Sola Scriptura ... again

[PhilVaz]

James White to me from his blog (8/2007) << So, don’t you think it is rather odd that in all that verbiage, we can never find anyplace where Congar gives us the actual content of this wonderfully nebulous thing called “tradition”? >>

RESPONSE: From Tradition and Traditions: An Historical and a Theological Essay (1967) by Yves M.-J. Congar, O.P. The content of the traditions mentioned by the Fathers are given in Chapter 2: The Fathers and the Early Church, in Part (C) Examples of Unwritten Apostolic Traditions cited by Catholic Writers, pages 50ff.

St. Irenaeus – the paschal fast (Frag 3, Eusebius HE V:24;12-17, PG 7:1229ff), also in a footnote the custom of praying standing on Sundays and from Easter to Pentecost (PG 6:1364).

Tertullian – rule against soldiers wearing the military wreath, by an ancient tradition (De Corona 3-4, PL 3:78); then he widens the question and gives further examples of unwritten traditions: the customs involved with baptism, eucharist, prayers/sacrifice for the dead, practices of fasting/kneeling, and the Sign: “Whatever we do, whether on a journey or just making a visit, coming in or going out, putting on our shoes, washing, sitting down to a meal, attending to the lights, lying down, sitting down, or anything we do: we mark our foreheads with the Sign of the Cross.” (ibid)

Origen – infant baptism (In Levit Hom VIII:3, PG 12:496 and In Epis ad Rom V:8-9, PG 14:1038,1047B); praying on the knees and facing towards the east, and eucharistic and baptismal rites (In Num Hom V:1, PG 12:603C)

St. Clement of Alexandria – he “assumes doctrines can constitute the object of a completely oral tradition,” etc.

St. Dionysius of Alexandria – the keeping of Sunday (Ad Basilidem).

Pope Stephen – the validity of baptism conferred by heretics (in St. Cyprian, Ep 75:6, 85:5).

St. Cyprian of Carthage – connects usage followed by our Lord of the offering of a chalice of wine mixed with water (Ep 63:9-13, PL 4:380-3), and backs it up with scriptural allusions; he considers a rule according to which a bishop must be elected in the presence of people in the assembly of the bishops of the province as “de traditione divina et apostolica observatione” (Ep 67:5, PL 3:1027).

St. Basil the Great – dealing with the theology of the Holy Spirit, says he is collecting the ideas of Scripture and of the unwritten tradition of the Fathers (De Spiritu Sancto 9:22; PG 32:105A); in the phrase “WITH the Holy Spirit” he appeals to an unwritten part of the apostolic witness and justifies this appeal as legitimate by invoking the existence of unwritten customs of unquestioned authority (ibid 27:66, PG 32:188).

St. Epiphanius of Salamis – prohibition of marriage after a vow of virginity; fasting on Wed and Fri (Panarion Haer 66:6, PG 41:1047; and ibid 75:7, PG 42:542-3).

St. John Chrysostom – prayer for the dead (In Epis ad Phil Hom 3:4, PG 62:203-4)

St. Jerome – invokes an apostolic origin not only for the imposition of hands, together with the invocation of the Holy Spirit, after baptism (one could appeal to Acts), but also for the triple baptismal immersion, the giving of milk and honey to the newly baptized, and the practice of kneeling or fasting during Paschaltide (Dial adv Luc 8, PL 23:172).

Pope Innocent I – in his letter to Decentius, bishop of Gubbio, invites Churches of the West, supposed to have been founded by the apostle Peter or his successors, to align themselves with the usages transmitted (tradition) to the Roman Church by the prince of the apostles (Ep 25, PL 20:551).

St. Augustine – at a very early date, infant baptism as an apostolic tradition, but also with a biblical argument using the examples of the Holy Innocents or circumcision (De Genesi ad Litt 10:23:39, PL 34:426; De Bapt c. Don 4:24:31, PL 43:174; ibid 5:23:31); an apostolic tradition of not rebaptizing heretics on their reconciliation with the Church (De Bapt c. Don 2:7:12, PL 43:133); and a number of liturgical customs which he believed to be universal: rites at baptism (aspersion, exorcisms, insufflation), etc. “His criterion for determining an apostolic tradition is, at least after the Donatist controversy, the evidence of the spread and universal acceptance of matters not found or expressed in Scripture or determined by plenary councils.” (Congar, see Augustine, De Bapt, and Ep 54)

THE END. PhilVaz to the rescue!

I should post this as a short article for my apologetics page since this question constantly comes up. You wanted examples of apostolic tradition – there they are from Congar with references to all the major Church Fathers.

