Sola scriptura advocates: Acts 15, & doctrinal guidance?

[babyfacegangsta]

wussup yall,
The Bible claims that its the final authority, but The 1994 Catechism of the Catholic Church declares:

“It is clear therefore that, in the supremely wise arrangement of God, sacred Tradition, Sacred Scripture, and the Magisterium of the Church are so connected and associated that one of them cannot stand without the others. Working together, each in its own way, under the action of the one Holy Spirit, they all contribute effectively to the salvation of souls.” (Pg. 29, #95)

According to this passage, the Scriptures, church tradition (teachings handed down through the ages), and the Magisterium (the task of giving an authentic interpretation of the Word of God) are all equal in importance.

According to Catholic doctrine, church tradition and the magisterium are just as much the Word of God as are the written Scriptures:

"Sacred Scripture is the speech of God as it is put down in writing under the breath of the Holy Spirit. And (Holy) Tradition transmits in its entirety the Word of God which has been entrusted to the apostles by Christ the Lord and the Holy Spirit. " (Pg. 26, #81)
The obvious question is, what happens when these three “final authorities” disagree with each other? The Catechism gives this answer:

“The task of giving an authentic interpretation of the Word of God, whether in its written form or in the form of Tradition, has been entrusted to the living, teaching office of the Church alone. This means that the task of interpretation has been entrusted to the bishops in communion with the successor of Peter, the Bishop of Rome.” (Pg. 27, #85)

The Catechism repeats the same doctrine using different words:

“For, of course, all that has been said about the manner of interpreting Scripture is ultimately subject to the judgment of the Church which exercises the divinely conferred commission and ministry of watching over and interpreting the Word of God.” (Pg. 34, #119)

Does the Bible agree?
If the Bible, tradition and the teachings of the Catholic church are all, in fact, the Word of God, then the Bible will concur with this teaching. Does it? God declares in the Bible that His written Word always has been, and always will be perfect:

“Thy word is true from the beginning: and every one of thy righteous judgments endureth for ever.” Psalm 119:160

The Bible boldly declares that it is the only final authority:

“Sanctify them through thy truth:thy word is truth.” John 17:17
In the book of Revelation, God delivers this blistering warning about tampering with His written Word:

“For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.” Revelation 22:18-19

Paul admonishes believers to avoid anyone who teaches doctrines contrary to the written Scriptures. He also reveals the consequences of believing such false teachings:
“But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.” Galatians 1:8
Thus, when doctrine contradicts God’s written Word, those who side against the Holy Scriptures will be “accursed.”

God pronounces that His Word was written once and has been forever settled:

“… the word of our God shall stand for ever.” Isaiah 40:8

God’s Word is perfect

“The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul…” Psalm 19:7

“… no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.” 2 Peter 1:21
Where does God want people to obtain their doctrine… from the Bible or somwher else?
“All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:” 2 Timothy 3:16
Paul is not alluding to the magisterium or church tradition here because the previous verse reads:
“And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.” 2 Timothy 3:15
Since the Catholic church was not yet in existence when Paul penned these words, he could not have been referring to the teachings of Catholicism.

As these and hundreds of other scripture verses make plain, God never gave anyone the authority to add to or change His Word. It’s perfect and complete, just as He wrote it.

One of the first questions you must answer for yourself is, "Did God violate all these Scriptures by giving the pope and the Catholic church the right to change His Word, though He said He never would

While Jesus walked the earth, He publicly rebuked the Pharisees, the religious leaders of his day:

“Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men…” Mark 7:7-8
Jesus was upset that the Pharisees had elevated their tradition above God’s Word
Though these religious leaders obeyed all the rules of their religion, look what Jesus said awaited them:

“Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?” Matthew 23:33
When the Pharisees asked Jesus why His disciples transgressed the traditions of the elders, Jesus answered them with a question of His own:
to be cont…

 

[babyfacegangsta]

…continuation

“Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?” Matthew 15:3
Jesus always elevated the Scriptures above traditions:

“Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.” Matthew 22:29
God’s unchanging Word has always been the final authority, never the traditions of men:

“Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.” Colossians 2:8
Christians in New Testament times knew what the final authority was:

“These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.” Acts 17:11
To determine if what they had heard was true, these people went to the final authority, the written Scriptures. Jesus says of His Words:

Consider these words from Paul:
“For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God…” 1 Thessalonians 2:13
When Paul preached the Word of God to these people, it was not Catholic doctrine because Catholicism didn’t exist yet.

