Sola gratia,sola fide sola Christos

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Hi, Scylla,

quote: Scylla
I know many evangelicals, was one myself, there is a joy there, a justifiableness so to speak.Sola Fide can give you that feeling. I feel as it is a very superficial type of faith, I am just speaking of my own experience though. (Calvary Chapel)
My objection is:

When a faith becomes so “profound” that it
loses simplicity, then I have a* major* problem.
Simplicity and “superficiality” are disjoint sets,
in my experience.

Thanks for conveying your own experience,

Best regards,
reen12
 
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reen12:
Hi, Scylla,

quote: Scylla
My objection is:

When a faith becomes so “profound” that it
loses simplicity, then I have a* major* problem.
Simplicity and “superficiality” are disjoint sets,
in my experience.

Thanks for conveying your own experience,

Best regards,
reen12
My Dear Reen12,
You know me (I think).
Let me point out that there is really nothing “simple” about real live New Testament Christianity. Consider the complexity of it’s doctrines (the things that we believe) like the Trinity, the incarnation of Christ, the resurrection, and even the very concept of God coming to Earth to die for the sins of His own errant creations. I have discovered that it is really the complexity of a huge and very beautiful diamond that one may spend one’s entire life (and eternity as well I suspect) exploring. The very nature of God Himself is beyond our full comprehension and when you kneel down before Him in worship and prayer you should begin to get a vison of just who we are talking to and who He is and who we are.

Embracing a simplicity of faith because it is “simple” is not a realistic Christianity (IMO). I doubt that the apostles themselves were ever able to offer us a fully comprehensive statement of all that Jesus really entails. Maybe that’s why there are 73 inspired books and tons of ECF writings to go along with them. There are truths…that can be grasped and understood to some degree, but the ramifications of these truths is complex and reaches into every aspect of our lives now and forever.

The only simple aspect of Christianity is the word “Amen”, and even that is complex in its ramifications for each of us. I only hope that this makes some sense.
Pax tecum,
 
I agree that superficiality and simplicity are disjoint sets.
Maybe I should have put a paragraph break between my two sentences there. With a little better explanation of this.

Simplicity is my desire in faith\life but the diversity of people change this, it is a natural result of 2000 years.

The Catholic faith is simple, it has been more simple in the past but as the faith developed it had to grow. (developement of doctrine) But in addition to this there have been so many thousands of people coming up with their own ideas of the faith the Church has had to defend the truth. Defending the truth means definition of beliefs. This constant attack leads to a very full understanding, this doesn’t mean that you have to understand the full reasons for anything Catholic, but the Catholic Church is bound to give a reason for every objection.

You can be a Catholic and just have a very simple faith, unfortunately in this country there is a pretty good chance you will be questioned about your faith at least once in life. Without the answers then you would be subject to any evangelist coming along with a clever arguement.

Simplicity, then if dismissing differences in doctrine leads to relativism, there is no real truth and the truth is what you believe.

Superficiality is something I really try to discern, I want to be careful not to see everything through our normal everyday eyes.

Superficiality is what our culture is all about and what many people use to judge their faith, not on ultimate truth. This can lead to a have it your way theology, which fits in real well these days and as our western culture spreads it will fit in even more everywhere else. If I am in a Church where most everyone are doing well financially does that indicate a flourishing faith community? Or if everyone is happy and having a great time in a certain Church? This kinda ties into another thread on this forum, here forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=56464

I am not saying we should be somber and poor, but I think it is important to remember that most the people who followed Christ in the New Testament gave up all they had to follow Him. They rejoiced in their faith, but also had some pretty rough times.

In Christ
Scylla

Maybe I should elaborate more on how Sola Fide contributes to this, but later as my wife is calling me.
 
Church Militant and scylla,

I appreciate both of your reflections on my post above.

scylla, I could have presented the case that you

have presented…I did, for over 40 years. At age

12, in 1958, I presented a talk for the Catholic Evidence

Guild that was so impressive, my sister remembers

and refers to it, even today. fact.] It also

constitued a problem.

One of the nuns, who I have always thought the world of,

encouraged me to read The Seven Storey Mountain at age 13 !

I didn’t, but that ought to give you a clue to where

my teachers thought I was at, at age 13.

At age 18, another nun gave me Fr. Adrian van Kaam’s

book on religion and psychology to read. [Van Kaam

was/is? a psychiatrist, I believe.] At 18 !

