Sola Scriptura: A Blind Spot but Not Worthless

[benhur]

Yes you should trust the church with that as Jesus promised he would lead the church in the way of the truth and evil will not prevail against it.

This is pretty straight forward stuff.

Just that we shape, interpret that "guidance’’ how ? Perfectly ? Or a little in our own image ?

Do you think the Jews or Israel thought themselves to be perfectly guided by Jehovah at all times ? Did they not question, even miss that such and such a thing, especially something "bad’’, could be guidance disguised to many (but not all) ? Is it once right always right ? After all, as the Jews told Jesus, “we are sons of Abraham” (and salvation is of the Jews, could we be wrong?).

PS. Jehovah guided Israel perfectly. Protestants also, like you, believe He has guided the church perfectly.

 

[Denise1957]

PS. Jehovah guided Israel perfectly. Protestants also, like you, believe He has guided the church perfectly.

Which church would that be, exactly, in your view?

 

[ignatius777]

Just that we shape, interpret that "guidance’’ how ? Perfectly ? Or a little in our own image ?

Do you think the Jews or Israel thought themselves to be perfectly guided by Jehovah at all times ? Did they not question, even miss that such and such a thing, especially something "bad’’, could be guidance disguised to many (but not all) ? Is it once right always right ? After all, as the Jews told Jesus, “we are sons of Abraham” (and salvation is of the Jews, could we be wrong?).

PS. Jehovah guided Israel perfectly. Protestants also, like you, believe He has guided the church perfectly.

You recognize don’t you that Jesus changed all that? Jesus promised Peter the church would be guided by the Hoy Spirit in the way of the truth and that evil would not prevail against it

 

[Koineman]

You recognize don’t you that Jesus changed all that? Jesus promised Peter the church would be guided by the Hoy Spirit in the way of the truth and that evil would not prevail against it

This does not mean that error cannot creep into a church. Paul made this clear when he gave this warning:

“28 Be on guard for yourselves and for all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood. 29 I know that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock; 30 and from among your own selves men will arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after them.” (Acts 20)

Why warn them if he interpreted Christ’s words (which you alluded to) the way you do?

 

[benhur]

You recognize don’t you that Jesus changed all that? Jesus promised Peter the church would be guided by the Hoy Spirit in the way of the truth and that evil would not prevail against it

Changed what , Himself, human nature, free will, divine revelation ? What changed is that the Holy Spirit is in us and not just with us. That does not make us perfect, relative to old testament saints. Israel was not promised guidance by God Himself ? Really ?

What is it to prevail ? Never be wrong ? Not for a second ? If you fall yet rise again with the Spirit’s help you then blame Him for not stopping you from falling in the first place ?

Duke prevailed over all the schemings of Wisconsin, but not without scars. Not without losing, being behind , being wrong 17 times, for almost twenty five minutes of the game. Duke was not infallible but victorious. She does not say we were perfect in faith and morals every second though not always in practice or execution. Perfection is immaterial. Duke won. The Church wins and only a sectarian dislikes that it is beyond Catholic or Orthodox or Protestant constraints.

 

[benhur]

Which church would that be, exactly, in your view?

Last I heard saints go marching in, not churches.

 

[Denise1957]

What is it to prevail ? Never be wrong ? Not for a second ? If you fall yet rise again with the Spirit’s help you then blame Him for not stopping you from falling in the first place ?

I know that the question is directed to Ignatius, but I’d like to post a comment or two. Our Lord Jesus said that upon the rock of Peter, He would build His Church, and that the gages of Hell would not prevail against it. Against the Church, it seems obvious to me. The Church still stands, despite the crises, schisms, and heresies it had had to endure. She still stands, after nearly 2000 years. The people in the Church aren’t perfect. Our Lord never said that they would be. He said that scandals would come. And yet the Church still stands.

I don’t understand why Protestants sometimes focus on the Church being right or wrong, and trying their darndest to point out what’s wrong, and is wrong, and has been wrong. If the Church is so wrong, why does she still exist? Why does she still hold out against secular humanism in her doctrines? (though not always in practice, of course)

 

[Isaiah45_9]

You did not address the infallibility, the relative assuredness of whatever goes before it, handles it etc., nor the presbytery form of government.

I don’t need to. There is no infallible declaration from an infallible mechanism that says what is and is not infallible. As such, you have not addressed the Scriptural manner of Church government. If we hold to Scriptures as the final norm, this model must be present in its manner, form and intent. Anything else is a departure of Apostolic Faith and Scriptures.

What we do have is that the Church is the Pillar and Bulwark of the Truth. The Church has that gift, that responsibility. The body of Christ responding to its head: Jesus. What we know, what we have is because this pillar is the medium in which we come to know Christ. Go therefore and teach others all that I have taught you. He did not say, teach whatever ends up being written and leave it at that.

 

[ignatius777]

This does not mean that error cannot creep into a church. Paul made this clear when he gave this warning:

“28 Be on guard for yourselves and for all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood. 29 I know that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock; 30 and from among your own selves men will arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after them.” (Acts 20)

Why warn them if he interpreted Christ’s words (which you alluded to) the way you do?

