Sola Scriptura: A Blind Spot but Not Worthless

  • Thread starter Thread starter Koineman
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Sola scriptura, no, not in any formal sense. Inasmuch as you would affirm that all traditions etc. are subject to Scripture. Sola fide, yes. At least with respect to Augsburg Confession IV.
:hmmm:

Article IV: Of Justification.

1] Also they teach that men cannot be justified before God by their own strength, merits, or works, but are freely justified for 2] Christ’s sake, through faith, when they believe that they are received into favor, and that their sins are forgiven for Christ’s sake, who, by His death, has made satisfaction for our sins. 3] This faith God imputes for righteousness in His sight. Rom. 3 and 4.

I’ll admit to be surprised to see “alone” missing from the article…
 
Understand. But it only matters if you see no fault, even infallibility, in what goes before the Scriptures (pope,council,bishop).
The thing is, Ben, that you see councils and bishops (The Pope is still Bishop) in action in Scriptures. You don’t see the sola before scriptures anywhere. So if the principle is to be faithfully followed, it demands an Episcopalian form of Church government and a strict manner in the selection of Presbyters. Both concepts are missing in most defenders of the sola scriptura concept.
 
Sola scriptura, no, not in any formal sense. Inasmuch as you would affirm that all traditions etc. are subject to Scripture. Sola fide, yes. At least with respect to Augsburg Confession IV.
Agreed. I would add that, as you imply, sola scriptura is not an article of faith, not a doctrine. It is a practice.
Sola fide, OTOH, as understood by Lutherans, is de fide

Jon
 
:hmmm:

Article IV: Of Justification.

1] Also they teach that men cannot be justified before God by their own strength, merits, or works, but are freely justified for 2] Christ’s sake, through faith, when they believe that they are received into favor, and that their sins are forgiven for Christ’s sake, who, by His death, has made satisfaction for our sins. 3] This faith God imputes for righteousness in His sight. Rom. 3 and 4.

I’ll admit to be surprised to see “alone” missing from the article…
Well, the article makes clear what we teach about justification. Not by our own strength, or merit, or works, but by faith, which we receive for Christ’s sake. The word alone isn’t needed.
Sola fide is a short hand phrase. CA IV is an explanation

Jon
 
Ip

It sounds you are very much like a protestant in that you (O’S) also have decided that a “tradition” can be fallible , a council can be fallible, a church can be fallible. You also reject certain traditions.

I am not sure who coined SS or if it was even Luther . I think he took a stand against a certain biblical interpretations that were held up by a magisterium, even councils and popes. What he was really saying was that they were fallible and that one can have a differing interpretation, some would even say "private’’. That is not to say Luther was devoid of any tradition that helped illumine "his"interpretations. As you rightly say, we do have a foundation given to us. Luther was aware of history and early father writings. Luther was also aware of Holy Spirit dynamics being available to every generation to “see if it isn’t so”. He was very Augustinian or Jerome like in this regard. Like the HS helped illumine fathers to the trinity as He still does today. He does not rest once it is revealed so that others don’t have to eat the meat and digest for the themselves. Otherwise everything would be milk to us (predigested food, by others).

I would say Luther though knowledgeable of history and councils and fathers finally rested upon scripture to make sense of it all. You and I can quibble over SS but only because we have a tradition, even a church, that is free from a tradition that says she is infallibly right on all things (faith and morals),that being the opposing final norm.

SS made perfect sense in his time and circumstance. At the very least(worst?), one man made tradition cancelled out another man made tradition. Politics aside, the church, even the CC, has strived to be “scriptural” in all things, and most churches also strive to stay within historical context and foundations.
If the term fallible is a term to be used I would clarify something. Tradition is fallible, in that mistakes can and have occurred in it, yet without tradition it impossible to grasp the scripture in its deepest and fullest sense. Tradition is necessary, not an option in my view of things.

As for the issues which Luther disagreed with, it does no good to appeal to tradition in general to respond those. Each point in particular would have to be bought up. But I do think there are certain extravagances Luther and those after him took to, especially on Sola Fide, the sacraments and the nature of church. I do not think the Lutheran understanding of what the church is coheres with the church which came before it in any century.