“And Jesus answering said unto them, Do ye not therefore err, because ye know not the scriptures, neither the power of God?” Mark 12:24
Why did Jesus chastise the Sadducees for not knowing the Scriptures if it was impossible for them to interpret the scriptures or scriptual things?
And why did Peter declare the following?

“Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.” 2 Peter 1:20
Why does Paul instruct us to study the Bible if we can’t interpret what it says?
“Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.” 2 Timothy 2:15
Jesus admonished the Jews to:

“Search the scriptures…” John 5:39
Why would He do that, if He knew they couldn’t interpret them?

Who does the interpreting?

The Bible reveals that the Holy Spirit, not just a group of men(fathers of the church), will interpret Scripture for God’s children and will help them to understand all things:

“But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.” John 14:26
“Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth…” John 16:13

The Apostle Paul recognized that the Holy Spirit was the One who taught him:that same Holy Spirit is in every one of Gods Child.
“Which things also we speak, not in the words which man’s wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.” 1 Corinthians 2:13

The following verses of Scripture should alarm anyone who believes they need a church or anyone else to interpret/discern things for them:

“These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you. But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie , and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.” 1 John 2:26-27

in the last day God is not gonna judge us based on any other than HIS WORD…nobody is gonna be able to say “cuz ma pastor,rabbi,leader,parents,or church said this and that”…
God will only judge us based on His word(which HE has exalted above ALL things).and He will judge us individually and we cant point fingers

what do u guys think?..Grace and peace yall

 

[RedDawgMCM]

That doesn’t matter, since the Holy Spirit clearly knew more was to be written.

That seems to me to be really abusing the text. Sure the Holy Spirit knew more was to be written. But I don’t think He told St. Paul that.

In other words I don’t think St. Paul wrote with an idea of Sola Scriptura because he had some divine knowledge that the Spirit had other books to inspire.

On a slightly different topic and not to hijack the thread but how is it that so many SS advocates and Protestants will read the Early Church Fathers thinking they will find support for SS and other Protestant ideas and then end up converting because it isn’t there…not the least of which being John Henry Cardinal Newman

 

[PbloPicasso]

That seems to me to be really abusing the text. Sure the Holy Spirit knew more was to be written. But I don’t think He told St. Paul that.

In other words I don’t think St. Paul wrote with an idea of Sola Scriptura because he had some divine knowledge that the Spirit had other books to inspire.

On a slightly different topic and not to hijack the thread but how is it that so many SS advocates and Protestants will read the Early Church Fathers thinking they will find support for SS and other Protestant ideas and then end up converting because it isn’t there…not the least of which being John Henry Cardinal Newman

There are many that have converted to Protestantism having read at least some of these writings. Some of them are Catholcis I see that believe they are preachers now. I was one of them long ago but the more solo scriptura I became the more I realized the limitations of that belief and the inconsistencies applied from those faiths that pushed such beliefs. But I do understand how and why they teach such heresy. Most of them simply don’t know as much as they profess to know. Some do and may be held culpable for their choices down the road. That’s up to God. They hide behind the idea of “why would God allow the scripture to be written and it not, in and of itself, be enough to please him?” They don’t seem to realize Judaism and the sects within that faith as well, the faith from which we were born from Jesus’ coming. The best things is to keep open dialogue going and hope and pray for the best outcome. One day we will all know that we are all Catholic, not that we practice it, but that God wills all of us to be in His presence in the Unity of the Holy Spirit manifested by His incarnation in Christ that established the Church (if that makes sense). Church authority is really interesting when you really give it significant thought, like me. It makes sense to me now after I matured and learned scripture, history, ancient fathers, Church teaching and frankly philosophical thought.

 

[Roman_Catholic_1]

Hello babyface. Welcome to the forums. I had written a response to your post but it all got erased. No matter. I think this is a better place to start:

What does Sola Scriptura mean to you and how is it applied in your faith?

