Sola Scriptura: A Blind Spot but Not Worthless

[benhur]

I don’t understand why Protestants sometimes focus on the Church being right or wrong, and trying their darndest to point out what’s wrong, and is wrong, and has been wrong. If the Church is so wrong, why does she still exist? Why does she still hold out against secular humanism in her doctrines? (though not always in practice, of course)

Denise,

Sorry if it seems that way. In know what makes it worse, what makes it harder to just chill in the face of differences or perceived error. That would be to say you have never, ever erred in faith and morals and doctrine. To say that the Holy Spirit has been promised only to you for this perfect guidance.

I do not presume that existence or perseverence is evidence of righteousness much less perfect doctrine.I think we will have JW’s with us right up to His return.

I also don not presume that because a church is right once she always will be, or that because she is wrong once she is wrong on all things.

Blessings

 

[Koineman]

Originally Posted by Koineman
This does not mean that error cannot creep into a church. Paul made this clear when he gave this warning:

No. The point is that even though error can creep into the church, that doesn’t mean the gates of hell prevail against it. Catholics take that phrase “will not prevail against it” to mean that no error at all will creep into the church–at least, that’s how it often is presented. But if that were true, and no error would creep into the church at all, Paul’s warning here is pointless.

 

[Koineman]

That’s exactly right. That’s why we need to adhere to the Confessions, so such poison doesn’t contaminate our own church ( or we can keep the poison to a bare minimum). Error has already crept into so many of our American churches that I think that people are beginning to confuse faith with political affiliation, which directly contradicts Luther’s Two Kingdoms teaching… the church is one kingdom, the government is another and the two ought never interfere with the other. I’m reading CFW Walther’s Law and Gospel: How to Correctly Read and Apply the Bible and it’s an awesome read, as well as addressing a lot of important points of dogma.

I have that book, too, but I haven’t finished it yet.

 

[Koineman]

Error can creep into individuals, as in the quote. Whether error can creep into a church is a separate question. The answer is that error can creep into churches that are not guided by the Magisterium. The Magisterium is reliable, whether all Catholics follow it, or not.

So you’re saying that when Paul gave this warning, he was addressing people who were not guided by the magisterium?

 

[ignatius777]

Is there anything really new. There was grace and mercy and regeneration in the old. What is new is that we are grafted into to the old vine big time (gentiles were still saved in OT, just not as big a fashion). We are sons of Abraham.

If there is nothing new then we’d all be jews right now.

 

[commenter]

So Pau’ls warnings were only to individuals/ not to congregations/churches,and their magisteriums/elders/ presbyters ? But I get your gist. I believe the HS is reliable and ever striving in the Body of Christ , the Church which, as you might know we believe to be much bigger or universal than just the Catholic magisterium.

The Holy Spirit certainly can work through all Christians. So also the “Spirit of the Secular World” might try to influence all Christians. The history of the past 50 years show many Protestant churches have repudiated doctrinal and moral positions that those churches, themselves, formerly considered sacred, as did Christianity as a whole. Some individual Protestants, and individual Catholics, have been influenced by the secular media culture, both in morality, and doctrine.

The Magisterium has not been corrupted. It’s still a reliable guide. That suggests that besides working through Catholic and Protestant individuals, the Holy Spirit also works through the Magisterium. What about churches like the LCMS, which continues to uphold orthodox Christian teaching? I believe the Holy Spirit deeply works through the individuals there. Lutherans don’t claim to have a magisterium.

The Magisterium is like a lighthouse, one of the means (not the only means) the Spirit guides us. Some churches use the lighthouse as a current, living landmark as to what constitutes “Christian Tradition” and “orthodoxy”. They don’t always aim directly at the lighthouse, but they use it to calibrate their current position. It’s more than a map, which is useful like Tradition, it’s more like a currently operating GPS. You use it in conjunction with the map.

 

[benhur]

You are getting hung up on words like Magisterium and Apostolic Succession. It appears you just don’t like them.

Why, because I say they are included in Pauls warning ? That indeed from them partly/equally will come wolves ?

Magisterium is nothing else than the teaching office established by Christ in Matt 28.

Amen. That is why I said it is bigger than a Catholic magisterium at present.

Apostolic Succession is nothing else than the laying of the hands, the selection of Elders, Presbyters and Episkopos (Bishops) by the Apostles and those who succeed the Apostles.

Amen. Again bigger than the Catholic definition, which some say can be partly self serving (any definition can I suppose). Furthermore, the Lord is not a respecter of persons for His anointing, and sometimes such a person has no honor in hishomeland/church, much less any laying on of hands by them.

