Sola Sciptura Question

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Today while debating a Protestant, I realize that everything that he asked me, I had to defend with Bible verses.

Everything that the Church teaches is based off of the Bible, and can be supported, if not outright stated in the Bible. I know the Church does not abide by Sola Sciptura, but I am wondering what to call what we do stand by. Everything the Church teaches has Biblical background, but there are other forms of teachings, other than Scripture. What is this called?
 
It is Sacred Scripture, Sacred Tradition, and the teaching authority of the Magisterium that make up the deposit of faith for Catholics. Hope that helps 😉
 
Today while debating a Protestant, I realize that everything that he asked me, I had to defend with Bible verses.

Everything that the Church teaches is based off of the Bible, and can be supported, if not outright stated in the Bible. I know the Church does not abide by Sola Sciptura, but I am wondering what to call what we do stand by. Everything the Church teaches has Biblical background, but there are other forms of teachings, other than Scripture. What is this called?
The funny thing is, when you look at it, Sacred Scripture is a part of Sacred Tradition. Who says which books are legitimate? Uh, the Church. Where is that in Scripture? Uh, it isn’t?

And another final point, for arguing with your friend. Where is Scripture does it say that our knowledge comes from Scripture alone? A hint: it doesn’t.
 
Technically it is called the Sacred Deposit of the Faith:
Catechism of the Catholic Church
Paragraph 84 - "The apostles entrusted the ‘Sacred deposit’ of the faith (the depositum fidei), contained in Sacred Scripture and Tradition, to the whole of the Church.
Paragraph 96 - “What Christ entrusted to the apostles, they in turn handed on by their preaching and writing, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, to all generations, until Christ returns in glory.”
Paragraph 97 - “Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture make up a single sacred deposit of the Word of God, in which, as in a mirror, the pilgrim Church contemplates God, the source of all her riches.”
rocketrob
 
Catholics are not agressive at attacking Protestants, as they are in attacking Catholics and Catholicism.

There are issues you could bring up to undercut protestantism, to put your friend not merely on the defensive, but to challenge him/her to shake off the slogans and scripts that protestants have for evangelizing Catholics.

For example, how does your friend rationalize his faith, when there are some thirty- or forty-thousand denominations in the U.S. alone? How does he know that he’s in the right place?

Protestants take the simplistic logic that if they can find one fault with the Catholic faith, then it’s wrong, it’s a “false gospel” as some of them would say.

Does your friend deny that child sexual abuse exists in many protestant denominations?

Any time we look long enough, these denominations all claim to be “Bible-believing” and otherwise base their religious practice on the Bible. But, how can that be true, when they all believe such different things?

If they say that the Bible is their only authority, then what? That’s all they do on Sundays is open the Bible, read it, close it and go home? There’s no sermon? Oh,there is? What is the purpose of the sermon – just a man’s interpretation of the Bible – if they believe in the authority of the Bible alone?

Certainly, most of us Catholics are challenged to come to grips with a book like the Catechism, which is so chocked full of things that we are supposed to believe, not to mention trying to apply all that to our lives. I haven’t read it all, by a long shot. But, I bet there’s no section that directly advises you how to respond to your friend. You have to take what’s there and try to package it for your friend.

That’s called “evangelization” and that’s what we’re supposed to be doing in the world.

And, we’re just going to have to wade into the issues that have brainwashed people to accept their own false gospels. We must do it in love, defending what we believe, but also in pointing out what is wrong with their beliefs. They feel that is a valid tactic to try to save us, we should take that challenge and realize the spiritual battle that we are in.
 
I have always taken the following approach:

Claim: The Bible, and only the Bible, is the sole authority and source of God’s word.

Queries that MUST be answered to validate the sola scriptura claim:

A. Did the Bible come to man with a table of contents? The answer is no. But if he says that it did (and I have NEVER come across someone who says that it did), ask:

(i) when was the table of contents written? (ask for a specific date)

(ii) who wrote the table of contents? (ask for a specific name)

(iii) how could a table of contents be prepared before all of the books, particularly the New Testament, were written?

B. Considering the Bible specifically states that Christ taught the Apostles many things that were not recorded in the Bible:

(i) how can they say that ONLY the Bible is the source of God’s/Jesus’s teachings?

(ii) how did Jesus and the Apostles teach “the Bible” before 100 AD, when the last book of the Bible was not written until St. John did so around 100 AD (some scholars claim some epistles were written after Revelation, but for the purpose of these question, I assumed that Revelation was written last) while exiled on the Island of Patmos?

C. It is taken for granted that we actually have a Bible. Where does it state that God (other than the 10 Commandments, which came directly from him based on a literal reading of the relevant OT verses) or Jesus, or both, told ANYONE to write down what they taught so that there even be something that came to be known as the Bible?

