Sola Fides

[itsjustdave1988]

… trusting their eternal destiny to a sprinkling of water on their head.

Errrrrrrr…no. It is no more “trust in water” than the blind person trusted in mud to cure him at the hand of Jesus. On the contrary, it is more a trust in the miracles at the “hand of Jesus” and how he conveys his grace through mud, or water, or oil, or any other means. When Christ was baptized in water, the Holy Spirit came upon him. This foreshadowed the sacrament of Baptism. It is a sacrament (Latin for oath, sacramentum). It is both a promise and a prayer that the people of God make in obedience to God. We believe that our prayer is answered and the recipient is regenerated, not by the power of water, but by the power of God, the one who answers our prayer.

The sacraments are not acts of magic. The are both a prayer for regeneration and a promise or oath to Him who regenerates. Because the prayer is made with matter, form, and intent in accord with apostolic teaching, this does not make it magical. On the contrary, we understand it as a miracle, as do Orthodox and Protestant Christians.

You believe in the power of prayer don’t you? You believe that God walks with us only when we, in faith, obey, don’t you?

Calvinist theologian C.H. Spurgeon puts it…

“Have I that faith which leads me to obey my God?—for obedience, if it be of the kind we are speaking of, is faith in action—faith walking with God” (C.H. Spurgeon, Sermon called “Obedience of Faith,” August 21, 1890)

Sacraments, for Cathlicism, is faith in action.

C.H. Spurgeon continues…

If our faith…lacks the fruit of obedience, it will leave us among the “dogs” who are “'without.” The ***faith that makes us obey is alone the faith which marks the children of God. ***It is better to have the faith that obeys than the faith which moves mountains. … If thou believest in the living God unto eternal life, thou wilt be quick to do thy Lord’s bidding, even as a maid hearkens to her mistress. Thou wilt not be as the horse, which needs whip and spur; thy love will do more for thee than compulsion could do for slaves. Thou wilt have wings to thy heels to hasten thee along the way of obedience. … He would have us obey him with the heart, and that will lead us, not merely to regard a few pleasing commands, but to have respect unto all his will. … Alas! dear friends, we have so much talk, and so little obedience! The religion of mere brain and jaw does not amount to much. We want the religion of hands and feet. (ibid.)

From my studies and experience, Catholicism is truly a religion of hands and feet!!

Finally, from C.H. Spurgeon…

Those who practice the obedience of faith look for the reward hereafter, and set the greatest store by it… They know the words, “No cross, no crown;” and they recognise the truth that, if there is no obedience here, there will be no reward hereafter…

The obedience which faith produces must be continuous… Providence is God’s business, obedience is ours. What comes out of our life’s course must remain with the Lord; to obey is our sole concern. We can win “Well done, good and faithful servant”: to be a successful servant is not in our power, and we shall not be held responsible for it. Our greatest risk is over when we obey. God makes faith and obedience the way of safety…Obedience may appear difficult, and it may bring with it sacrifice; but, after all, it is the nearest and the best road…He who through the Holy Spirit, is always believingly obedient, has chosen the good part.

… ***this is a kind of life which will bring communion with God…If we transgress against him, we shall soon be in trouble; but a holy walk—the walk described by my text as faith working obedience—is heaven beneath the stars. God comes down to walk with men who obey. If they walk with him, he walks with them. The Lord can only have fellowship with his servants as they obey. Obedience is heaven in us, and it is the preface of our being in heaven. Obedient faith is the way to eternal life—nay, it is eternal life revealing itself. ***(ibid.)

"The Lord can only have fellowship with his servants as they obey." Sounds Catholic!!!

 

[Sherlock]

Sooner4Christ,

You wrote, “I have an Evangelical friend as well, who goes to Church and practices his faith as an Evangelical. He is obviously the opposite, and he would suggest that she isn’t truly saved, because that is not “TRUE” faith.”

And that points out one of the weaknesses of Protestantism: she would respond that your friend has his opinion and is welcome to it, but who is he to say? She believes in Jesus—and she’s been told that’s enough.

You wrote, “Is it me or is “FAITH ALONE” in the first sense that I mentioned, which seems like your friend suggests, a doctrine of the devil.”

I agree. Your comment reminds me of something I heard said by Greg Popchak on his radio show: that “niceness” was Satan’s counterfeit of Love (or words to that effect). His point was that “niceness” never confronts—a “nice” person doesn’t speak truth when the other person is going astray…and so on. I think “being nice” is what many Americans mistakenly think that Jesus commanded us to be.

 

[Sherlock]

Robert in SD,

You wrote, “This is an excellent example of the dangers that arise from believing in the doctrines of OSAS and Sola Fide. I am sure your friend is very nice, but is she on a path that will sustain her in grace?”