Why would anyone that claims to follow Scriptures as the norm to norm all other norms have anything different?

Not sure why a magisterium or a successor would sat they have a problem with Writ as a superlative norm because for the most part in history they act like it does.

 

[benhur]

The Holy Spirit certainly can work through all Christians.

Why thank you Commenter.

The Magisterium has not been corrupted.

Yes, she is infallible in faith morals and doctrines per her own teaching.

It’s still a reliable guide.

100% reliable for Catholics and not a 100% for others.

 

[benhur]

If there is nothing new then we’d all be jews right now.

Well, we kind of are and kind of not for there is neither Jew nor Gentile in the Spirit (descendants of the second Adam). But you are right , and I did say the new thing is we are gentiles grafted into the Jewish vine big time.

Jesus was a full Jew in the flesh and what is it you do in Eucharist ? What becomes part of you ?

We are part of Abraham’s promised descendants, and he was what , a Jew ? Spiritually speaking.

 

[Isaiah45_9]

Not sure either of us have gone much further than just stating just stating the form. For sure apostles set up presbyters and not monarchal bishops.

You are still not presenting your case, ben. Other than criticizing, you have not offered correction.

 

[commenter]

Yes, she is infallible in faith morals and doctrines per her own teaching.100% reliable for Catholics and not a 100% for others.

This is a response to a post defending the Magisterium. Actually I agree with the response. Protestants do regard the Magisterium to be something less than 100% reliable for Protestants. For some, the glass is less than half full For many, perhaps increasing numbers, the glass is a lot more than half full, though never full. Why is it more than 0% for many non-Catholic individuals and churches?

 

[JonNC]

This is a response to a post defending the Magisterium. Actually I agree with the response. Protestants do regard the Magisterium to be something less than 100% reliable for Protestants. For some, the glass is less than half full For many, perhaps increasing numbers, the glass is a lot more than half full, though never full. Why is it more than 0% for many non-Catholic individuals and churches?

For a non-Catholic to say that the Magisterium of the Catholic Church is 100% unreliable is patently false, unless they are rejecting the vast areas of teaching where virtually all Christians agree.

Jon

 

[commenter]

For a non-Catholic to say that the Magisterium of the Catholic Church is 100% unreliable is patently false, unless they are rejecting the vast areas of teaching where virtually all Christians agree.

Jon

Perhaps my choice of words was clearer in my mind than in writing. The least of my faults.

I didn’t say some non-Catholics have beliefs that overlap the Magisterium. I said many non-Catholics find it reliable but not 100%. Reliable has a different meaning for me than coincide.

 

[benhur]

This is a response to a post defending the Magisterium. Actually I agree with the response. Protestants do regard the Magisterium to be something less than 100% reliable for Protestants. For some, the glass is less than half full For many, perhaps increasing numbers, the glass is a lot more than half full, though never full. Why is it more than 0% for many non-Catholic individuals and churches?

Hi Commenter. Yes I had a little problem understanding also .or at least I had to read it a few times. I finally took it to mean we were strictly talking about Catholic magisterium,setting aside “other” magisteriums. I believe then your question to be more rhetorical , as to why we find anything reliable in it, and because we do, it must say something positive about it.I think that was your point. (and it is positive)

Have said a few times is that indeed the Pope or a bishop/priest can be taken to be very authoritative, even to be followed, when they speak correctly the truth, and more so by any proper example. It is also about giving honor when due and learning much from “our” 2000 year HIStory. At least may we act in that ideal as much as possible, by His good graces.

Blessings

 

[benhur]

You are still not presenting your case, ben. Other than criticizing, you have not offered correction.

Sorry Isaiah,
I thought we were talking about Scriptures role and only indirectly forms of governance(at least I was). Anyways not sure what you want, as in “form” of episcopal, presbyterian or congregational forms of governance , or roles of councils ?. In all forms Scripture has same role,in my opinion.

Blessings

 

[commenter]

Hi Commenter. Yes I had a little problem understanding also .or at least I had to read it a few times.

When I spend too much time on CAF, my wording gets more difficult to follow. In a typical post lately I write points A, C, and E, forgetting that you can’t read points B and D, which are only in my mind.
I am making the Divine Mercy Novena this week, as are many Catholics. It includes not only the novena, but Mass, healing service, Benediction, and talks. It is offered at a service type mission that works with the poor in a hundred ways, but also fully affirms - yes - the Magisterium. It is in a brutal impoverished, high crime neighborhood. A number of laity live and lay down their lives here full time, and many others, including me, volunteer for a weekly shift and hope their car is still there when they escape back home to the burbs.

