Sola Scriptura - a Syllogism on 2nd Tim 3:16-17

[Old_Scholar]

epostle

As a protestant I believe in tradition as well, but the tradition the apostles believed in and the tradition the early church leaders believed in. None of them believed tradition could trump Scripture and none of them believed tradition was equal to or could override Scripture. They all also knew that any tradition that would contradict Scripture or that involved any matters of faith or morals was bad tradition and we were warned about that type tradition. The tradition of men.

Nothing the apostles taught that involved faith, salvation, morals or anything that could be considered Scripture was taught by them. If so, then I say prove it.

You said:

**

If you study the writings of Polycarp, Ignatius, Clement, Barnabas, Justin Martyr, Papias, and Mathetes, you will find that none of them taught in opposition to these Traditions but in fact believed them.

**

I challenge you to post any reference Polycarp, Ignatius, Clement, Barnabas, Justin Marytr, Papias or Mathetes, made in preaching anything that was not from written Scripture.

Notice that the 27 books that are in our New Testament are the same 27 books written prior to 100 A.D. and nothing written since has been considered part of the Bible. All these books were well circulated throughout the churches within the first century and all Christians were quite familiar with them. It was the other books that were written that were not inspired or claimed to be written by an apostle or eyewitness to Christ, such as the Gospel of Thomas, that was rejected. None of them were ever taught in the churches but became the basis of many heretics try and adopt in their churches. Irenæus had a great deal to say about those heretics.

Heresy was considered anything that could not be proven by written Scripture, and that would include such things as “so-called” oral revelations from God. Study your own church history and **you will find that the first couple of centuries, the church leaders were all Sola Scriptura teachers and would not teach anything they could not prove in Scripture. ** It was the heretics that developed Sola Ecclesia.

It was those things that came from the Apocrypha and Apocryphal books that were heresies. That’s why the RCC called them “deutero-canonical” books and did not canonize them until after Martin Luther and the Reformation. They included such false doctrines as: praying to the dead, the Immaculate Conception of Mary, Purgatory, the perpetual virginity of Mary, Limbo and others.

1 Cor 11:2 pertains to the ordinances Paul had just delivered to the Corinthians in this epistle. There is nothing to indicate any oral revelations.

2 Thess 3:14 And if any man obey not our word by this epistle, note that man, and have no company with him, that he may be ashamed.

Unfortunately **when the Catholic English Bible was translated, it had to read differently in this verse or else the RCC could not claim it referred to oral traditions. ** As you can see, it reads differently in the KJV and in fact all the other English versions. Your Douay-Rheims version has been changed.

**

1. The importance of Oral Tradition is great. This is seen by the fact that St. Paul tells us to listen to and obey Tradition (that is Divine Tradition, not human customs) as Scripture. He even tells us that people who do not follow this Divine Oral Tradition are to be shunned (2 Thess 3:14).

**

Your statement is certainly false as Paul did not say that at all.

Traditions of men that are not supported by the written word of God are inventions of man and do not reflect what happened. The RCC tries to prove traditions with tradition. That can’t happen. We must believe God and not what some man has said. God was sure to write all His commandments and doctrines down in order for us to know what is truth. Who do you want to believe? What was said or written by some man or what was written by God? How can you possible know God said something that He did not make sure was written down? Should you believe a pope who may have bought his office?

We have to believe God’s own testimony. Why? Because He is the only one that is infallible and true.

Numbers 23:19 "God is not a man, that He should lie, Nor a son of man, that He should repent. Has He said, and will He not do? Or has He spoken, and will He not make it good?

Hebrews 6:17 Thus God, determining to show more abundantly to the heirs of promise the immutability of His counsel, confirmed it by an oath, 18) that by two immutable things, in which it is impossible for God to lie, we might have strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold of the hope set before us.

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[Old_Scholar]

(cont’d)

Peter knew this and his words were recorded in the book of the Acts.

• Acts 5:29 But Peter and the other apostles answered and said: "We ought to obey God rather than men.”*

Both the Bible and tradition teach that our convictions are not to be based upon human wisdom but upon the power of God and His Spirit which He gives to those who obey Him. Human wisdom is clearly fallible and is not a sufficient foundation for believing anything about God. Our doctrines cannot be based upon human wisdom and without written doctrines, we cannot trust what we are told. Paul knew this because of the written Word of God.

*1Corinthians 2:5 That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.

1Co 3:18 Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise. 19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness. *

There are two forms of tradition illustrated in the Bible. They are:

1. The traditions of men – which nullify Scriptures or are not supported by the holy writ.
2. The traditions from God which are in accord with, and recorded in, Scripture.

There are warnings against any traditions, or laws that are in opposition to, contradictory to, that nullify or do away with, God’s commands as written in the Scriptural record. They are inventions of men—alone, apart from God. We must be extremely cautious of traditions passed down through time, even those from our own forefathers or elders.