No. I think her case exemplifies the kind of complacent, comfortable slide into a kind of “practical atheism”—meaning that there is nothing in her life to indicate that’s she’s a Christian: she could be a nice atheist and no one could discern the difference (at least until she was asked). What a contrast with the early Christians! Their example always reminds me that if I am ever accused of being a Catholic, I want there to be LOTS and LOTS of evidence to convict me! The problem with my friend is (and I do see this as the result of the OSAS and Sola Fide) that she simply sees no reason to exert herself to be anything more than what she is. She went to a “Fundamentals of Catholicism” course with me, taught by my very excellent pastor, and she liked what she heard. But she feels no particular need to convert—Catholicism would demand more of her than her Protestant faith has, and so why not stay Protestant? It’s easier!

I suppose my frustration is showing…

 

[javelin]

Sooner4Christ,

Sooner4Christ:

Does anybody really practice Faith Alone, or is this really a semantics issue that protestants and catholics are arguing about.

For the most part, I think you are correct. I am in a small group where I am the only Cathlic, with one “institutional” protestant evangelical, and the rest Christians with little doctrinal training. Our latest study (my first with them, actaully) turned to the topic of the possibility of salvation for those who are not professed Christians. It turned out to be a very interesting discussion because although the study guide (Protestant source) clearly wanted to move people to the conclusion that salvation was not possible for people who do not openly profess faith in Jesus Christ, the feeling of most people in the group, save the one “institutional” protestant, was much more in keeping with the Catholic position.

The pertinent part to our discussion here is that throughout the small group’s discussion – a discussion primarily among protestants – one would never guess that they believed that only a profession of faith was necessary unto salvation, or that salvation was assured. They constantly said things like “well, if you don’t act on faith…” and “if you’re not living like a Christian…” to question a person’s salvation, and even teetered on the edge of the heresy that people who have never heard of Christ might be able to work their way to heaven. I was thankful that I could help point out that heresy and caution the direction of the discussion at that point!

So, in a practical sense, unless a protestant has been thoroughly indoctrinated with Sola Fide, it doesn’t seem that the typical rank-and-file really believe like the woman mentioned above who has seen no conversion of her life to Christ. They would generally agree that she is not on the path to salvation.

Peace,
javelin

 

[Chris_G]

Pastor Robert:

Again it staggers me how blind you seem to be regarding the true nature of saving faith and its fruit. You can quote long chapters of scripture but you do not understand them.

It staggers me to how you look at your own personal interpretation and then equate it to Gods word.

True saving faith produces a life of obedience in a sinner. Historical Reformed theology has always taught this but alas you do not seem to either realize this or understand it.

Grace brings a person who was dead in sin to life, it does not then depart in the future and leave them to eternal death. Ephesians 2 is clear on this.

I am glad that the glorious grace of God is all powerful and does complete what it begins, not against a person’s will nor apart from it but by renewing it.

It is obvous you came here to preach your own personal interpretation, not to learn.

I would a terrible thing to think that I’m saved today but might be lost tomorrow.

And yet I remember a Saint that told us to "work out your salvation with fear and trembling"

 

[piety101]

I believe the moderator should close this topic, because Pastor Robert has either been banned or is no longer responding to our posts at all. Let’s move on to something else please.

 

[Glenn_Lego]

Thal59:

Pastor Robert,

It is nice for a change to hear a Protestant minister say such things. To a Catholic, the more we grow in our faith, and certainly the more we receive Christ through the Eucharist, the more He abides in us. Now if the perfect spirit of Christ comes in contact with the imperfect spirit of a man or woman, then three things may result:

1. No discernable change to either spirit.
2. The imperfect spirit of the man taints or lessens the perfection of Christ.
3. The perfect spirit of Christ ennobles or “improves” the spirit of the man.

I believe in the third scenario as no man can in any way reduce God’s perfect essence; nor could it be possible for the communion of the man and God to result in a maintaining of the status quo.

By nature, we are selfish creatures. We are always more concerned with ourselves more than anyone else, so charity is not normal to fallen man’s nature. But Jesus is the fountain of all love, and love is to suffer and sacrifice for others. We are to love God first, (suffer and sacrifice for Him) and then act the same way to others, just as Christ suffered His passion and sacrificed His life on the cross for all men. If one is truly in the faith, and if one’s faith and devotion to the Lord has been accepted by Him, ( John 2:23-25) then our ennobled spirits, improved by that contact with the Spirit will take on Christ-like qualities; the most evident of which is suffering and sacrificing for others… i.e. good works of charity to others. If we have not charity, or good works, we do not have the Spirit.

Unfortunately, Pastor Robert, Protestantism, a man-made approach to Christianity, does as one would suspect man would do to a sometimes difficult philosophy of self-denial, suffering, and sacrificing. It scrubs it clean of all such notions and makes it a “day off with pay” deal. Examine the more common Protestant practices and beliefs and you will see an obvious attempt to make salvation as easy and inexpensive as possible…

A. The bread and wine are symbolic. (Accept it as the body and blood of Christ and commit to a sacred covenant oath to Him? Too demanding.)
B. Confess one’s sins to a minister of the Lord. (Sorry, that would require a bit of humility.)
C. Charity and good works as an integral part of one’s faith. (That means spending my time, effort, and even money on someone I don’t even know. No thanks.)
D. Penance. (More suffering and sacrificing… doesn’t appeal to me.)
E. Purgatory. (Be responsible and accountable for my actions on earth? Burn away my sins (ouch), endure in patient suffering the full reception of sanctifying grace? (There’s got to be an easier way!)

