No scripture is not complicated in the least. All one needs to do is read it and believe.
Incorrect. They did not issue a definition of the canon, but because Trent did in the 16th century, confirming what those earlier councils did, demonstrates that their determination of the canon was in fact infallible (because it was affirmed by an infallible definition from Trent).
They did not issue a definition of the canon, but because Trent did in the 16th century, confirming what those earlier councils did, demonstrates that their determination of the canon was in fact infallible (because it was affirmed by an infallible definition from Trent).
I admit, the concept of retroactive infallibility is certainly interesting!
Where’s your proof no one considered them infallible?
Wouldn’t they be considered excommunicated in a sense?
Because they didn’t usurp the Church’s authority with their own and they did ultimately yield to the Catholic Church.
Not sure. Which one?
Don’t know. Maybe someone else here does and could jump in.
It makes no sense to give infallibility to Apostles, but not to the entire Church. An infallibility that ends with 12 men is the ecclesiastical equivalent of no infallibility at all.
And here you acknowledge that it was not just Apostles who were guided by the HS into infallibility. You include those inspired writers, such as the author of Hebrews, who may not have been Apostles.
Who is no one and when and where was it not considered infallible for 1200 years?
Excommunicated? When and where was the entire Eastern Church excommunicated? By whom?
When has the church taught when one gives an opinion, excommunication is the end result? Did the any of the above men add or remove books or give an entire separate canon and ratify it?
Which book?
I did not know it required references to those same synods?
And why do you separate the 12 from Christ Mystical Body? Christ founded a Church,not two separate entities: 12 men with guided by the HS & and a fallible church.
And the Church Christ founded and not scripture alone. Scripture is also very clear two entities contain the full Truth: God and His Church.
Exceptionally good points. Its a uniquely protestant perspective that the church is seperate from scripture. They seem to think the “church” is just christians as a whole and not the church as an institution which is exactly what scripture describes
Unfortunately my friend,many will never soften their hearts to comprehend. I always tell me adult confirmation students, the heart and mind is like a parachute: It has to open in order to be successful.
I have been on other non catholic forum sites and many there have very hard hearts. We must pray fervently.
Being that canon law determines a council to only be infallible if it is ecumenical and called by the Pope, why would anyone have considered them infallible when they didn’t meet the criteria? The councils only had authority within the North African churches to which they had oversight. Trent no where says that the regional councils were infallible.
600 years after the fact, with the Great Schism. What about the intervening years? If Hippo and Carthage had universal authority, why was it acceptable for the Eastern Church as well as various Catholic bishops to disagree with its conclusions on the canon?
How is disagreeing with Hippo and Carthage yielding to their authority?
By no one, that’s my point. If Hippo and Carthage were infallible councils, then why wasn’t anyone excommunicated for disagreeing with them on the canon?
Considering the vitriol by Catholic apologists towards Luther’s view on the deuterocanon, one would think it’s the end result. “Luther removed books from the Bible! And we don’t care that a whole host of Catholics held his same opinion!”
1 Esdras. Referred to by Trent as 3rd Esdras.
Does it equally not make sense that the Apostles were given the gifts of healing lepers, and raising the dead to life if the Church doesn’t have the ability to do the same?
Can you point out in Scripture where the term church is applied exclusively to the hierarchy to the exclusion of Christians in general?
First of all, no where in scripture does it say only the hiearchy is the church. Whatever gave you that funny idea? Did Jesus grant all Christians in general the same authority as the 12?
First of all, do you understand excommunication? Not all offenses are worthy of excommunication in the Church’s eyes. This is similar to the civil law where penalties are dispensed according to the severity of the crime.
Do you understand infallibility and when it is applicable? Papal infallibility is one which is generally misunderstood by those outside the Church.
Sorry,but it was more than Luther’s issue with the canon.
Although not belonging to the Canon of the Sacred Scriptures, this book is usually found, ne prorsus intereat, in an appendix to the editions of the Vulgate**. It is made up almost entirely from materials existing in canonical books. **The following scheme will show sufficiently the contents and point out the canonical parallels:
This is a fair point, Augsburg.
You do not believe that the holy spirit still guides Jesus’ church to all truth; you believe that stopped once the bible was codified in the 4th century - correct?