But I find the comment that he: rested upon scripture to make sense of it all” the ultimate point of contention. This statement to me is another way of saying he rested on his own personal reading of scripture which perhaps influenced his reading of it and the fathers maybe? I am no Lutheran scholar and haven’t read his works, but I am aware of what he said at Worms, “Here I stand, I can do no other. God help me.” For Luther it was impossible to submit to a church which contradicted his view of the bible and this is why I like to compare someone like Maximos the confessor to Martin Luther.

In some ways the two men are very similar. They were both monks, both scholars, both resisted the church during their time, yet with one very important difference. Maximos did not openly condemn his enemies (at least of what I am aware of) nor did he seek to start a movement around his theology. All he did is not participate in the communion and he did not seek to formally break with the church. He was a dissenting voice in the wilderness and the authorities could not abide him influencing others.

Like Luther, Maximos made his appeal to conscience and to scripture and to the fathers and said Christ has two wills: Jesus truly acts (or moves) according to his humanity and not just his divinity. Unlike Luther he didn’t start a separate church and he was remembered as a great saint by those later who saw he was right in his theology and a true Confessor for Christ. The church vindicated him in the end even if it falsely killed him and Maximos accepted it.

In an imprecise way I hope I have laid out the difference and my problem. I see sola scriptura against the principle of Christian submission. Submission to man is impossible, submission to a man who is wrong is even more impossible. I believe I asked a Lutheran on these boards a question a while ago, if you came to a different position than everyone in your church, would they have the authority to condemn you? To try to correct you? To expel you if need be? Why is it impossible that you’re not another Martin Luther going against the establishment and preaching truth to the world which was distorted until it was more clearly brought out by you? It can’t be impossible and it may very well be likely, especially if you have read the scriptures and have come to an understanding. What then is a church? If we disagree with one particular teaching we move on to another church? If we find water baptism and sacraments repellent we just move on to an evangelical church and yet are still all part of the same church in some way?

That’s why I can’t see Sola scriptura being correct. I can’t see it being correct for other reasons mind you, but this general sense reflects my understanding. If I need to clarify any points (which I am sure I will need to) please ask me to clarify.
 
When God speaks divine revelation, he says one thing:

Jesus
period, end of story.
I’m afraid it’s not that simple, and I’m starting to wonder if it is actually ***you ***who get only pieces of this. Consider this from the CCC:
II. THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN TRADITION AND SACRED SCRIPTURE
One common source. . .
80 "Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture, then, are bound closely together, and communicate one with the other. For both of them, flowing out from the same divine well-spring, come together in some fashion to form one thing, and move towards the same goal."40 Each of them makes present and fruitful in the Church the mystery of Christ, who promised to remain with his own “always, to the close of the age”.41
. . . two distinct modes of transmission
81 "Sacred Scripture is the speech of God as it is put down in writing under the breath of the Holy Spirit."42
"And [Holy] Tradition transmits in its entirety the Word of God which has been entrusted to the apostles by Christ the Lord and the Holy Spirit. It transmits it to the successors of the apostles so that, enlightened by the Spirit of truth, they may faithfully preserve, expound and spread it abroad by their preaching."43
82 As a result the Church, to whom the transmission and interpretation of Revelation is entrusted, “does not derive her certainty about all revealed truths from the holy Scriptures alone. Both Scripture and Tradition must be **accepted and honored with equal sentiments of devotion and reverence.”**44
Although this text does indicate that Scripture and Tradition come together to form a single thing, it also clearly speaks of the two as being “distinct modes of transmission” and speaks of them as two separate things when it says they must be honored with “equal sentiments of devotion and reverence.”

Besides, as I think I pointed out recently, my OP is partly a reaction to the idea that the church (not Tradition) is equal in authority to Scripture. Perhaps you are using the terms church and Tradition interchangeably.
 
I don’t see a problem with church and tradition being interchangeable. I take church teachings to be the serious matters (encyclicals, catechism) that have required a great, great, great deal of study and interpersonal analysis and discussion. . . and of course, the Catholic Church is the Church set up by Jesus. The others were schisms.
 