God bless

…continuation

“Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?” Matthew 15:3
Jesus always elevated the Scriptures above traditions:

“Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.” Matthew 22:29
God’s unchanging Word has always been the final authority, never the traditions of men:

“Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.” Colossians 2:8
Christians in New Testament times knew what the final authority was:

“These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.” Acts 17:11
To determine if what they had heard was true, these people went to the final authority, the written Scriptures. Jesus says of His Words:

Consider these words from Paul:
“For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God…” 1 Thessalonians 2:13
When Paul preached the Word of God to these people, it was not Catholic doctrine because Catholicism didn’t exist yet.

“And Jesus answering said unto them, Do ye not therefore err, because ye know not the scriptures, neither the power of God?” Mark 12:24
Why did Jesus chastise the Sadducees for not knowing the Scriptures if it was impossible for them to interpret the scriptures or scriptual things?
And why did Peter declare the following?

“Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.” 2 Peter 1:20
Why does Paul instruct us to study the Bible if we can’t interpret what it says?
“Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.” 2 Timothy 2:15
Jesus admonished the Jews to:

“Search the scriptures…” John 5:39
Why would He do that, if He knew they couldn’t interpret them?

Who does the interpreting?

The Bible reveals that the Holy Spirit, not just a group of men(fathers of the church), will interpret Scripture for God’s children and will help them to understand all things:

“But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.” John 14:26
“Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth…” John 16:13

The Apostle Paul recognized that the Holy Spirit was the One who taught him:that same Holy Spirit is in every one of Gods Child.
“Which things also we speak, not in the words which man’s wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.” 1 Corinthians 2:13

The following verses of Scripture should alarm anyone who believes they need a church or anyone else to interpret/discern things for them:

“These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you. But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie , and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.” 1 John 2:26-27

in the last day God is not gonna judge us based on any other than HIS WORD…nobody is gonna be able to say “cuz ma pastor,rabbi,leader,parents,or church said this and that”…
God will only judge us based on His word(which HE has exalted above ALL things).and He will judge us individually and we cant point fingers

what do u guys think?..Grace and peace yall

 

[babyfacegangsta]

Hello babyface. Welcome to the forums. I had written a response to your post but it all got erased. No matter. I think this is a better place to start:

What does Sola Scriptura mean to you and how is it applied in your faith?

God bless

WHATEVER DOCTRINE(from wereva or whoeva) IS GIVEN SHOULD FALL IN LINE WITH OR NOT CONTRADICT THE WORD OF GOD…dats all am sayin…lol

 

[Roman_Catholic_1]

WHATEVER DOCTRINE(from wereva or whoeva) IS GIVEN SHOULD FALL IN LINE WITH OR NOT CONTRADICT THE WORD OF GOD…dats all am sayin…lol

Alright. This is a looser definition of SS that I have seen. I’m glad I asked. By your definition the Catholic Church practices SS since our faith “falls in line” and does not contradict Scripture which was the only two criteria you included. Sure you will say some of our beliefs do not “fall in line” with your interpretation but what is that to us? Like you said:

…nobody is gonna be able to say “cuz ma pastor,rabbi,leader,parents,or church said this and that”…

Can we include you in that quote?

God bless you

 

[babyfacegangsta]

Alright. This is a looser definition of SS that I have seen. I’m glad I asked. By your definition the Catholic Church practices SS since our faith “falls in line” and does not contradict Scripture which was the only two criteria you included. Sure you will say some of our beliefs do not “fall in line” with your interpretation but what is that to us? Like you said:

Can we include you in that quote?

God bless you

of course…God is not gonna ask u wut i told u…all He will ask u will be based on His word …so u have to be thoroughly adept with THE WORD OF THE LORD ONLY…testing every other thing by it before accepting it(just as they did in acts)

 

[Roman_Catholic_1]

of course…God is not gonna ask u wut i told u…all He will ask u will be based on His word …so u have to be thoroughly adept with THE WORD OF THE LORD…

This sounds like a work babyface… but that is for a different thread

Was there anything else you had questions on?

God bless

 

[babyfacegangsta]

This sounds like a work babyface… but that is for a different thread

Was there anything else you had questions on?

God bless

what sounds like a work?..i dont get u?

 

[Roman_Catholic_1]

what sounds like a work?..i dont get u?

That’s alright. It was for a different thread anyway. If you have time give this article a read and, if you feel up to it, share your thoughts on it:

modernreformation.org/default.php?page=articledisplay&var1=ArtRead&var2=19&var3=main

How well does this match with your belief of SS?

