Amen!
Where exactly is it recorded in any of Paul’s letters (the Scriptures) that he claimed to have been inspired by the Holy Spirit to commit the word of God to writing and, if I may add, his letters were to serve as the sole and final rule of faith - but not simply function as the objective norm of faith?
The false teachers would not consist of the entire college of bishops, which has succeeded the divine office of the Twelve. On the contrary, the bishops in unison have always had the authority to overrule and discipline individual dissenters; especially clerics like Arius, Nestorius, and Martin Luther once their false teachings had been brought to light at variance with the Apostolic Tradition of the Church and the Church’s interpretation of Scripture in accord with that tradition from whence the written word has proceeded.
An explanation is not what I am looking for, scriptural reference is. I didn’t think that would be too difficult for you but apparently I was wrong. So what am I to think here? Is it that Lutherans have this idea of some “final” authority which they call sola scriptura but which they can not justify by scripture. No wonder others have likened it to a “house of cards”. It cannot stand up under its own weight.
Your first statememnt is entirely wrong. The so-callled reformation was really a revolt against authority. Luther spent a life time revolting against authority. First he revolted against the authority of his parents. Then the authority of the Augustinians and then the church. The only authority that Luther did not run from was what he claimed as his own and that was his claimed authority to interpret the scriptures by himself. The fact that this contradicted the scriptures didn’t seem to phase him in the least. But that pseudo- authority eventually caught up with him when others started doing the same thing as Luther. When that happened, Luther would become enraged.
Yes it certainly did happen. Those false teachers were part of the “forces of Hell” that Jesus spoke about in MT 16. But Jesus also said that His Church would prevail over those false teachers and it did. Not only that but the church did it without the scriptures. At the Council of Jerusalem. The false teachers were the sola scripturist Judiacizers who quoted scripture (the Mosaic Law) But the Apostles claimed a direct inspiration from the Holy Spirit and ruled against the sola cripturists. See Acts 15:28:
I don’t think Lutherans would have a problem with this - only that we would remind ourselves that the Holy Spirit never would counter Scripture.
Luther and Lutherans did/do not oppose prayer for the dead. But if what you said was true, it doesn’t answer the question regarding 1 Macc., Judith, Tobit, and the others.
Way to go, great post!!!The false teachers would not consist of the entire college of bishops, which has succeeded the divine office of the Twelve. On the contrary, the bishops in unison have always had the authority to overrule and discipline individual dissenters; especially clerics like Arius, Nestorius, and Martin Luther once their false teachings had been brought to light at variance with the Apostolic Tradition of the Church and the Church’s interpretation of Scripture in accord with that tradition from whence the written word has proceeded.
As I urged you when I was going to Macedo′nia, remain at Ephesus that you may charge certain persons not to teach any different doctrine, nor to occupy themselves with myths and endless genealogies which promote speculations rather than the divine training that is in faith; whereas the aim of our charge is love that issues from a pure heart and a good conscience and sincere faith. Certain persons by swerving from these have wandered away into vain discussion, desiring to be teachers of the law, without understanding either what they are saying or the things about which they make assertions.
1 Timothy 1, 3-7
This is why I left you in Crete, that you might amend what was defective, and appoint elders in every town as I directed you … For there are many insubordinate men, empty talkers and deceivers, especially the circumcision party; they must be silenced, since they are upsetting whole families by teaching for base gain what they have no right to teach. One of themselves, a prophet of their own, said, “Cretans are always liars, evil beasts, lazy gluttons.” This testimony is true. Therefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith, instead of giving heed to Jewish myths or to commands of men who reject the truth.
Titus 1 1, 5-14
He who hears you hears Me, he who rejects you rejects Me, and he who rejects Me rejects Him who sent Me.”