D. Who chose the books to be considered part of the Bible? (ask for a specific date and person(s))

(i) If he names someone and a date, ask, by what authority, did that person have to compile numerous, independently written manuscripts, put them together, and say WITH AUTHORITY “this is the complete Bible”?

Remember, he MUST name someone in the Bible as stating “these books should be in the Bible” (or words to that effect), as sola scriptura, by defintion, means that the Bible is the only means of “hearing” God’s word. Of course, he cannot do so because a book cannot authenticate itself. A book is inanimate, and as such, cannot “proclaim” which books it should consist of, and state those books are the word of God, when, as mentioned above, all books were not written at the same time.

E. As each book of the Bible was written, especially the NT, who decided, upon the completion of each book that we use today as the NT, “that book that was just finished was inspired by the Holy Spirit and thus should be considered God’s word”? (ask for the name of that person(s) and the date(s) that decision was made).

The focus here is not on the entire Bible itself - the focus is on EACH book of the Bible, especially the NT, as it was being written while the Apostles lived and died.

E. Who determined how to interpret certain passages as what God intended their meaning to be? (as for a specific person(s))

(i) As an example, St. John describes in his Gospel the most complete accounting of the Last Supper. Three lines of “teaching” have resulted from what Christ did:

(a) during the Consecration, Jesus turned the bread and wine completely into his body and blood, so that nothing remained of the former bread and wine except what philosphers call “accidents” (meaning, strictly for the sake of appearance, the bread and wine looked and tasted like bread and wine, but they were substantively Christ’ body and blood). This dogma, known as transubstantiation, is taught by the Catholic and Orthodox faiths.

(b) during the Consecration, Jesus turned the bread and wine into his body and blood, but it was changed so that the result was the presence of break, wine, body, and blood. Although “accidents” were present for the body and blood part of the meal, but substantively, the substances of bread and wine also remained. This teaching, known as consubstantiation, is taught by the Anglican/Episcopal Church (and perhaps a few others - I don’t know who).

(c) during the Consecration, NOTHING occurred. Jesus was speaking completely in a figurative sense and he and his Apostles merely shared a last Passover meal together before he was to be killed. This teaching has no “consensus name” as far as I know. Having a wife who was a former Southern Baptist but converted when she realized the error of her ways 🙂 ), I heard some members of her former church calling it simply “The Lord’s Last Supper”. It consists of baked bread and grape juice (no kidding - I am serious), they pass it out like our ushers collect money, except their “elders” go around the church with large plates and pass those down the pews for each person to grap a small paper cup of bread and grape juice. Before being distributed, it was set up on a simple table where the words “Do this in Remembrance of Me” are written on the front panel of the table.

Now, there is no other alternative. What happens MUST be one of the above: total conversion, partial conversion, no conversion.

As the text was obviously subject to different interpretations, who decides which interpretation is accurate and who gave that person the authority to teach his interpretation as accurate. Ask for name(s) and date(s) and remember that the answers to these two question MUST come from the Bible, as it is the SOLE source for God’s authority.

Most non-Catholics give up after A.

I hope this helps. When I put this together long ago, I started with a much larger collection of question, and then pared it down as time went by, realizing that in some instances, I could ask just one question and seek answers to different things without have to also ask different questions.
 
Today while debating a Protestant, I realize that everything that he asked me, I had to defend with Bible verses.
I’d read Romans 14 together first. It’s truly amazing how some Christians can hurt each other. If you are both acting in conscience then neither of you have anything to defend.
 
inocente,

I believe, based on the way you wrote, that you are a sincere person who does not engage in ad hominem attacks.

But from a Catholic’s point of view, many of us are just plain tired of the abuse (and it is abuse) and lies that people spread about our faith. I am sick to death of having to explain that we don’t worship statues, that we don’t worship Mary, that we are not cannibals, that we do not believe Christ’s Passion ultimately saved mankind, and on and on and on . . .

It never stops.

And the troubling and frustrating part is that THEY want us to defend what WE believe, yet they do not seem to think they need to defend that they believe.

I mentioned in my post above that my wife was a former Southern Baptist who converted (on her own - I don’t believe in prosthelytizing family; I will answer questions and point out certain things, but they are adults and that decision has to ultimately be their choice) to Catholicism. I got into a “discussion” with several of her family and friends, and they ganged up on me thinking I was a “Catholic who never reads the bible”.

The saddest thing is that none of them believed that the Southern Baptist church did not exist prior to the US Civil War. Now this is a church that is OFFICIALLY segregated to this day - they said “they have their church and we have our church”.