God bless

 

[JohnnyReb]

That seems to me to be really abusing the text. Sure the Holy Spirit knew more was to be written. But I don’t think He told St. Paul that.

In other words I don’t think St. Paul wrote with an idea of Sola Scriptura because he had some divine knowledge that the Spirit had other books to inspire.

On a slightly different topic and not to hijack the thread but how is it that so many SS advocates and Protestants will read the Early Church Fathers thinking they will find support for SS and other Protestant ideas and then end up converting because it isn’t there…not the least of which being John Henry Cardinal Newman

I guess they don’t do good enough research, but the support is there. Newman converted, as did Tolkien, but CS Lewis made a very concious decision not to convert to Rome because it was not necessary for him. SS and Sola Fide are cleary found in the early church writings. When I point that out with direct quotations, as I did in another thread, all I get is that I am reading Protestant theology into the texts. Darned if you, darned if you don’t.

The idea of abusing the text (whatever that means) kind of goes along those lines. I never said that Paul had the idea of SS, but only that the Holy Spirit, who inspired his words, did. Its debatable whether Paul even knew at times that he was writing scripture or that 2000 years later, we would be reading his words. But the Holy Spirit knew, and was working through him and his correspondance, to give us divine revelation.

 

[ckempston]

I guess they don’t do good enough research, but the support is there. Newman converted, as did Tolkien, but CS Lewis made a very concious decision not to convert to Rome because it was not necessary for him. SS and Sola Fide are cleary found in the early church writings. When I point that out with direct quotations, as I did in another thread, all I get is that I am reading Protestant theology into the texts. Darned if you, darned if you don’t.

The idea of abusing the text (whatever that means) kind of goes along those lines. I never said that Paul had the idea of SS, but only that the Holy Spirit, who inspired his words, did. Its debatable whether Paul even knew at times that he was writing scripture or that 2000 years later, we would be reading his words. But the Holy Spirit knew, and was working through him and his correspondance, to give us divine revelation.

Good points. I think Irenaeus’ statement gives good support to at least a form of Sola Scriptura, or possibly just the primacy of Scripture in Against Heresies 3.1.1:

We have learned from none others the plan of our salvation, than from those through whom the Gospel has come down to us, which they did at one time proclaim in public, and, at a later period, by the will of God, handed down to us in the Scriptures, to be the ground and pillar of our faith. For it is unlawful to assert that they preached before they possessed “perfect knowledge,” as some do even venture to say, boasting themselves as improvers of the apostles

This says to me, basically, everything the Apostles taught orally was written down, doing significant damage to the idea of an independent, and different “tradition” in oral form. It is also interesting to see that phrase “improvers of the apostles” which perfectly describes what “Traditions” attempt to do.

 

[babyfacegangsta]

GOD THE FATHER loves u soo soo much that He sent GOD THE SON to come down to die for ALLLLLL your sins AT ONCE only so that you will be redeemed and restored to Gods original plan of Him fellowshiping with His creation as His own…so when u get saved by GRACE through FAITH alone GOD THE HOLY SPIRIT comes to abide or dwell in u forever and HE HIMSELF will fellowship with u like He had always wanted and longed to do since the fall of man …and HE(GOD) HIMSELF will teach u all u need to know about HIMSELF and HIS TRUTH…SO GOD longs for an INTIMATE and PERSONAL relationship with u the individual…the more intimate your relationship with HIM the more HE reveals HIMSELF and HIS TRUTH TO YOU…so y not forget about what someone is telling you about GOD or y not forget learning about what GOD wants from you from man and focus on getting to know what GOD wants from u FROM HE HIMSELF…from HIM THE TRIUNE GOD(THE FATHER-creator;THE SON-the word of God HImself,Emmanuel-God Himself revealed unto us; and THE HOLY SPIRIT- the one whom GOD THE FATHER and GOD THE SON did nothing without,the one who came upon holy men to reveal Himself,His Love and His requirements to us in writing,the one who inspired and knows the EXACT INTERPRETATIONS OF ALL HIS INSPIRED SCRIPTURE)

So knowing that God himself wants to show you the true HIM,the true meaning of His BREATHED word,and His TRUE LOVE which you need…y dont you put everybody and everything else aside and GET TO KNOW HIM FROM HIM…
If GOD desired that you will get to TRULY know HIM from other people then there will be no need for HIM to deem it necessary to come and abide in u in the form of GOD THE HOLY SPIRIT in order to lead you HIMSELF into all of HIS OWN TRUTHS that HE gives.
He will not deem it needed ,because no matter what, you will get to now HIM TRULY by taking in from man and not by DEEPLY FELLOWSHIPING with HIM.

