deceive himself. If any one among you considers himself wise in this age, let him become a fool so as to become wise. 19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness in the eyes of God, for it is written: “He catches the wise in their own ruses,” 20 and again: “The Lord knows the thoughts of the wise, that they are vain.”

You can play your little multiple choice games with texts taken out of context and made pretexts for your false doctrine but that does not change the truth that whom God has foreknown He has also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of His Son. Romans 8v29ff is clear I think

Quite intresting! This is what the Protestants have been doing for over 500 years. Have a look at it this way. The Catholic Church has been consistant in Her teachings since it’s inception by Christ. These teachings are substantially in agreement with the Eastern, Greek & other Orthodox, Syrian, Egyptian, Indian, Assyrian, and Coptic churches, all of which have thier origins and teachings established by Christ and the Apostles. The Protestants, an the other hand, simply run off and start a new church every time they are in disagreement. I’ve read on these postings that there are nearly 20,000 different Protestant denominations, each with it’s own take on the bible. Does God have one truth or 20,000 of them?

It is so sad that you do not understand the true nature of saving faith nor enjoy the fruits of it either.

Faith is certainly an essential part of Catholicism. I ask that the Holy Spirit guide me daily, as I am sure you also do .

What is attractive to a lost sinner about a religion that offers them pray, do penance, try hard, do your best but you can never be sure of heaven?

and

How sad it is to see that you have no assurance of going to heaven, no assurance that you are the object of God’s eternal love and the recipient of God’s saving grace.

It certainly keeps you on your toes. But, there are reassurances which are called the sacraments. They are: Penance, explicit to forgiveness of sin (James 5:16 - John 20:23); Initiation which includes Baptism, First Communion and Conformation (Matthew 28:19); Anointing the Sick (James 5:13-15, Mark 6:13); and of course, the Eucharist (John 6:54-56, Matthew 26:26-28) All of these sacraments were initiated by Christ to help us reach heaven.

Come unto me all you who labor and I will give you rest says the Lord

Did you just say that the ones who do works get to rest?

Oh that Christ might open your eyes to the truth of His eternal life

I agree in kind.

Warmest regards

Subrosa

 

[michaelgazin]

Subrosa:

Come unto me all you who labor and I will give you rest says the Lord

Did you just say that the ones who do works get to rest?

Indeed he did. But possibly labor just means intellectual assent http://bestsmileys.com/thinking/2.gif

I think Pastor Robert’s quote:

What is attractive to a lost sinner about a religion that offers them pray, do penance, try hard, do your best but you can never be sure of heaven?

makes it quite clear that the underlying reason for choosing a faith is its attractiveness.

 

[neophyte]

Pastor Robert,

So far we’ve seen nothing from you other than assertions that you’re right and we’re wrong, with absolutely NO systematic discussion in support of your view. You display no understanding of true Catholic doctrine, no interest in understanding it, and seem disinclined to provide any cogent rebuttal to any of our presentations of it.

Surely you can do better than this.

It is this exact lack of substance that led me to abandon Protestantism as the house of cards it is.

It’s lunchtime, I’m going to grab a bite and then spend time in Eucharistic Adoration praying a Rosary for you.