He is talking to individuals not the church. If he is talking about the church then he is contradicting Jesus. Is that what you mean to suggest?

 

[ignatius777]

Changed what , Himself, human nature, free will, divine revelation ? What changed is that the Holy Spirit is in us and not just with us. That does not make us perfect, relative to old testament saints. Israel was not promised guidance by God Himself ? Really ?

What is it to prevail ? Never be wrong ? Not for a second ? If you fall yet rise again with the Spirit’s help you then blame Him for not stopping you from falling in the first place ?

Duke prevailed over all the schemings of Wisconsin, but not without scars. Not without losing, being behind , being wrong 17 times, for almost twenty five minutes of the game. Duke was not infallible but victorious. She does not say we were perfect in faith and morals every second though not always in practice or execution. Perfection is immaterial. Duke won. The Church wins and only a sectarian dislikes that it is beyond Catholic or Orthodox or Protestant constraints.

So you dont know that Jesus established a new covenant?

 

[ignatius777]

I know that the question is directed to Ignatius, but I’d like to post a comment or two. Our Lord Jesus said that upon the rock of Peter, He would build His Church, and that the gages of Hell would not prevail against it. Against the Church, it seems obvious to me. The Church still stands, despite the crises, schisms, and heresies it had had to endure. She still stands, after nearly 2000 years. The people in the Church aren’t perfect. Our Lord never said that they would be. He said that scandals would come. And yet the Church still stands.

I don’t understand why Protestants sometimes focus on the Church being right or wrong, and trying their darndest to point out what’s wrong, and is wrong, and has been wrong. If the Church is so wrong, why does she still exist? Why does she still hold out against secular humanism in her doctrines? (though not always in practice, of course)

Well said

 

[benhur]

. There is no infallible declaration from an infallible mechanism that says what is and is not infallible.

Not sure brother if I need a ten foot pole with that mouthful. There are infallible declarations, for sure.

As such, you have not addressed the Scriptural manner of Church government

I thought did as leaning towards presbyterianism while not ruling out a certain “connectivity” amongst churches/congregations.

If we hold to Scriptures as the final norm, this model must be present in its manner, form and intent. Anything else is a departure of Apostolic Faith and Scriptures.

Without being too technical I thought the Apostolic faith was put to writing with the intention of being normative for the apostolic church, both during apostolic days and especially afterwards.I also do not recall any prophet, or Christ, or any apostle revering the normativeness of any form of magisterium equally to Writ.(even whilst canon was still open !)

What we do have is that the Church is the Pillar and Bulwark of the Truth. The Church has that gift, that responsibility. The body of Christ responding to its head: Jesus. What we know, what we have is because this pillar is the medium in which we come to know Christ. Go therefore and teach others all that I have taught you. He did not say, teach whatever ends up being written and leave it at that.

He also did not say, teach whatever ends up said in council or from this chair or from apostolic succession unconditionally.

 

[commenter]

This does not mean that error cannot creep into a church. Paul made this clear when he gave this warning:

“28 Be on guard for yourselves and for all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood. 29 I know that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock; 30 and from among your own selves men will arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after them.” (Acts 20)

Why warn them if he interpreted Christ’s words (which you alluded to) the way you do?

Error can creep into individuals, as in the quote. Whether error can creep into a church is a separate question. The answer is that error can creep into churches that are not guided by the Magisterium. The Magisterium is reliable, whether all Catholics follow it, or not.

 

[benhur]

Error can creep into individuals, as in the quote. Whether error can creep into a church is a separate question. The answer is that error can creep into churches that are not guided by the Magisterium. The Magisterium is reliable, whether all Catholics follow it, or not.

So Pau’ls warnings were only to individuals/ not to congregations/churches,and their magisteriums/elders/ presbyters ? But I get your gist. I believe the HS is reliable and ever striving in the Body of Christ , the Church which, as you might know we believe to be much bigger or universal than just the Catholic magisterium.

 

[Isaiah45_9]

Without being too technical I thought the Apostolic faith was put to writing with the intention of being normative for the apostolic church

Not normative, but a witness to the work the Apostles and its successor did and because these scriptures were used during the Divine Liturgy since the early days, as witnessed by St. Justin Martyr ~140AD. And to stop all the other texts that claimed to be Scriptures.

He also did not say, teach whatever ends up said in council or from this chair or from apostolic succession unconditionally.

But he did say to these same Apostles: He who hears you hears me, he who rejects you, rejects me.

And yes, it is apostolic succession. Go teach and make disciples of all nations. That is so that the teaching can be passed on, in its form, manner and intent. Clearly Scriptural.

You have failed to demonstrate a form of Church government that conforms to scriptures more faithfully than what Catholic and Orthodox observe. If I have misunderstood, please present your case.

 

[Isaiah45_9]

So Pau’ls warnings were only to individuals/ not to congregations/churches,and their magisteriums/elders/ presbyters ? But I get your gist. I believe the HS is reliable and ever striving in the Body of Christ , the Church which is much bigger than just the Catholic magisterium.

