Sola Scriptura?biblical?

  • Thread starter Thread starter sancte_joseph
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
You’re not making any sense, Perry. Matthew includes a ground for divorce—marital unfaithfulness.
Hi,Sandusky,
Mark 10:
5 But Jesus said to them, “For your hardness of heart he wrote you this commandment.
6 But from the beginning of creation, God made them male and female.' 7 For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife,
8 and the two shall become one flesh.’ So they are no longer two but one flesh.
9 What therefore God has joined together, let not man put asunder.”
10 And in the house the disciples asked him again about this matter.
11 And he said to them, "Whoever divorces his wife and marries another, commits adultery against her;

Opinion: Jesus is not excluding divorce, or more precisley, seperation] all he is saying, once married always married. Especially if you have children.

Peace, OneNow1
 
Hi,Sandusky,
Mark 10:
5 But Jesus said to them, “For your hardness of heart he wrote you this commandment.
6 But from the beginning of creation, God made them male and female.' 7 For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife,
8 and the two shall become one flesh.’ So they are no longer two but one flesh.
9 What therefore God has joined together, let not man put asunder.”
10 And in the house the disciples asked him again about this matter.
11 And he said to them, "Whoever divorces his wife and marries another, commits adultery against her;

Opinion: Jesus is not excluding divorce, or more precisley, seperation] all he is saying, once married always married. Especially if you have children.

Peace, OneNow1
Do you think anullments are biblical?
 
My point is not to attack divorce or people involved. ja4 stated that law is clear in the Bible and even stated adulterly as an example. (Not trying to put words in his mouth) My point is how does one resolve what appear to be inconsistencies in the Bible via Sola Scriptura.
we use clear and unambiguous passages to shed light on not so clear and more ambiguous ones. If Mark and Luke only tell us so much , and Matthew gives us more information - more perspective, then we must take this into account. Besides 1 Corinthians 7 does not condemn divorce. You are misinformed. But it does condemn those who would attempt to remain celibate while burning with lust. Paul says that these should get married! If this is true - and your church would heed this command - there would be very very very very little celibacy in the Catholic Church.

Check this one out:

If any brother hath a wife that believeth not, and she be pleased to dwell with him, let him not put her away. 13 And the woman which hath an husband that believeth not, and if he be pleased to dwell with her, let her not leave him. 15 But if the unbelieving depart, let him depart. A brother or a sister is not under bondage in such cases: (1 Cor. 7)

Clearly Paul teaches that even abandonment by an unbelieving spouse relieves the abandoned one from the bondage of that covenant! And when he says that this command is from him and not from the Lord - he doesn’t mean that he is speaking against what the Lord spoke - he simply means that thus far, the Lord had given no such commandment - but that now Paul was issuing this rule. We are to follow the apostolic doctrine - and when we do - celibacy begins to diminish. For what man burns not with lust?

About divorce then - there are obvious exceptions to the rule.
About celibacy then - there is no such command, and strict guidelines to follow - NO BURNING WITH LUST! Otherwise one must then get married! This disqualifies millions of “Priests” in America alone, not to mention all across the globe.

If the Catholic Church was practicing the Reformation principle of sola Scriptura - this would not be the case- :o

SOLA SCRIPTURA!! 👍
 
SO ARE WE GONNA GET BACK TO THE FACT THAT THE BIBLE TEACHES THE REFORMATION PRINCIPLE OF SOLA SCRIPTURA, AND WITHOUT CONTROVERSY - THE SUFFICIENCY OF THE SCRIPTURES ALONE?

Actually I think this point is pretty much established already - seeing how no one has adequately proved that we do not have the proper interpretation of key biblical passages: especially JOHN 20:30, 31!

LETS PICK UP WHERE WE LEFT OFF! 👍
 
Do you think anullments are biblical?
As a practicing catholic I follow, church teachig, what we think, in reality doesn’t really matter,however if I thought for one moment it was unreasonable, which I do not. I would think the answer would lie with the church that Jesus instituted as the pillar and bulwark of truth,so yes it is biblical.

Peace, OneNow1
 
🤷 You’re quibbling; Matthew states marital unfaithfulness as a ground for divorce.
The defintion of Lord’s word is quibbling?

You have four clear refutations of Matthew and your resolution via Sola Scriptura is it is quibbling. Theology should follow the Bible. The Bible should not follow a personal theology. Sola Scriptura gives you no means to resolve this issue and you know it. Four scripture verses very clearly do not allow an exception. This shows that you make the Bible follow your personal beliefs. As another thread correctly states Protestants don’t truly believe in Sola Scriptura!