*1 Peter 1:18-19, “Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:” *

*Colossians 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. *

Matthew 15:2 Why do thy disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? for they wash not their hands when they eat bread.3 But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition? 4) For God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death. 5) But ye say, Whosoever shall say to his father or his mother, It is a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; 6) And honour not his father or his mother, he shall be free. Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition. 7) Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying, 8) This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me. 9) But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

We have to learn from that that Scripture determines whether tradition is acceptable.

*Mark 7:8 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do. 9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition. *

This is a strong warning against any tradition or law that causes any transgression or nullification of God’s laws.

2 Thessalonians 3:6 Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us. 7) For yourselves know how ye ought to follow us: for we behaved not ourselves disorderly among you;

What was the tradition of the apostles? It was the same tradition they learned from both the Scriptures and the Lord Jesus Christ. Are not the ways of God outlined in the Old Testament and did not Jesus adhere to, and even expound upon, in the New Testament? He certainly did.

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[Old_Scholar]

(cont’d)

The apostles taught these precepts both verbally and written, just as any preacher would today, speaking of a Scripture and then expounding upon it. It is the Scripture that gives credence to the speaker. The words spoken have to be in accord with the Scripture or the person is not to be listened to.

The oral precepts and the written had to agree. They were both the same and taught by either method. There was nothing taught that contradicted the other. One did not contain information that the other didn’t. God’s word is true whether spoken or written and thanks be to Him that the spoken words of God that we needed to know, along with the spoken words of the prophets , were written down into scrolls that would later comprise the Old Testament. He also gave us the spoken words of Jesus and the apostles in written form. Never verbally only.

Proverbs 30:5 Every word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him. 6) Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.

It is not alright to add traditions to God’s word. The traditions of Christ and the apostles are things that would be recorded in Scripture. Can you imagine the four gospel writers would fail to mention such things beyond what is faithfully written? Paul, Peter, James and Jude all fail to mention things added to the word of God so can we believe that there were any words added? What principle would they have to do so? Why would they do so having learned on the subject from the Old Testament?

What was it Christ warned John about in Revelation?

*Revelation 22:18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: 19) And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book. *

This is not some minor, trivial point of theological dispute. **God says in His word, more than once, that your faith is not to rest in human wisdom. **Not to add your own thoughts, or subtract from His thoughts. If a tradition is not recorded in the Bible, then is it not an addition?

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[Old_Scholar]

(cont’d)

Jesus Christ always appealed to Scripture when arguing with His opponents. He said often, “It is written!” or “Have you not read?” His statements show that He held Scripture in very high regard.

John 10:34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? 35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;

The evidence shows that Jesus always used Scripture as the final court of appeal in every matter under dispute. In talking with the Pharisees on their high view of tradition, He said, as we already read, “Thus you nullify the word of God by your tradition…”(Mark 7:13)

When he was tested by the Sadducees concerning the resurrection, we read of His position on the weight of the Scriptures:

Mark 12:24 And Jesus answering said unto them, Do ye not therefore err, because ye know not the scriptures, neither the power of God?

When He was tempted by the devil, he responded three times with the phrase, “It is written.”

It is clear Jesus used Scripture as the supreme authority and subjected Himself to it.

Luke 24:44 Then He said to them, “These are the words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things must be fulfilled which were written in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms concerning Me.” 45) And He opened their understanding, that they might comprehend the Scriptures. 46) Then He said to them, "Thus it is written, and thus it was necessary for the Christ to suffer and to rise from the dead the third day, 47) "and that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in His name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

As followers of Christ, we ought to follow His example. His example alone should be witness enough for any Christian to believe that the Scriptures are called the Word of God and carry His authority.

Paul says, “If any man thinks himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him take knowledge of the things which I write unto you, that they are the commandment of the Lord.”(1 Cor 14:37)

Even the apostles called for the church to test their own instruction according to the written revelation of God according to the Scriptures, which they had.

To even think that Jesus Christ would allow mere man to pass down the word of the apostles is inconceivable. Throughout His life, he expounded on the Scriptures and used them as proof of what He was saying. He would not have allowed the changing and adding to the Scriptures that are so common by some today.

We must ask ourselves this: Are the Scriptures sufficient for all we need to know about our faith? Certainly if we believe Scripture at all, then we must believe that because the Scriptures themselves tell us they are sufficient. If the Scriptures are not sufficient, then tradition goes out the door, because it is Scripture that tells us of tradition. Since we can’t have it both ways, then we have to believe Scripture.

(end)

 

[Romulus]

(cont’d)

Jesus Christ always appealed to Scripture when arguing with His opponents. He said often, “It is written!” or “Have you not read?” His statements show that He held Scripture in very high regard.

John 10:34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? 35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;

The evidence shows that Jesus always used Scripture as the final court of appeal in every matter under dispute. In talking with the Pharisees on their high view of tradition, He said, as we already read, “Thus you nullify the word of God by your tradition…”(Mark 7:13)

When he was tested by the Sadducees concerning the resurrection, we read of His position on the weight of the Scriptures:

Mark 12:24 And Jesus answering said unto them, Do ye not therefore err, because ye know not the scriptures, neither the power of God?