You are getting hung up on words like Magisterium and Apostolic Succession. It appears you just don’t like them.

Magisterium is nothing else than the teaching office established by Christ in Matt 28.

Apostolic Succession is nothing else than the laying of the hands, the selection of Elders, Presbyters and Episkopos (Bishops) by the Apostles and those who succeed the Apostles.

Both very Scriptural.

Why would anyone that claims to follow Scriptures as the norm to norm all other norms have anything different?

 

[LutheranScholar]

I know that the question is directed to Ignatius, but I’d like to post a comment or two. Our Lord Jesus said that upon the rock of Peter, He would build His Church, and that the gages of Hell would not prevail against it. Against the Church, it seems obvious to me. The Church still stands, despite the crises, schisms, and heresies it had had to endure. She still stands, after nearly 2000 years. The people in the Church aren’t perfect. Our Lord never said that they would be. He said that scandals would come. And yet the Church still stands.

I don’t understand why Protestants sometimes focus on the Church being right or wrong, and trying their darndest to point out what’s wrong, and is wrong, and has been wrong. If the Church is so wrong, why does she still exist? Why does she still hold out against secular humanism in her doctrines? (though not always in practice, of course)

It’s been nearly 500 years since that point of time when the Protestant movement was born. Why does it still exist, if not guided by God? Who said that the Catholic Church ( or the Orthodox Church, or the Assyrians, etc) were wrong altogether? This is where Protestant generosity wins out. None of our churches claim an exclusive copyright to the Truth. I’ve seen so called Catholic parishes that *did *have a liberal Christian emphasis. Our churches stand against secular humanism too and our message comes out a lot more consistently than you might expect. St. Peter’s confession was the Rock of which Our Lord spoke, a confession all the Apostles came to share. The Assyrians still exist despite incredible persecution during most of her history. Like the Copts, the Assyrians didn’t have ecclesiastical control over an entire continent at any point of her history, yet the gates of hell never conquered her. Why does any Trinitarian church still exist? God’s grace. I don’t know why Catholics pant so hard to " prove" that Protestants are wrong and that their only hope is to align themselves with Rome. Why should they care, so long as Christ is being proclaimed? The Catholic Church rightly states that it isn’t her place to say who’s saved and who’s damned, that call is God’s alone.
" I belong to Paul," " I belong to Cephas," " I belong to Apollos," " I belong to Christ." St. Paul remarked on those stupid divisions that were plaguing the Corinthian church from the inside… he called them irrelevant. Christ effects the new birth, the transformative effects of the Holy Spirit in the life of the Christian and in the life of the Christian Church. Scandal after scandal rocking the Catholic Church as it does no other says that the corruption contained therein hasn’t been properly addressed… apparently in Luther’s time, the scandals were a little worse. If you call yourself the perfect church, how can you let the Holy Spirit in to try to heal some of those wounds, if you’re already so " perfect?"

 

[benhur]

Not normative, but a witness to the work the Apostles and its successor did and because these scriptures were used during the Divine Liturgy since the early days, as witnessed by St. Justin Martyr ~140AD. And to stop all the other texts that claimed to be Scripture

Don’t we agree ? I think a few of the epistles state that exactly, of their intent to set the record straight, partly because both oral and written false records already in circulation.

But he did say to these same Apostles: He who hears you hears me, he who rejects you, rejects me.

That is right .Just like in the OT and its prophets . That does not undermine the unique normativeness of Writ. Mose was cool . So was his successor Joshua. We would probably follow them anywhere, but man, those tablets fingered by Jehovah Himself, they were in a different league (not taking anything away from Moses or Joshua who would concur in my opinion to the Tablets superlative authority).

We (and the Jews) would probably have revered Moses grave as much as the Tablets and Ark but God intervened so as not to allow such an error.

You have failed to demonstrate a form of Church government that conforms to scriptures more faithfully than what Catholic and Orthodox observe. If I have misunderstood, please present your case.

Not sure either of us have gone much further than just stating just stating the form. For sure apostles set up presbyters and not monarchal bishops.

 

[LutheranScholar]

This does not mean that error cannot creep into a church. Paul made this clear when he gave this warning:

“28 Be on guard for yourselves and for all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood. 29 I know that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock; 30 and from among your own selves men will arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after them.” (Acts 20)

Why warn them if he interpreted Christ’s words (which you alluded to) the way you do?

That’s exactly right. That’s why we need to adhere to the Confessions, so such poison doesn’t contaminate our own church ( or we can keep the poison to a bare minimum). Error has already crept into so many of our American churches that I think that people are beginning to confuse faith with political affiliation, which directly contradicts Luther’s Two Kingdoms teaching… the church is one kingdom, the government is another and the two ought never interfere with the other. I’m reading CFW Walther’s Law and Gospel: How to Correctly Read and Apply the Bible and it’s an awesome read, as well as addressing a lot of important points of dogma.

 

[benhur]

So you dont know that Jesus established a new covenant?

Is there anything really new. There was grace and mercy and regeneration in the old. What is new is that we are grafted into to the old vine big time (gentiles were still saved in OT, just not as big a fashion). We are sons of Abraham.