Since we started this thread people that believe in Sola Scriptura have not been able to show where in the Bible their theology is supported. They have not been able to define what books are inspired. Now they can not even show how they interpret Bible verses via the Bible. Does anyone that supports Sola Scriptura have anything to support their personal belief? Anything at all?
 
we use clear and unambiguous passages to shed light on not so clear and more ambiguous ones. If Mark and Luke only tell us so much , and Matthew gives us more information - more perspective, then we must take this into account. Besides 1 Corinthians 7 does not condemn divorce. You are misinformed. But it does condemn those who would attempt to remain celibate while burning with lust. Paul says that these should get married! If this is true - and your church would heed this command - there would be very very very very little celibacy in the Catholic Church.

SOLA SCRIPTURA!! 👍
Yet Matthew is commonly believed to have been written before Luke and may have been written before Mark. Luke quotes other books in the bible. So perhaps Luke is clarifying Matthew. It interesting how you have an earlier gospel clarifying a later gospel. Is this how you normally do it via Sola Scriptura?
 
Since we started this thread people that believe in Sola Scriptura have not been able to show where in the Bible their theology is supported. They have not been able to define what books are inspired.
You have not shown us either! 😛

How do you know what constitutes Scripture?

Does your Church tell you?

How do you know what constitutes the Church?

Doe Scripture tell you - or do you just take Rome’s word for it?

If Scripture tells you then you have proven that it is possible to know what is Scripture apart from the “infallible” magisterium!

If you just believe what other men tell you - then where is your surety and security for believing them? How do you know that Rome is telling the truth?

You see, Roman Catholics just believe what they want to believe, and then try to use a double standard when attempting to disprove the Protestant Christian.

How noble! 👍
 
You have not shown us either! 😛

How do you know what constitutes Scripture?

Does your Church tell you?

How do you know what constitutes the Church?

Doe Scripture tell you - or do you just take Rome’s word for it?

If Scripture tells you then you have proven that it is possible to know what is Scripture apart from the “infallible” magisterium!

If you just believe what other men tell you - then where is your surety and security for believing them? How do you know that Rome is telling the truth?

You see, Roman Catholics just believe what they want to believe, and then try to use a double standard when attempting to disprove the Protestant Christian.

How noble! 👍
This is post is about Sola Scriptura. It appear that your post show the truth. You know that you can not support your theology.

Now if you would like to make a post for a Catholic belief you think is in error we will prove that it is the truth. Pick anyone one you want.
 
***FOR CRUSADOR -

Your responses to my exchanges on SS show that your understanding of these matters is erroneous despite the fact that you have been given copious evidence that SS is not biblical and was dreamed up by ML and others in the 1500 century . As I have said the river’s water is always purest at its source. You say that the Church Fathers believed in SS. Not so! Let me quote you just a few.

Tertullian – 160-225AD

“For wherever both the true Christian rule and Faith shall be shown, will be the true scriptures and the true expositions and all the true Christian traditions.” What could be clearer!

John Chrysostom – 347-407 AD

“:Hence (2Thes2:15) – it is manifest that not all things are by epistle but many things are also unwritten and both are worthy of credit. The Tradition of the Church is also worthy of credit”.

St Jerome 342-420 AD

“Apart from scripture, many other observances of the Church are due to Tradition”.

Eusebius of Caesarea 260-340 AD

“Bishop Ignatius of Antioch 35-107 AD exhorted against heresies which for the first time were prevalent and urged the people to hold fast to the Tradition of the Apostles”

2Tim3:16 is clear but you seem unable to understand it: “All scripture is God breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking etc.”. It does not say scripture is sufficient for training in righteousness, merely that it is useful. The two words do not mean the same thing. And “All scripture is inspired” is not the same as saying only scripture is inspired. The text is merely saying that scripture is indeed inspired which we all accept.

It is clear that you are one of those “ignorant and unstable people” who distort the Bible to their own destruction (2Peter3:16) (Pope Peter’s words!)

This correspondence is now closed. :banghead: :bigyikes: :banghead: :bigyikes:

 
Yet Matthew is commonly believed to have been written before Luke and may have been written before Mark. Luke quotes other books in the bible. So perhaps Luke is clarifying Matthew. It interesting how you have an earlier gospel clarifying a later gospel. Is this how you normally do it via Sola Scriptura?
I like how you use the word -“perhaps” exposing that you do not have any official word from your Church on this matter - and exposing that you do not really even know. Yet you use this smoke in mirrors to subtley cause us to doubt - When your whole post is only as good as “Perhaps” it carries no real significance - unless of course you build your theology on “possibilities” :rolleyes:

Funny how you have Luke contradicting or correcting or “clarifying” (as you put it) the infallible and inerrant word of God delivered by Matthew - whether it was written before or after.