I do not think the Lutheran understanding of what the church is coheres with the church which came before it in any century.
Just curious, is there an Orthodox definition of church? I’d very much like to compare it to the Lutheran definition in Article VII of Confessio Augustana. What would you see as the main disconnect in the understanding?
I am no Lutheran scholar and haven’t read his works, but I am aware of what he said at Worms, “Here I stand, I can do no other. God help me.” For Luther it was impossible to submit to a church which contradicted his view of the bible and this is why I like to compare someone like Maximos the confessor to Martin Luther.
I think it’s important to keep in mind the tone of Luther’s delivery there; it was not so much defiant as it was a plea to be heard and taught. He thought the promise of “safe conduct” would not be honored (can you blame him?), and he fully expected to die like Hus.
In an imprecise way I hope I have laid out the difference and my problem. I see sola scriptura against the principle of Christian submission.
While this may be true of what is often called solo scriptura on the boards, this isn’t at all true of those Lutherans who actually hold the historic practice of sola scriptura; we’re still beholden to the teachings of our communions. For example, I personally struggle with the concept of a literal 7-day creation. But my communion teaches that this is how God created the universe. So I bow my head, pray for understanding, and accept the fact that through God all things are possible.
Submission to man is impossible, submission to a man who is wrong is even more impossible. I believe I asked a Lutheran on these boards a question a while ago, if you came to a different position than everyone in your church, would they have the authority to condemn you? To try to correct you? To expel you if need be?
Yes. This very thing is happening to a rather high-profile dissenter at this very moment. It’s lit up the Lutheran blogosphere.
 
While this may be true of what is often called solo scriptura on the boards, this isn’t at all true of those Lutherans who actually hold the historic practice of sola scriptura; we’re still beholden to the teachings of our communions.
👍 This needs to be repeatedly pointed out to our Catholic friends on these forums and throughout the Internet. Too often, the abuse of sola scriptura–an abuse you rightly call solO scriptura–is attacked as though it were actually sola scriptura.
 
Just curious, is there an Orthodox definition of church? I’d very much like to compare it to the Lutheran definition in Article VII of Confessio Augustana. What would you see as the main disconnect in the understanding?
The Orthodox Church teaches that the One Church established by Christ is the fulfillment of what the ancient Jerusalem Temple pointed towards, the temple of Christ’s body (cf. John 2:19-21; Eph. 2:22, etc.), constituting the fullness of the People of God presided over by Christ as the High Priest. This People of God is mystically present with Christ as He presides over the heavenly liturgy. This mystical reality is visibly manifested in the Eucharistic community, headed by the Bishop as the Icon of Christ’s High Priesthood (the presbyters being extensions of the Bishop into parish communities).
While this may be true of what is often called solo scriptura on the boards, this isn’t at all true of those Lutherans who actually hold the historic practice of sola scriptura
The problem with this, IMHO, is that given Lutheran ecclesiology (as well as Protestant ecclesiology in general), sola and solo scriptura is a distinction without a difference.
 
The Orthodox Church teaches that the One Church established by Christ is the fulfillment of what the ancient Jerusalem Temple pointed towards, the temple of Christ’s body (cf. John 2:19-21; Eph. 2:22, etc.), constituting the fullness of the People of God presided over by Christ as the High Priest. This People of God is mystically present with Christ as He presides over the heavenly liturgy. This mystical reality is visibly manifested in the Eucharistic community, headed by the Bishop as the Icon of Christ’s High Priesthood (the presbyters being extensions of the Bishop into parish communities).
Thank you, friend. Could you clarify further? I’m failing to see where these definitions conflict. Both seem to follow St. Ignatius familiar words, “Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude [of the people] also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church…”
The problem with this, IMHO, is that given Lutheran ecclesiology (as well as Protestant ecclesiology in general), sola and solo scriptura is a distinction without a difference.
Come now, you spent enough time in Lutheran communions to know that a given ecclesial structure’s failures are due to the failures of man, not the failure of a church. Then again, you did convert, so…😛 😃
 
Sola Scriptura does have a blind spot: Since Scripture does not specify the books that belong in the Bible, it is not the sole infallible authority on all matters pertaining to Christian faith and practice. All Christians today are dependent on the extrabiblical tradition known as the canon of Scripture. What’s more, they treat that tradition as infallible, since they don’t dare to question it or change it.