THE ALL KNOWING GOD, knowing that man is imperfect,will, in ALL HIS GOODNESS AND LOVE, never leave the ULTIMATE BEAUTY of knowing HIM to imperfect men but will BY ALL MEANS want ABOVE ALL THINGS to convey that message and knowledge to us by HIMSELF in ALL HIS PERFECTION…thus GOD THE HOLY SPIRIT is sent BY GOD THE FATHER per request of GOD THE SON to dwell in every individual believer, when you get saved, and to give you the individual guidance into HIS TRUTH and a PERSONAL revelation of HIMSELF according to your intimacy with HIM…

KNOWING THIS TRUTH FOR YOURSELF…y not start solely by what we all agree to be the BREATHED and INSPIRED WORD OF GOD and exhaust it to the FULLESTsense…when you have fully exhausted it(which is impossible since GOD is inexhaustible),THEN you can turn to another you deem INSPIRED BY THE SAME HOLY SPIRIT for more…NB:until total exhaustion of THE WORD of GOD additional material is not needed because HE WANTS US TO KNOW HIM FIRST AND FOREMOST FROM HIMSELF…

remember what paul said:

1Cor 11:1 Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ.

Paul admonished the people to follow him ONLY as he followed Christ…Paul understood that he was a mere man who was PRONE to make mistakes and fault in himself …so he was telling the people to follow him as he follows the doctrine of Christ,but as soon as he errs or faults in his following of Christ they should STOP following…They should only follow him when he is rightfully following Christ
The reason why Paul did so is because he understood the “INDIVIDUALITY” or the PERSONAL nature of the new covenant we have with GOD THE FATHER, in GOD THE SON , through GOD THE HOLY SPIRIT…

Grace and peace to you all

 

[AmateurPianist]

Perhaps if it were actually in scripture, then it would be easier to agree on a definition?

I don’t think a more clear definition of “final authority” would help, chiefly because it is not possible for a book to wield authority. The exercise of authority is restricted to persons, because it requires capabilities that only persons have.

I dunno about that.

As a musician, I would have no problem with the statement of the musical score as the final authority. I would also think that no musicians should have a problem with that statement either.

In music it means that if Beethoven wrote play C# in eighth notes, you as the musician do not have a right to change this to A flat in sixteenth notes. Or of Mozart wrote loud, you do not have a right to change it to soft just because you like it better.

That having been said, there are limitation and caveats if you want to use the term pertaining to a musical score. For starters there is much more to making music than notes and rhythm, and there are a number of issues that the score as the final authority just can not resolve.

And as I think about it, the limitations and caveats with the musical score as the final authority are very similar to the Bible as the final authority. Very similar in fact.

 

[babyfacegangsta]

That’s alright. It was for a different thread anyway. If you have time give this article a read and, if you feel up to it, share your thoughts on it:

modernreformation.org/default.php?page=articledisplay&var1=ArtRead&var2=19&var3=main

How well does this match with your belief of SS?

God bless

This is my belief in a nutshell

GOD THE FATHER loves u soo soo much that He sent GOD THE SON to come down to die for ALLLLLL your sins AT ONCE only so that you will be redeemed and restored to Gods original plan of Him fellowshiping with His creation as His own…so when u get saved by GRACE through FAITH alone GOD THE HOLY SPIRIT comes to abide or dwell in u forever and HE HIMSELF will fellowship with u like He had always wanted and longed to do since the fall of man …and HE(GOD) HIMSELF will teach u all u need to know about HIMSELF and HIS TRUTH…SO GOD longs for an INTIMATE and PERSONAL relationship with u the individual…the more intimate your relationship with HIM the more HE reveals HIMSELF and HIS TRUTH TO YOU…so y not forget about what someone is telling you about GOD or y not forget learning about what GOD wants from you from man and focus on getting to know what GOD wants from u FROM HE HIMSELF…from HIM THE TRIUNE GOD(THE FATHER-creator;THE SON-the word of God HImself,Emmanuel-God Himself revealed unto us; and THE HOLY SPIRIT- the one whom GOD THE FATHER and GOD THE SON did nothing without,the one who came upon holy men to reveal Himself,His Love and His requirements to us in writing,the one who inspired and knows the EXACT INTERPRETATIONS OF ALL HIS INSPIRED SCRIPTURE)