And yet I, a Catholic, was asked to defend my faith . . . 😦
 
I’d read Romans 14 together first. It’s truly amazing how some Christians can hurt each other. If you are both acting in conscience then neither of you have anything to defend.
I believe as you do, that Christian division and attacking each other has done more harm to the faith than any persecution against the church ever has.

That being said, try sitting on our side of the fence some time. Being catholic is like being issued a bullseye. Some days it seems like everyone that you tell you’re catholic wants to take a piece out of you.
 
Today while debating a Protestant, I realize that everything that he asked me, I had to defend with Bible verses.

Everything that the Church teaches is based off of the Bible, and can be supported, if not outright stated in the Bible. I know the Church does not abide by Sola Sciptura, but I am wondering what to call what we do stand by. Everything the Church teaches has Biblical background, but there are other forms of teachings, other than Scripture. What is this called?
The Church is our authority-she’s “the pillar and foundation of truth”, according to 1 Timothy 3:15 If they ask how we know this, ask how they know that Scripture is authoritative.
 
I’d read Romans 14 together first. It’s truly amazing how some Christians can hurt each other. If you are both acting in conscience then neither of you have anything to defend.
I agree, that is why I do not attack at all. I simply explain my position, and why I have that position. In fact, over the Summer I have been visiting various parishes, to learn about their views. I don’t want to fight, I wish to learn, and respect the views of others, but defend my own.

To the people telling me how to debate a person using the Sola Scriptura argument, I appreciate it, but I know how to use arguments for my own cases. He was wondering what Catholics teach as apposed to Sola Scriptura, and I couldn’t think of the word.
 
He was wondering what Catholics teach as apposed to Sola Scriptura, and I couldn’t think of the word.
I’d just tell him we call it “Sola Spiritu Sanctu” and let him figure out that it means that, just like the bible says, the church is guided by the Holy Spirit, who will protect it and lead it into all truth.
 
To the people telling me how to debate a person using the Sola Scriptura argument, I appreciate it, but I know how to use arguments for my own cases. He was wondering what Catholics teach as apposed to Sola Scriptura, and I couldn’t think of the word.
Redratfish,
Hopefully you saw my post (#4) which quoted the Catechism. The Catholic Church teaches in reality that the Word of God was in fact Jesus Christ. God’s Word is revealed by various sources: 1.) The written form of Sacred Scripture and 2.) The oral teaching transmitted by Christ Himself to the Apostles (Holy Tradition), which is preserved and transmitted through the Holy Spirit to the successors of the Apostles, the bishops of the Church.

These concepts are beautifully explained in the Catechism in Part 1, Section 1, Chapter 2, Article 2 entitled “The Transmission of Divine Revelation:” usccb.org/catechism/text/pt1sect1chpt2.shtml#art2

rocketrob
 
But from a Catholic’s point of view, many of us are just plain tired of the abuse (and it is abuse) and lies that people spread about our faith. I am sick to death of having to explain that we don’t worship statues, that we don’t worship Mary, that we are not cannibals, that we do not believe Christ’s Passion ultimately saved mankind, and on and on and on . . .

The saddest thing is that none of them believed that the Southern Baptist church did not exist prior to the US Civil War. Now this is a church that is OFFICIALLY segregated to this day - they said “they have their church and we have our church”.
What can I say? Anyone who would be part of a segregated church has not even reached first base in understanding Christ, and anyone who believes that a Catholic is a cannibal is on another planet.

I’m not sure that arguing with fundamentalists of any breed (religion, politics, etc.) does anything but polarize. But get them to sign up to CAF and try it on with me 🙂 (just kidding - I’d get banned after a couple of posts).
 
I’d read Romans 14 together first. It’s truly amazing how some Christians can hurt each other. If you are both acting in conscience then neither of you have anything to defend.
Romans 14 is not saying that if someone is believing in an error such as sola scriptura or faith alone or once saved always saved we should look the other way.
Paul is speaking about new Jewish converts that wanted to hold on to the Jewish dietary laws and the Jewish festivals. He was saying to the Gentile and other Jewish Christians to welcome them into the Church and not have disputes with them because of their desire to hold on to their Jewish roots. Do not have disputes with them because they are sill “weak in faith.”
Paul himself condemns the more radical Jewish Christians for preaching another gospel saying that circumcision was still required ( Galatians 1:6-9).
As Catholics were are required as disciples of Christ to correct our separated brothers for believing and teaching another gospel.
 
Paul is speaking about new Jewish converts that wanted to hold on to the Jewish dietary laws and the Jewish festivals.
There’s another interesting interpretation, but I don’t know if it’s true. The idea is that the Roman church huddled together as a community. When it was the turn of the “strong” to go to market, they bought meat that had been sacrificed to Venus or another false god. It was wholesome and cheap, having already served its purpose, but the “weak” got upset when they found out. Some because of dietary laws but others because until recently they used to worship those gods. In quelling the dispute, Paul saw the big picture, including the sabbath, etc.