When He was tempted by the devil, he responded three times with the phrase, “It is written.”

It is clear Jesus used Scripture as the supreme authority and subjected Himself to it.

Luke 24:44 Then He said to them, “These are the words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things must be fulfilled which were written in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms concerning Me.” 45) And He opened their understanding, that they might comprehend the Scriptures. 46) Then He said to them, "Thus it is written, and thus it was necessary for the Christ to suffer and to rise from the dead the third day, 47) "and that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in His name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

As followers of Christ, we ought to follow His example. His example alone should be witness enough for any Christian to believe that the Scriptures are called the Word of God and carry His authority.

Paul says, “If any man thinks himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him take knowledge of the things which I write unto you, that they are the commandment of the Lord.”(1 Cor 14:37)

Even the apostles called for the church to test their own instruction according to the written revelation of God according to the Scriptures, which they had.

To even think that Jesus Christ would allow mere man to pass down the word of the apostles is inconceivable. Throughout His life, he expounded on the Scriptures and used them as proof of what He was saying. He would not have allowed the changing and adding to the Scriptures that are so common by some today.

We must ask ourselves this: Are the Scriptures sufficient for all we need to know about our faith? Certainly if we believe Scripture at all, then we must believe that because the Scriptures themselves tell us they are sufficient. If the Scriptures are not sufficient, then tradition goes out the door, because it is Scripture that tells us of tradition. Since we can’t have it both ways, then we have to believe Scripture.

(end)

A lot of interesting information Old Scholar…but it is not anything new…not that it is no good.

Since you didn’t care for using “formal logic” and clearly state your premises and conclusions…i need time to dissect your reply and find any logical fallacies and/or statements that cause scripture to contradict itself. So I’ll get back with you…this is good training in logic.

 

[SD_Catholic]

(cont’d)

Jesus Christ always appealed to Scripture when arguing with His opponents. He said often, “It is written!” or “Have you not read?” His statements show that He held Scripture in very high regard.

John 10:34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? 35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;

The evidence shows that Jesus always used Scripture as the final court of appeal in every matter under dispute. In talking with the Pharisees on their high view of tradition, He said, as we already read, “Thus you nullify the word of God by your tradition…”(Mark 7:13)

When he was tested by the Sadducees concerning the resurrection, we read of His position on the weight of the Scriptures:

Mark 12:24 And Jesus answering said unto them, Do ye not therefore err, because ye know not the scriptures, neither the power of God?

When He was tempted by the devil, he responded three times with the phrase, “It is written.”

It is clear Jesus used Scripture as the supreme authority and subjected Himself to it.

Luke 24:44 Then He said to them, “These are the words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things must be fulfilled which were written in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms concerning Me.” 45) And He opened their understanding, that they might comprehend the Scriptures. 46) Then He said to them, "Thus it is written, and thus it was necessary for the Christ to suffer and to rise from the dead the third day, 47) "and that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in His name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

As followers of Christ, we ought to follow His example. His example alone should be witness enough for any Christian to believe that the Scriptures are called the Word of God and carry His authority.

Paul says, “If any man thinks himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him take knowledge of the things which I write unto you, that they are the commandment of the Lord.”(1 Cor 14:37)

Even the apostles called for the church to test their own instruction according to the written revelation of God according to the Scriptures, which they had.

To even think that Jesus Christ would allow mere man to pass down the word of the apostles is inconceivable. Throughout His life, he expounded on the Scriptures and used them as proof of what He was saying. He would not have allowed the changing and adding to the Scriptures that are so common by some today.

We must ask ourselves this: Are the Scriptures sufficient for all we need to know about our faith? Certainly if we believe Scripture at all, then we must believe that because the Scriptures themselves tell us they are sufficient. If the Scriptures are not sufficient, then tradition goes out the door, because it is Scripture that tells us of tradition. Since we can’t have it both ways, then we have to believe Scripture.

(end)

If we don’t need Sacred Tradition and the Church to help teach us what wasn’t written and help us understand what was written than you should be able to tell me which Protestant denomination finally got it right, or if not a denomination atleast which interpretation I should go with… Thanks

 

[epostle]

Jesus condemns one single tradition that was invented by certain Jews who claimed to give all the glory to God by not giving due honor to their parents. Notice that Jesus says “YOUR tradition…”

Mark 7 :11
And he said to them, “You have a fine way of rejecting the commandment of God, in order to keep YOUR tradition!
[10] For Moses said, Honor your father and your mother'; and, He who speaks evil of father or mother, let him surely die’;
[11] but you say, `If a man tells his father or his mother, What you would have gained from me is Corban’ (that is, given to God) –
[12] then you no longer permit him to do anything for his father or mother,
[13] thus making void the word of God through YOUR tradition which you hand on. And many such things you do.”
The claim that Jesus is condemning all tradition is an abuse of scripture and ignorance of its meaning as Jesus was a Jew and taught according to Jewish Tradition.