Whenever I ask a non-Catholic or non-EO Christian to show me where the Bible says that the Epistle to the Hebrews is inspired, invariably the answer goes outside the Bible, whether to history or to the claim of a subjective, inner witness by the Holy Spirit, or perhaps both. (I use Hebrews as my example because it’s not clear whether it was written by an apostle; other NT books could be used in the question.)

Having said that, I don’t take that fact as far as Catholics take it. Catholics take that fact and conclude from it that the Church is of equal authority with Scripture (unless I’ve misunderstood Catholic teaching on this point), but I think that is a non sequitur. The church was the conduit through which the Holy Spirit gave us the canon of Scripture, but a conduit is not equal to or as important as the water that flows through it.

A better analogy is that of a messenger: A messenger does not have equal authority to the one who wrote the message, just because he or she delivers it, and if he or she spoke about the message, his or her words would not be of equal authority to the words in the message.

This is why I don’t reject SS, even though it does have the blind spot I mentioned.
Fascinating argument. I don’t think its accurate to say the church believes It is of equal authority with scripture but rather that it has the authority to speak the truth of scripture. As for your analogy without the conduit nothing flows. They are complimentary not contradictory. I think you fallen into the common protestant trap that this must be an all or nothing issue rather than a both/and issue
 
The thing is, Ben, that you see councils and bishops (The Pope is still Bishop) in action in Scriptures. You don’t see the sola before scriptures anywhere. So if the principle is to be faithfully followed, it demands an Episcopalian form of Church government and a strict manner in the selection of Presbyters. Both concepts are missing in most defenders of the sola scriptura concept.
You did not address the infallibility, the relative assuredness of whatever goes before it, handles it etc., nor the presbytery form of government.
 
Fascinating argument. I don’t think its accurate to say the church believes It is of equal authority with scripture but rather that it has the authority to speak the truth of scripture.
Some Catholics speak that way, though. That was what my OP reacted to.
As for your analogy without the conduit nothing flows. They are complimentary not contradictory. I think you fallen into the common protestant trap that this must be an all or nothing issue rather than a both/and issue
I never said they were contradictory. That wasn’t my point. What I was reacting to was the idea that the Church has authority equal to that of Scripture. The reasoning usually goes: since you trust the authority of the church on the canon, you should trust her authority in all other things she teaches.

I wouldn’t even call the relationship “complementary,” since that, too, implies equality. The messenger is not complementary to the message. He is the deliverer. That does not confer on him the same authority as the author of the message.
 
An infallible Scripture and Tradition require the infallible Magisterium. Some human agency - not “the Church” in general - had to have authority to:
  1. Accept the OT as still inspired, for Christians, thought certain parts are superceded; (not at all obvious at the time)
  2. Affirm a NT should exis****t; canonize certain writings; rule out the vast majority of others (again, seems in hindsight a New Testament should exist, but controversial at the time. If magisterium not infallible, maybe they were wrong to invent one.)
  3. Define what “Scripture” means for Christians; (again not at all obvious at the time)
  4. Define what “Tradition” means; canonize 1% of traditions as Sacred Tradition; rule out others as unreliable.
  5. Over the past 2000 years continue to identify which Scriptures apply to given situations. Actively defend the canon of Scripture and Tradition, both under attack.
You probably accept at least 1 - 4 as infallible actions. None of them can be proven or accomplished by Scripture or Tradition alone or in combination, because they all require actions 1 - 4 to be completed, before we have “Scripture” and “Tradition” to work with. So, the actions of (at least) 1 - 4 point towards an infallible actor, a visible authority as a channel for God’s will.

If you disagree with #5, you concede the infallible Magisterium did exist for a few centuries(!) then mysteriously disappeared, though the people who infallibly finalized the NT canon were w****rong when they continued the same Magisterium for the future.
So were the Corinthians, or the Galatians, or the Philippians, etc., infallible or just obedient therefore conditionally correct when they received Paul’s letters as “apostolic” and even inspired ?
 