So, having studied philosophy and theology in

college, one could hardly make the case that

I don’t *understand *the Catholic faith. And in those

days, the faith was presented in a rigorous

fashion: no felt banners; Jesus loves me posters,

or “It’s all a bright and happy world” catechesis.

If you’ll bear with me:

I took a break from the forum, after I posted the

above, and watched a few Scooby Doo cartoons.

I recalled a conversation that I had had with

a person a year younger than I.

We both agreed that those under age 54 haven’t

got a* clue* as to what we’re talking about, and

that we have more in common with people 20

years our senior, than 5 years our junior.

**That’s how fast the world changed,

boys and girls**.

If you’re younger than age 55, you were catechized

differently - but you have no way to *know *that,

because you were not treated to the catechesis

that my contempories were. {And you are not

my “contemporary” if you are under age 55, {I’m 59}

not in any true sense of the word. Our worlds were

not “contemporaneous.” There is a vast abysss,

separating us. [Converts to the faith, my age and

older, also cannot identify with 1950’s “catechesis.”]

That catechesis did me great damage, spiritually

and psychologically. Period. It has haunted me

for 47 years.

It haunts me no more. I’ve been able to express

my great anger and achieve peace.

That’s why I can say: Keep the faith.

You have not been injured as I was injured.

I am positively phobic toward the whole enterprise.

I’m not going todefend the evangelical position.

I can’t. I’m too well trained in Catholic thought.

But it is a matter of the heart, with me, not the

mind. And that heart was injured, almost irreparably,

in matters religious, at a time when I could not

mount a protest, because I had neither the psychological

defenses or the theology that would come later in time.

I was so ill, psychologically, to begin with, even
as a 10 year old. [a lot of it is genetic.] The
&%%*) catechesis nearly finished me off.

[constant talk of hell; stressing sin, constantly-
fleeting reference to ‘mercy,’ little reference to
scripture [except this swell little book, with
black and white etchings, of the Old Testament.]
It left me a quivering wreck of a human being.
And the sermons! After one of them, my face
was as white as a sheet, my body as stiff as
a board. And I was 8 years old .

Has that been your experiece? I doubt it.

I may be suspended.
But, I’ve had my say, and conveyed why I hold
the postion I hold.

reen12
As a matter of fact, I think I’ll suspend myself,
and make this my last post. 👋
 
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reen12:
As a matter of fact, I think I’ll suspend myself,
and make this my last post. 👋
Don’t do it reen! Your insights are an important contribution to this forum. :yup:
 
Please don’t leave reen, I read your post and it does make me think. Give me a little bit to digest what you posted. I read it quickly and see I need to really contemplate it as I do come from a different Catechetical background.(SP?) I would like to talk about that, if it doesn’t bother you too much.

I have seen other people like you out there, I think about your age and I would like to talk to you, but as I am short on time at this moment, please hang in there and I will respond.

God Bless
Scylla
 
I pray that you can make peace with your upbringing in the Catholic faith.

Again, please don’t leave as you provide a valuable contribution to this forum.

This looks like a sensitive subject for you that I probably can’t understand, so I wont bother you about it.
Since I am not of your age group, I wont try and relate to your experiences as mine were significantly different.

If you would like I can send you a book on this, not to preach to you or anything, this book is about other people who have experienced that era of the Catholic Church.

I grew up about 15-20 years later in a period of change where we had several different views of the Church coming together. This led to me leaving the Church for probably other reasons, but I don’t want to hijack this thread so if you want we can start another, or feel free to PM me.

God Bless
Scylla

(End Hijack)
 
Hi Reen! I don’t want to add to the distraction from the point of this post any more than I need to. My mom is from your era and she came from a big Irish Catholic family. Just from listening to her siblings and cousins talk about their experiences with Catholic education, they have come away with a sense of humor about the nuns, the fear of hell, etc. I’m sad for you that you have so much inner turmoil in your life. I said it before but I’ll remind you “We love you Reen!” :love:

I was watching Fr. Richard Foley on EWTN last night and he was talking about “peace” in the Bible. He said “the word ‘peace’ is spangled across the pages like stars.” This “peace” is not the watered-down version that we use in modern vernacular today. It’s the kind of peace that Jesus brings us that keeps our minds and our hearts free from anxiety, fear and confusion. It gives us the gift of inner tranquillity. I’ll pray for you that you will receive this most special gift from Christ. He wants us all to be “at peace”.
 
By the way, if you don’t already, I suggest watching EWTN sometimes. It’s very uplifting! That’s not to say that Scooby Doo isn’t fun too! 😉
 
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