So knowing that God himself wants to show you the true HIM,the true meaning of His BREATHED word,and His TRUE LOVE which you need…y dont you put everybody and everything else aside and GET TO KNOW HIM FROM HIM…
If GOD desired that you will get to TRULY know HIM from other people then there will be no need for HIM to deem it necessary to come and abide in u in the form of GOD THE HOLY SPIRIT in order to lead you HIMSELF into all of HIS OWN TRUTHS that HE gives.
He will not deem it needed ,because no matter what, you will get to now HIM TRULY by taking in from man and not by DEEPLY FELLOWSHIPING with HIM.

THE ALL KNOWING GOD, knowing that man is imperfect,will, in ALL HIS GOODNESS AND LOVE, never leave the ULTIMATE BEAUTY of knowing HIM to imperfect men but will BY ALL MEANS want ABOVE ALL THINGS to convey that message and knowledge to us by HIMSELF in ALL HIS PERFECTION…thus GOD THE HOLY SPIRIT is sent BY GOD THE FATHER per request of GOD THE SON to dwell in every individual believer, when you get saved, and to give you the individual guidance into HIS TRUTH and a PERSONAL revelation of HIMSELF according to your intimacy with HIM…

KNOWING THIS TRUTH FOR YOURSELF…y not start solely by what we all agree to be the BREATHED and INSPIRED WORD OF GOD and exhaust it to the FULLESTsense…when you have fully exhausted it(which is impossible since GOD is inexhaustible),THEN you can turn to another you deem INSPIRED BY THE SAME HOLY SPIRIT for more…NB:until total exhaustion of THE WORD of GOD additional material is not needed because HE WANTS US TO KNOW HIM FIRST AND FOREMOST FROM HIMSELF…

remember what paul said:

1Cor 11:1 Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ.

Paul admonished the people to follow him ONLY as he followed Christ…Paul understood that he was a mere man who was PRONE to make mistakes and fault in himself …so he was telling the people to follow him as he follows the doctrine of Christ,but as soon as he errs or faults in his following of Christ they should STOP following…They should only follow him when he is rightfully following Christ
The reason why Paul did so is because he understood the “INDIVIDUALITY” or the PERSONAL nature of the new covenant we have with GOD THE FATHER, in GOD THE SON , through GOD THE HOLY SPIRIT…

Grace and peace to you

 

[elvisman]

I agree that scripture cannot contradict itself. But don’t lecture me about taking scripture in context. Explain how I am taking it out of context. You make that claim, so you must prove it.

Because you use 2 Tim. 3:16-17 and 1 Cor. 4:6 as evidence that Scripture contains all that we need for salvation. That is NOT what the Scriptures themselves teach, so the onus is upon YOU to prove it.

---

1 Cor. 4:6** is specifically warning against judging others and not to go beyond what he has admonished them to do in his writings on the subject. NOWHERE does it say that the written word is somehow superior to the oral. 2 Thess. 2:15 tells us that the oral is just as important and binding as the written.**
**
THAT’S why I pointed out your folly of taking the Scriptures out of context – because you did exactly that.**

Don’t chastize me for taking scripture in context, then turn around the prooftext yourself. As a Catholic, you are bound to interpret these in light of church teaching. I am not. Did Jesus every teach from tradition? No, but he made over 100 references to scripture.

**Jesus *****never ****taught from tradition? Wanna bet?
*****Here are some teachings from Jesus and the NT writers taken straight from ****ORAL ****Tradition:

Matt. 23:2-3
"The scribes and Pharisees sit on Moses’ seat; so practice and observe whatever they tell you, but not what they do; for they preach, but do not practice.”**

---

**Matt. 2:23
“…that what was spoken by the prophets might be fulfilled, ‘He shall be called a Nazarene.”
**
**1 Cor. 10:4
**“All drank the same supernatural drink. For they drank from the supernatural Rock which followed them, and the Rock was Christ.”