Phil P

 

[vern_humphrey]

And the same very early fathers did not support many of the doctrines and dogmas the RCC holds today – at least, not that I can tell.

Such as?

Now, are you going to provide some quotes that tell exactly what was in this sacred tradition, or not?

Did I not already cite Polycarp, Irenaeus, Clement and Justin Martyr?

 

[SyCarl]

James White to me from his blog (8/2007) << So, don’t you think it is rather odd that in all that verbiage, we can never find anyplace where Congar gives us the actual content of this wonderfully nebulous thing called “tradition”? >>

RESPONSE: From Tradition and Traditions: An Historical and a Theological Essay (1967) by Yves M.-J. Congar, O.P. The content of the traditions mentioned by the Fathers are given in Chapter 2: The Fathers and the Early Church, in Part (C) Examples of Unwritten Apostolic Traditions cited by Catholic Writers, pages 50ff.

St. Irenaeus – the paschal fast (Frag 3, Eusebius HE V:24;12-17, PG 7:1229ff), also in a footnote the custom of praying standing on Sundays and from Easter to Pentecost (PG 6:1364).

Tertullian – rule against soldiers wearing the military wreath, by an ancient tradition (De Corona 3-4, PL 3:78); then he widens the question and gives further examples of unwritten traditions: the customs involved with baptism, eucharist, prayers/sacrifice for the dead, practices of fasting/kneeling, and the Sign: “Whatever we do, whether on a journey or just making a visit, coming in or going out, putting on our shoes, washing, sitting down to a meal, attending to the lights, lying down, sitting down, or anything we do: we mark our foreheads with the Sign of the Cross.” (ibid)

Origen – infant baptism (In Levit Hom VIII:3, PG 12:496 and In Epis ad Rom V:8-9, PG 14:1038,1047B); praying on the knees and facing towards the east, and eucharistic and baptismal rites (In Num Hom V:1, PG 12:603C)

St. Clement of Alexandria – he “assumes doctrines can constitute the object of a completely oral tradition,” etc.

St. Dionysius of Alexandria – the keeping of Sunday (Ad Basilidem).

Pope Stephen – the validity of baptism conferred by heretics (in St. Cyprian, Ep 75:6, 85:5).

St. Cyprian of Carthage – connects usage followed by our Lord of the offering of a chalice of wine mixed with water (Ep 63:9-13, PL 4:380-3), and backs it up with scriptural allusions; he considers a rule according to which a bishop must be elected in the presence of people in the assembly of the bishops of the province as “de traditione divina et apostolica observatione” (Ep 67:5, PL 3:1027).

St. Basil the Great – dealing with the theology of the Holy Spirit, says he is collecting the ideas of Scripture and of the unwritten tradition of the Fathers (De Spiritu Sancto 9:22; PG 32:105A); in the phrase “WITH the Holy Spirit” he appeals to an unwritten part of the apostolic witness and justifies this appeal as legitimate by invoking the existence of unwritten customs of unquestioned authority (ibid 27:66, PG 32:188).

St. Epiphanius of Salamis – prohibition of marriage after a vow of virginity; fasting on Wed and Fri (Panarion Haer 66:6, PG 41:1047; and ibid 75:7, PG 42:542-3).

St. John Chrysostom – prayer for the dead (In Epis ad Phil Hom 3:4, PG 62:203-4)

St. Jerome – invokes an apostolic origin not only for the imposition of hands, together with the invocation of the Holy Spirit, after baptism (one could appeal to Acts), but also for the triple baptismal immersion, the giving of milk and honey to the newly baptized, and the practice of kneeling or fasting during Paschaltide (Dial adv Luc 8, PL 23:172).

Pope Innocent I – in his letter to Decentius, bishop of Gubbio, invites Churches of the West, supposed to have been founded by the apostle Peter or his successors, to align themselves with the usages transmitted (tradition) to the Roman Church by the prince of the apostles (Ep 25, PL 20:551).

St. Augustine – at a very early date, infant baptism as an apostolic tradition, but also with a biblical argument using the examples of the Holy Innocents or circumcision (De Genesi ad Litt 10:23:39, PL 34:426; De Bapt c. Don 4:24:31, PL 43:174; ibid 5:23:31); an apostolic tradition of not rebaptizing heretics on their reconciliation with the Church (De Bapt c. Don 2:7:12, PL 43:133); and a number of liturgical customs which he believed to be universal: rites at baptism (aspersion, exorcisms, insufflation), etc. “His criterion for determining an apostolic tradition is, at least after the Donatist controversy, the evidence of the spread and universal acceptance of matters not found or expressed in Scripture or determined by plenary councils.” (Congar, see Augustine, De Bapt, and Ep 54)

THE END. PhilVaz to the rescue!