So were the Corinthians, or the Galatians, or the Philippians, etc., infallible or just obedient therefore conditionally correct when they received Paul’s letters as “apostolic” and even inspired ?
None of them “received” Paul’s letters as “apostolic” or inspired.
 
Thank you, friend. Could you clarify further? I’m failing to see where these definitions conflict. Both seem to follow St. Ignatius familiar words, “Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude [of the people] also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church…”
Also they teach that one holy Church is to continue forever. The Church is the congregation of saints, in which the Gospel is rightly taught and the Sacraments are rightly administered.
While the Orthodox would agree with the bulk of this, they would not reduce it to simply being where the Gospel is rightly taught and the Sacraments rightly administered. In the case of the latter, the Sacraments are only rightly administered when a Bishop in succession from the Apostles is presiding over the liturgy. This is just as necessary, since the Bishops only celebrate the liturgy if they are divinely appointed by Christ through the Church; that is not the case if the individual has no valid ordination. We would agree that the Church is the assembly of the saints; The Latin Church, where “church” ordinarily means the Magisterium in communion with the Pope, is not a point of referent for us. For us, it is the entire People of God.
And to the true unity of the Church it is enough to agree concerning the doctrine of the Gospel and the administration of the Sacraments. Nor is it necessary that human traditions, that is, rites or ceremonies, instituted by men, should be everywhere alike. As Paul says: One faith, one Baptism, one God and Father of all, etc. Eph. 4:5-6.
No, it is not enough. The rites and ceremonies that the article dismisses, are just as apostolic and necessary as the Gospel and the Sacraments themselves. It’s impossible to render them asunder in such a manner, as if they bear no relation to other apostolic Traditions. While they may differ with respect to the culture that celebrates them, they are just as necessary.
 
Come now, you spent enough time in Lutheran communions to know that a given ecclesial structure’s failures are due to the failures of man, not the failure of a church. Then again, you did convert, so…😛 😃
Ha! If Lutheran church structures were enough to make me convert, I would’ve converted when I was 10 😃 No, I mean the deeper theological ecclesiology behind the understanding of Scriptural interpretation and dogma.
 
Human beings should not capitulate to their baser inclinations. In any case, the nature of things is that Christ is -not- division. (Since we are talking about the nature of things and Christ perfects our nature.)
Have we reached perfection yet, even as a Church? Sorry but that is the battle the old vs the new ,the spirit against the flesh, the good mixed in with the bad. Nothing to do with “division”.
You can’t separate written words from the people who wrote them, and those who read and understand them.
That is true , we are one with Paul even the Lord when we understand them (Writ). That is the conditionality, it must be understanding in truth and spirit. Therefore the writing and the writers and author can indeed be separated from the reader. Which leads to your next statement…
The reader gives the words meaning.
Beauty is in the eyes of the beholder. Understanding is in the heart and mind of a man, the “inner man”, yet we do not give the meaning, as in private interpretation. No, the writer is His own interpreter, even judge of His own intent and meaning.

I do not write something for you to intend your own meaning from it. That I write to you, and even explain it to you and give you perfect understanding can give you an authority equal to me, but you will still always be bound to my Writ and even conditionality of being in perfect understanding to it. And certainly not the other way around. Early bishops and popes and councils understood the supreme authority of Writ from which their authority rested on, or is explained in, or governed by.

You can rest on a bishop, even a council or a pope fully, to the extent that they are "scriptural’, more so than if they are in line with a past council, or bishop, or pope.

All attest to the inerrancy of scripture, but not all attest to the inerrancy of councils, or bishops, or popes, or individuals. Hence scripture being the more universal superior norm for the time being.
 
Some Catholics speak that way, though. That was what my OP reacted to.

I never said they were contradictory. That wasn’t my point. What I was reacting to was the idea that the Church has authority equal to that of Scripture. The reasoning usually goes: since you trust the authority of the church on the canon, you should trust her authority in all other things she teaches.

I wouldn’t even call the relationship “complementary,” since that, too, implies equality. The messenger is not complementary to the message. He is the deliverer. That does not confer on him the same authority as the author of the message.
Yes you should trust the church with that as Jesus promised he would lead the church in the way of the truth and evil will not prevail against it.

This is pretty straight forward stuff.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top