Is this why so many Catholics do not believe that the Scriptures are without contradiction and without error? What a shame. 😊
 
I like how you use the word -“perhaps” exposing that you do not have any official word from your Church on this matter - and exposing that you do not really even know. Yet you use this smoke in mirrors to subtley cause us to doubt - When your whole post is only as good as “Perhaps” it carries no real significance - unless of course you build your theology on “possibilities” :rolleyes:

Funny how you have Luke contradicting or correcting or “clarifying” (as you put it) the infallible and inerrant word of God delivered by Matthew - whether it was written before or after.

Is this why so many Catholics do not believe that the Scriptures are without contradiction and without error? What a shame. 😊
I do not make a Catholic point here. This thread is about Sola Scriptura. I could post what we Catholics believe and fully support it. My point is that Sola Scriptura can not because it doesn’t have any support. Let me ask the question again. Via the Bible only how do you place Matthew’s interpetation above Luke’s when Luke’s was written at a later date. As you only have the Bible to understand this point how do you have the earlier version clarifying a later version?

People that can’t support Sola Scriptura try to prove their theory right by stating that everyone is wrong. I can support all of our beliefs and if you wish to start a thread I will. On this thread it is about your ability to support Sola Scriptura. Just another case that you can’t support it.
 
The defintion of Lord’s word is quibbling?

You have four clear refutations of Matthew and your resolution via Sola Scriptura is it is quibbling. Theology should follow the Bible. The Bible should not follow a personal theology. Sola Scriptura gives you no means to resolve this issue and you know it. Four scripture verses very clearly do not allow an exception. This shows that you make the Bible follow your personal beliefs. As another thread correctly states Protestants don’t truly believe in Sola Scriptura!

Since we started this thread people that believe in Sola Scriptura have not been able to show where in the Bible their theology is supported. They have not been able to define what books are inspired. Now they can not even show how they interpret Bible verses via the Bible. Does anyone that supports Sola Scriptura have anything to support their personal belief? Anything at all?
They cannot.

What amazes me is that the subject has been discussed widely and exhaustively in many books and in the AC forums. It is like thrashing a dead horse.

I have to admire the monitors who have displayed much patience. SS has been argued until one is blue in the face.

I think that these people go all out to impose their theology and do not pay the slighted attention to the overwhelming evidence in scriptures presented to them. All that is required is to READ the posting on this thread but I very much doubt they read them. They can’t wait to produce their next red herring.

It is becoming frustrating and boring and I am inclined to unsubscribe from this thread and go elsewhere.:banghead: :bigyikes: :whistle: :whistle:
 
***FOR CRUSADOR -

Your responses to my exchanges on SS show that your understanding of these matters is erroneous despite the fact that you have been given copious evidence that SS is not biblical and was dreamed up by ML and others in the 1500 century . As I have said the river’s water is always purest at its source. You say that the Church Fathers believed in SS. Not so! Let me quote you just a few.

Tertullian – 160-225AD

“For wherever both the true Christian rule and Faith shall be shown, will be the true scriptures and the true expositions and all the true Christian traditions.” What could be clearer!

John Chrysostom – 347-407 AD

“:Hence (2Thes2:15) – it is manifest that not all things are by epistle but many things are also unwritten and both are worthy of credit. The Tradition of the Church is also worthy of credit”.

St Jerome 342-420 AD

“Apart from scripture, many other observances of the Church are due to Tradition”.

Eusebius of Caesarea 260-340 AD

“Bishop Ignatius of Antioch 35-107 AD exhorted against heresies which for the first time were prevalent and urged the people to hold fast to the Tradition of the Apostles”

2Tim3:16 is clear but you seem unable to understand it: “All scripture is God breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking etc.”. It does not say scripture is sufficient for training in righteousness, merely that it is useful. The two words do not mean the same thing. And “All scripture is inspired” is not the same as saying only scripture is inspired. The text is merely saying that scripture is indeed inspired which we all accept.

It is clear that you are one of those “ignorant and unstable people” who distort the Bible to their own destruction (2Peter3:16) (Pope Peter’s words!)

This correspondence is now closed. :banghead: :bigyikes: :banghead: :bigyikes:

Hey don’t beat your head against the wall! It will be ok.