If there were more places like this, the Church would not have lost half of my sons’ generation. This is a place where many people come into the Catholic Church, even though they have no computer to view my careful apologetic reasoning.

 

[steido01]

While the Orthodox would agree with the bulk of this, they would not reduce it to simply being where the Gospel is rightly taught and the Sacraments rightly administered. In the case of the latter, the Sacraments are only rightly administered when a Bishop 1)in succession from the Apostles is presiding over the liturgy.

Agreed.

This is just as necessary, since the Bishops only celebrate the liturgy if they are 2)divinely appointed by Christ through the Church;

Again, agreed.

that is not the case if the individual has no valid ordination.

I understand that Orthodox and Catholics would hold that the typical Lutheran method of ordination (presbyter) is not in keeping with Apostolic Succession – and I don’t understand why not. Why separate 1) from 2) ? You admit that the power to ordain belongs to the church, yet you simultaneously deny the church exercise of this power? We’ve seen how the early church did not follow the exact same means of appointing successors each and every time, and the most rudimentary version of today’s monarchical model was not used at all until the end the first century. So how can the mode of ordination really matter, so long as A)the church calls and ordains, B)the one, holy, catholic, and apostolic faith is intended to be maintained by the one being ordained, and C)the ordained is confirmed through the laying on of hands by the already-ordained? I can understand a quibble over B), but why should the mode itself matter?

We would agree that the Church is the assembly of the saints; The Latin Church, where “church” ordinarily means the Magisterium in communion with the Pope, is not a point of referent for us. For us, it is the entire People of God.

This is perhaps our greatest point of agreement.

No, it is not enough. The rites and ceremonies that the article dismisses, are just as apostolic and necessary as the Gospel and the Sacraments themselves. It’s impossible to render them asunder in such a manner, as if they bear no relation to other apostolic Traditions. While they may differ with respect to the culture that celebrates them, they are just as necessary.

I understand the necessity of the Sacraments (indeed, a sinner like me understands the need well!). What I don’t understand is why Orthodox and Catholics demand that the tradition/human-made components of the rites be uniform in number and application, when it is God Who works through them. Where do you draw the line when it comes to cultural differences? Must stoles be cut a certain length? Chasubles a certain width? Seasonal paraments the exact color shade? Phylacteries to a uniform broadness? Tassels to a perfect enlargement? What rationality is behind the arbitrary lines?

 

[benhur]

When I spend too much time on CAF, my wording gets more difficult to follow. In a typical post lately I write points A, C, and E, forgetting that you can’t read points B and D, which are only in my mind.
I am making the Divine Mercy Novena this week, as are many Catholics. It includes not only the novena, but Mass, healing service, Benediction, and talks. It is offered at a service type mission that works with the poor in a hundred ways, but also fully affirms - yes - the Magisterium. It is in a brutal impoverished, high crime neighborhood. A number of laity live and lay down their lives here full time, and many others, including me, volunteer for a weekly shift and hope their car is still there when they escape back home to the burbs.

If there were more places like this, the Church would not have lost half of my sons’ generation. This is a place where many people come into the Catholic Church, even though they have no computer to view my careful apologetic reasoning.

Cary on brother, and yes, preaching, reaching without words. Just remembered had my stereo ripped off and my car ripped off once in similar situation.

 

[Isaiah45_9]

Sorry Isaiah,
I thought we were talking about Scriptures role and only indirectly forms of governance(at least I was). Anyways not sure what you want, as in “form” of episcopal, presbyterian or congregational forms of governance , or roles of councils ?. In all forms Scripture has same role,in my opinion.

Blessings

We are talking about Scriptures role in Church government. Both Orthodox and Catholic follow this Scriptural model. You say they have it wrong.

What is the correct Scriptural model of Church government and how are both Orthodox and Catholic wrong?

 

[benhur]

We are talking about Scriptures role in Church government. Both Orthodox and Catholic follow this Scriptural model. You say they have it wrong.

What is the correct Scriptural model of Church government and how are both Orthodox and Catholic wrong?

Quickly, the defined role of scripture may have changed, evolved partly due not to scriptures, but the defined role of the church, or even councils (by the church) and in particular as being the final arbiter of truth, including scriptural truth and that infallibly. The question then came how to dialogue with an infallible church/council in a perceived error but with the only unchanged, unevolved source left , scripture ? Yet this was done in “church”, magisterial and as much as possible, council fashion (“confessions” etc). You may say and perhaps partly right, that reformers really used same model, just that they attached no inerrancy except to scriptures themselves.

One might say that leads to further division with such a "checked’ central authority, but even with your model there was division (C and O).

I guess I am saying the roles,models have not been static