Whatever, Paul uses spectacular logic to judge both sides right, the key being Rom 14:8 - “If we live, we live to the Lord; and if we die, we die to the Lord. So, whether we live or die, we belong to the Lord.”
As Catholics were are required as disciples of Christ to correct our separated brothers for believing and teaching another gospel.
Paul’s point is that we should be careful about judging each other when we belong to the Lord, but of course, please correct anyone who doesn’t believe the gospel as preached by Paul. 😛
 
Being catholic is like being issued a bullseye. Some days it seems like everyone that you tell you’re catholic wants to take a piece out of you.
The reason why Catholicism is attacked is because Protestants need for Catholics to be wrong in order for themselves to be right. It’s almost as if Protestantism’s reason for existence is to show Catholicism wrong! Because if Catholics are right,there is no need for Protestants to exist. Therefore, in order to justify their existence, they are continually looking for ways to denigrate Catholicism: it is built into their blood. Some of their denigrations are pretty ridiculous, like the one that Catholics don’t believe in the Resurrection because the crucifix has Jesus is still on the cross. It doesn’t matter how silly an objection may be, there are Protestants who will believe it.

The reverse is not true–Catholics are not taught how wrong the Protestants are. They are simply taught their faith. They are not taught by the contrast and compare method used by many non-Catholics.

That is because the Catholic Church is like Yahweh, I AM. The Church is built upon the rock of Jesus, not some man’s opinion of what scripture means.
 
To the people telling me how to debate a person using the Sola Scriptura argument, I appreciate it, but I know how to use arguments for my own cases. He was wondering what Catholics teach as apposed to Sola Scriptura, and I couldn’t think of the word.
Catholic teaching is not “Sola” anything - unlike Christian sects and groups which tend to take an either/or approach to Christian doctrine, and pit one legitimate doctrine against another, as if they were contraditory or in competition:
Scripture vs. Tradition
Scripture vs. Church authority
faith vs. works
Jesus vs. Mary
etc. etc.

The Catholic Faith is just that: catholic, whole - where all the elements fit together and form a complete unified system. Most heresies begin by isolating a legitimate doctrine, expanding it beyond its natural due, and then using that bloated doctrine to attack the others that then appear to contradict it.

—todd
catholicsojourner.blogspot.com
 
The reason why Catholicism is attacked is because Protestants need for Catholics to be wrong in order for themselves to be right. It’s almost as if Protestantism’s reason for existence is to show Catholicism wrong! Because if Catholics are right,there is no need for Protestants to exist. Therefore, in order to justify their existence, they are continually looking for ways to denigrate Catholicism: it is built into their blood. Some of their denigrations are pretty ridiculous, like the one that Catholics don’t believe in the Resurrection because the crucifix has Jesus is still on the cross. It doesn’t matter how silly an objection may be, there are Protestants who will believe it.

The reverse is not true–Catholics are not taught how wrong the Protestants are. They are simply taught their faith. They are not taught by the contrast and compare method used by many non-Catholics.

That is because the Catholic Church is like Yahweh, I AM. The Church is built upon the rock of Jesus, not some man’s opinion of what scripture means.
I was having a nice day until reading that, especially the “built into their blood” part.

Would you clarify whether you are stereotyping all Protestants or just some? If the latter, could you be specific? Or were you just having a bad day?

From the sticky:
  • Civility and a respect for each other should be foremost.
  • It is never acceptable to assume or say you know what another person thinks or needs.
  • If you aren’t going to go into the discussion with the resolution that you could just possibly have your view broadened, you may as well not go into it.
  • Terms of derision, derogatory remarks, baiting, and inflammatory statements are prohibited.
 
I was having a nice day until reading that, especially the “built into their blood” part.

Would you clarify whether you are stereotyping all Protestants or just some? If the latter, could you be specific? Or were you just having a bad day?

From the sticky:
  • Civility and a respect for each other should be foremost.
  • It is never acceptable to assume or say you know what another person thinks or needs.
  • If you aren’t going to go into the discussion with the resolution that you could just possibly have your view broadened, you may as well not go into it.
  • Terms of derision, derogatory remarks, baiting, and inflammatory statements are prohibited.
Struck a chord, huh?

Nope, this is a conclusion based upon observation, history and logic. Think about it. If the Catholic Church is not wrong, then Protestantism is not needed.

“Built into their blood”–that’s simply a graphic way of putting it. Another way of saying it is that critique of the Catholic Church is inherent in the whole notion of the Reformation.
 
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