Jude 9
“When the archangel Michael, contending with the devil, disputed about the body of Moses, he did not presume to pronounce a reviling judgment upon him, but said, ‘The Lord rebuke you.”

Where do you get off making such a ludicrous claim?

Yes, the apostles were the leaders of the church, the body of Christ. Not the CC.

The Apostles WERE the leaders of the Catholic Church.
Johnny – I can trace my Church back to Christ himself (Matt. 16:16-19).
YOU can’t.

Since you love 2 Thess 2:15, lets deal with that one.
So then, brothers and sisters, stand firm and hold fast to the teachings (or traditions) we (the Apostles) **passed **on to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter.

Passed is in the past tense. These traditions had already been passed down. Can you name some of them that did not make it into the scriptures, that are necessary for salvation?

This is perhaps the most preposterous thing you’ve said in this dialogue. How does this make the Oral traditions they taught moot?? The Greek word used here is “didasko” which encompasses past AND present tense – not that it matters . . .

 

[elvisman]

LOL there are tons that are not taught in the Bible. That is a whole other thread, stay on topic. Sounds like you are getting your feathers ruffled.
and I will point out:
Mary never had other children after the Lord Jesus. She remained a perpetual virgin.

WEAK.
Can you name** those children?**
Bet you can’t.

Purgatory

In 2 Macc. 42-46, we see that Judas Maccabeus prays for the men of his army, killed in battle. Verse 44 says, “… for if he were not expecting the fallen to rise again, it would have been useless and foolish to pray for them in death.” Matt. 5:25-26 tells us that unless we have settled our matters, we will be “handed over to the prison guard and will not be released until we have paid the last penny.”

We are told in 1 Cor. 3:12-15 that the day (judgment) will disclose the foundation that a person builds upon and how it will be revealed: “If the work stands that someone built upon the foundation, that person will receive a wage. But if someone’s work is burned up, that one will suffer loss; the person will be saved, but only as through fire.”

Additionally, Matt. 12:32 states, “whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come”, which indicates that there is purification after death for some. Matt. 18:32-35 and Luke 12:58-59 are additional verses that support this doctrine.

All of these verses point to the fact that those in Purgatory will suffer loss but will eventually be released (purified, purged from iniquity, saved). Purgatory is for the believer who dies in God’s favor (without the stain of mortal sin) but is in need of final purification before entering heaven.

Saved, in part, by good works.

Good works are the fruits that grow out of being saved. They do not make you saved.

I John 1:7b …the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
Acts 16:31b
…believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved.

Matt. 12:50, Matt. 21:28-31, Matt. 25:31:46, Luke 18:19-22**, etc. **
James 2:14-17:
"What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? If a brother or sister has nothing to wear and has no food for the day, and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, keep warm, and eat well,” but you do not give them the necessities of the body, what good is it?"
**So also faith of itself, if it does not have works, is dead. **

The church is founded on Peter.
Jesus Christ is the foundation of the church. Peter was a man like you and me. Jesus called Peter Satan in Matthew 16:23 when Peter rebuked Jesus dying.

Matt. 16:18-19
"And so I say to you, you are KEPHA, and upon this KEPHA I will build my church*, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it. ***
will give YOU the keys to the kingdom of heaven. Whatever YOU bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever YOU loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."
Tell me what Jesus meant by this.**

He gave us all those truths, oh and he was speaking to the Apostles only. Where is Apostolic teaching preserved, in the scriptures.

It is preserved in the Holy Deposit of faith (1 Tim. 6:20-21) in his CHURCH, which is the FULLNESS of Christ (Eph. 1:22-23) and the pillar and foundation of TRUTH (1 Tim. 3:15).

**Can’t say that about *your *church because it wasn’**t established by Jesus, but by flawed sinful men . . .

 

[guanophore]

It would be correct to say that the word of God was manifested in spite of the Catholic apostasy.

I used to hang with some Baptists that espoused this view.

I came to realize that it meant that there were no faithful Catholics left through whom God could work, and when I studied the history of the Church, I realized that was not the case.

 

[ignatius777]

You know I was thinking about this while at work tonight. Some people are strict SS people, whereas others like myself are more likely to say that we are Prima Scriptura, for scripture first (so other sources, like tradition, reason and experience, can aid in interpreting scripture).

Amen!