Luke 10, 16
Children, it is the last hour! As you have heard that antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have come. From this we know that it is the last hour.They went out from us, but they did not belong to us; for if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us. But by going out they made it plain that none of them belongs to us. But you have been anointed by the Holy One, and all of you have knowledge…As for you, the anointing that you received from him abides in you, and so you do not need anyone to teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about all things, and is true and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, abide in him.
1 John 2, 18-27
*“For where the Church is, there is the Spirit of God; and where the Spirit of God is, there the Church and every grace is. The Spirit, however, is Truth.” *
St. Irenaeus, Against Heresies 3, 24, 1 (A.D. 180)
"Therefore we ought to be obedient to those presbyters who are in the Church, to those who have the succession from Apostles, as we have shown; who, together with the succession of the episcopacy, have received, according to the good will of the Father, the sure gift of truth: but the others, who depart from the principal succession, and assemble in any place whatever, (we ought) to hold suspected either as heretics, and of evil opinion; or as schismatics, and proud, and as men pleasing themselves; or, again, as hypocrites, doing this for gain’s sake and vain-glory. But all these have fallen away from the truth. And heretics indeed, who bring a strange fire to the altar of God, that is, strange doctrines, will be consumed by fire from Heaven, as Nadab and Abiud. Whilst they who rise up against the truth, and give advice to others against God’s Church, dwell in Hell, swallowed up by the yawning earth, as they wh**o surrounded Core, Dathan, and Abiron. But they who rend asunder and sever the unity of the Church, receive from God the same punishment as befell Jeroboam."
Ibid.,1, 26, 2
"If a man believe in one God, who also by His word made all things, as Moses saith, God said. “Let there be light, and there was light . . .” and likewise the Apostle Paul: “One Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father, who is above all, and in us all,— he will first hold to tlie head . . . " (Colossians 2:19). Then, afterwards, also every discourse will be clear to him, if also he read the Scriptures diligently with (amongst) those who are presbyters in the Church, with whom is the apostolic doctrine, as we have demonstrated.”
Ibid., 1, 23, 1,2
“Let us note that the very tradition, teaching, and faith of the Catholic Church from the beginning, which the Lord gave, was preached by the Apostles, and was preserved by the Fathers. On this was the Church founded; and if anyone departs from this, he neither is nor any longer ought to be called a Christian.”
St. Athanasius, Four Letters to Serapion of Thmius (A.D. 360)
PAX
Please cite as many scholars and academics as you can who legitimately argue that we shouldn’t call it the Protestant Reformation, but the Protestant Revolt. People who are still living would be preferable, but that’s not absolutely necessary. I probably will make a note of how many years it’s been since anyone of importance has taken this sort of rhetoric seriously, though.
I agree with some of what you say but maintain what I said in my original statement…the two key issues at the heart of the reformation were authority and justification.
I understand that Luther had “issues” and that some of his opinions and beliefs were definitely obnoxious. The truth is that Luther brought the Truth of the Gospel out of centuries of darkness and into the light.
And you miss the real lesson to be learned. Here it is. THE APOSTLES WERE NOT SOLA SCRIPTURISTS. They claimed to possess an authority directly from the Holy Spirit and did not side with the sola scripturists who were the Judiacizers.
Call it for what it is. It was a revolt against the authority of the church. It matters not what sugar coating you want to place on it by calling it a “reforming” of the church. The real reformation occurred at Trent just as in prior centuries the church underwent reforming at councils. .
The church speaks for God. Jesus told the Apostles this in Luke 10:16:
False. Luther was of the same ilk as Arius and Nestorius and the other heretics that went before him. What he did was to cast millions of people who followed him into the darkness of his heresy. But I will agree that Luther did indeed have issues and it was these issues that played a pivotal role in what and why he did as he did.
I agree that the apostles did receive apostolic authority from God and they did receive direct revelation from God to establish His Church. This apostolic authority ended with the death of John and the end of the apostolic age and did not continue through AS as the CC teaches. This means that the CC can error.
I would say that the CC teaches a different Gospel that contradicts what Jesus and the apostles taught as found in Scripture.