I should post this as a short article for my apologetics page since this question constantly comes up. You wanted examples of apostolic tradition – there they are from Congar with references to all the major Church Fathers.

Phil P

Are there any doctrines or dogmas thar rely primarily on tradition in the church fathers or are they mainly disciplines and customs?

 

[Schabel]

I never said it did. I’m simply searching for the truth – what I’m asking, however, is not which of the two (RCC or Protestant) is correct. I’m asking whether or not the RCC is right, and how you can demonstrate that.

Well, one thing to consider is that Christ promised that His Church would endure. I expect that you’d have to find that in SOME Christian Church, which leaves us with a rather limited array of choices.

I’m not saying that they were – all I’m saying is that it seems plausible. Your argument (which could possibly be phrased as “scripture on its own doesn’t contain all that’s necessary for salvation”)

No, this is a common misperception.
We believe that scripture has material sufficiency, just not formal sufficiency. Mark Shea presents a great analogy to demonstrate these beliefs: A pile of bricks, mortor, wood, nails, etc. is materially sufficient to be a house. It’s not formally sufficient.

All the doctrines are in scripture, implicitely or explicitely. What is required is understanding through the Holy Spirit, and just as importantly, the Apostolic Tradition to tell us what the scriptures mean.

necessitates that the oral teachings of Paul and others were different from their written teachings.

NOT different. More complete, however.

I just got a bunch of slides from a technical seminar that I was unable to attend. They’re of limited use, though, because I didn’t receive the oral instruction that went along with these slides.

If they were the same, your argument has no merit (because it’s all written down, and thus sola scriptura prevails) – thus it seems reasonable to ask how it is that you know for sure that these oral teachings were different from the written ones.

They couldn’t possibly be the same, unless Paul was a veeerry slow speaker, since he lived and taught among the people to whom he addressed his letters for a long time.

How do we know? We have the teachings of those who knew the Apostles, written down by themselves or their students. the great consensus among their teaching shows us that they were either all promulgating the same errors, or in accord on these teachings. The former is extremely doubtful based upon the fact that so many of them were willing to die horribly rather than “offer a pinch of incense to Caeser.”

Perhaps, but I think it would make no sense if individuals like himself failed to leave a written record of all that was necessary for salvation and Christian living, especially since Paul was aware that the church would continue after he died.

You’re thinking like a modern. It wasn’t that way in Apostolic times.

You’re assuming he said Mass, and that he celebrated the Eucharist (as Roman Catholics do). How do you know? Where’s your proof? All you have is supposition.

Nope, it’s far, far more than supposition. He said so (1Cor 11:23ff, as did Luke in Acts 2:42,46), and his students carried that tradition forward in time, as explained in myriad places, sucha as Justin Martyr’s first apology.

 

[PhilVaz]

SyCarl << Are there any doctrines or dogmas thar rely primarily on tradition in the church fathers or are they mainly disciplines and customs? >>

In Congar’s view most of the references to tradition are to customs, practices, liturgy, etc.

The rest of Catholic doctrine and dogma is found in Scripture at least implicitly: the nature of God, the Trinity, the person of Christ, the sacraments, the nature of salvation, the visibility and hierarchy of the Church, the ministerial priesthood, the Papacy, the Marian doctrines. The Fathers appealed to Scripture for all of these, and when we look at their explicit beliefs (e.g. St. John Chrysostom), we see they were orthodox Catholic in theology.

Phil P

 

[EJTMJR]

PC MASTER WROTE

1. If it is true that valid teachings outside of scripture were given (perhaps orally by Paul and others), how can we know that the RCC has passed them down accurately?

BECAUSE CHRIST SAID THE GATES OF HELL WILL NOT PREVAIL AGAINST HIS CHURCH…

I BELIEVE CHRIST…DONT YOU?

 

[EJTMJR]

PC MASTER WROTE

Second, even assuming that something needed to be passed down orally (though for the life of me I cannot fathom why that would be), who is it that is responsible for this? The RCC no doubt says “the apostles”, for only they were given the fullness of the faith. This supports the case for apostolic succession being necessary, etc.

COME ON PC MASTER YOU DONT REALLY MEAN THAT DO YOU? YOU CANT " FATHOM WHY".
HOW ABOUT MOST OF THE POPULATION DID NOT READ AND THERE WERE NO BIBLES FOR THE MASSES ANYWAY.