And then there comes Protestantism. Just have faith, and faith alone, in the Lord’s promises and you will be saved and receive eternal bliss and heavenly reward. Tah-Dah!

No suffering, no sacrificing, no enduring, no humility, no inconvenience, no self-denial = no love, no good works, no faith; which equals no salvation.

Thal59

Given the above scenario it is no wonder that Protestantism is seemingly so popular compared to Catholicism. I’m a former Protestant having converted to the Catholic faith in 2002, so I’ve been there and done that, but I had no idea that the above was the logical conclusion of my previous manner of faith. Glenn

 

[Des]

neophyte:

Whether or not the good Pastor eventually comes around or not, in all charity perhaps you could delete those posts and repost them with answer C deleted.

C is a definite possibility, however there should have been a D choice too.

D. I have yet recieve God’s Graces to show me this truth.

 

[Robert_in_SD]

Sherlock:

Robert in SD,

You wrote, “This is an excellent example of the dangers that arise from believing in the doctrines of OSAS and Sola Fide. I am sure your friend is very nice, but is she on a path that will sustain her in grace?”

No. I think her case exemplifies the kind of complacent, comfortable slide into a kind of “practical atheism”—meaning that there is nothing in her life to indicate that’s she’s a Christian: she could be a nice atheist and no one could discern the difference (at least until she was asked). What a contrast with the early Christians! Their example always reminds me that if I am ever accused of being a Catholic, I want there to be LOTS and LOTS of evidence to convict me! The problem with my friend is (and I do see this as the result of the OSAS and Sola Fide) that she simply sees no reason to exert herself to be anything more than what she is. She went to a “Fundamentals of Catholicism” course with me, taught by my very excellent pastor, and she liked what she heard. But she feels no particular need to convert—Catholicism would demand more of her than her Protestant faith has, and so why not stay Protestant? It’s easier!

I suppose my frustration is showing…

Hello Sherlock;

You’ve put your finger on the danger I was trying to articulate in my prior post. The danger is an attitude of complacency arising from a false sense of assured salvation.

I like your term “practical atheism.” It accurately describes such a person whose spirituality consists of nothing but “dead” faith, without any good works. I’m sure she is a nice “practical atheist”
though.

Your frustration only betrays your concern for your friend. Best of luck.

 

[2heartsaz1]

It seems that our first concern in discussing doctrine should stick to explaining one’s basis for authority. Sola Scriptura should be at the forefront and before any additional issues, i.e. baptismal regeneration, can be addressed adequately, the focus of S.S or Scripture,Tradition and Magisterium need to be dealt with.

However, the points you all clarified and highlighted appear to have addressed head on Pastor Bob’s queries, whether he feels it or not, in all honesty and with proper respect to the Word of God in Sacred Scripture.

Amazing how Catholics know and quote Scripture!
( ) ( )
+
0
What a new concept to some.

Christ’s peace,
D in Az

 

[Sooner4Christ]

2heartsaz1:

…However, the points you all clarified and highlighted appear to have addressed head on Pastor Bob’s queries, whether he feels it or not, in all honesty and with proper respect to the Word of God in Sacred Scripture.

Amazing how Catholics know and quote Scripture!
( ) ( )
+
0
What a new concept to some.

Christ’s peace,
D in Az

I remember as a young teenager my Baptist friend bringing me to Wednesday Church at his Baptist Church and them reading scriptures and asking each other what a particular scripture means. I was young at the time, but even then… I was thinking by what authority can they come to an agreement of what this scripture really means. (Of course the protestant answer is “BY THE HOLY GHOST”)

I never thought of my Catholic background while thinking this… but to me it was just logical.

So after being to a few of those and growing up… I read my bible and my Father bought me the Catechism of the Catholic Church… WOW it shed some light…

I don’t memorize scripture, and that very well might be my fault, however I thought it was important to understand the background of each book in the bible, in order to read the bible in context.

 

[2heartsaz1]

Sooner,
thanks for sharing your insights. What you thought was logical .You heard the Holy Ghost speaking, also referred to as Wisdom ( in Sacred Scripture), to you.

The many different interpretations of God’s holy Word - that those differences are the voice**s **of the Holy Ghost is an oxymoron because there is only One Holy Ghost, a unified person within the Holy Trinity, united to the Father and Son.

Truth is not something to one person and a different something to another.

Truth is not a chameleon. Truth is a Person.
Jesus Christ is the same today, yesterday and forever.

God bless,
D