Just re-read my posts with an open mind - and I will pray that the Lord will reveal the truth of the sufficiency of His holy word.

But thanks for the dialog!

Anybody else want to twist the scriptures and deny that John 20:30, 31 do not teach the sufficiency of Holy Writ? 😃
 
***FOR CRUSADOR -

Tertullian – 160-225AD

“For wherever both the true Christian rule and Faith shall be shown, will be the true scriptures and the true expositions and all the true Christian traditions.” What could be clearer!

John Chrysostom – 347-407 AD

“:Hence (2Thes2:15) – it is manifest that not all things are by epistle but many things are also unwritten and both are worthy of credit. The Tradition of the Church is also worthy of credit”.

St Jerome 342-420 AD

“Apart from scripture, many other observances of the Church are due to Tradition”.

Eusebius of Caesarea 260-340 AD

“Bishop Ignatius of Antioch 35-107 AD exhorted against heresies which for the first time were prevalent and urged the people to hold fast to the Tradition of the Apostles”

It is clear that you are one of those “ignorant and unstable people” who distort the Bible to their own destruction (2Peter3:16) (Pope Peter’s words!)

The Doctrine of Sola Scriptura teaches that Scripture is the ultimate authority for the Church. It teaches that the Church and Tradition must be subordinated and held accountable to Scripture in that Scripture Alone is God-breathed revelation and the only infallible rule of faith. It also teaches that Scripture is materially sufficient - in that there was no other divine revelation preserved in any other form such as Tradition; and that it is formally sufficient - in that all that is necessary for the Christian faith has been clearly revealed therein.

The Roman Catholic response to this doctrine revived by the Reformers was that Sola Scriptura was no more than a 16th century Protestant novelty, and that it finds no support whatsoever in the patristic writings. Roman apologists since then have charged that the Reformers introduced a false dichotomy between the Church and Scripture which elevated Scripture to a place of authority unheard of in the early Church.

But is this really true?

Since you have cited some of the church fathers, I should make the following necessary comments:
  1. When you cite them speaking of the Tradition of the apostles – they are referring to the WRITTEN Tradition of the apostles – Holy Scripture. Check the context of your quotes, and I can guarantee that this is the case. You do not read the church fathers – do you? You only grab what others have ripped out of context and copy paste them at me. Ha ha – admit it! You didn’t even cite the source of your information! How irresponsible- 👍
But just to show you that you are abusing these fathers – we will now look at many of the plainest and clearest statements of these church fathers to see if the Reformers had indeed elevated the Holy Scriptures to a place of authority unheard of in the early Church.

Irenaeus (130- 202 AD)

“But as we follow for our teacher the one and only true God, and possess his words as the rule of truth, we will all speak alike with regard to the same things.” (ANF, Vol. I, Against Heresies 4:35:4.)

“We have learned from none others the plan of our salvation, than from those through whom the Gospel has come down to us, which they did at one time proclaim in public, and, at a later period, by the will of God, handed down to us in the Scriptures to be the ground and pillar of our faith. For it is unlawful to assert that they preached before they possessed ‘perfect knowledge’ as some do even venture to say, boasting themselves as improvers of the apostles.” (ANF, Vol. I, Against Heresies, 3.1.1.)

“Such then, is their system, which neither the prophets announced, nor the Lord taught, nor the apostles delivered, but of which they boast that beyond all others, they have a perfect knowledge. They gather their views from other sources than the Scriptures, and to use a common proverb, they strive to weave ropes of sand.” (ANF, Vol. I, Against Heresies 1.8.1.)

“So then, in the first place, we prove from the authoritative Scriptures that all the things which have been mentioned, visible and invisible, have been made by one God. For men are not more to be depended upon than the Scriptures; nor are we to give up the declarations of the Lord, Moses, and the rest of the prophets, who have proclaimed the truth, and give credit to them who do indeed utter nothing of a sensible nature, but rave about untenable opinions.” (ANF, Vol. I, Against Heresies 2:30:6.)

“It is not possible that the Gospels can be either more or fewer in number than they are. For, since there are four zones of the world in which we live, and four principal winds, while the Church is scattered throughout all the world, and the ‘pillar and ground’ of the Church is the Gospel and the Spirit of Life, it is therefore fitting that we should have four pillars, breathing out immortality on every side, and vivifying men afresh.” (ANF, Vol. I, Against Heresies 3.11.8.)

“But that all his Epistles are consonant to these declarations, I shall, when expounding the apostle, show from the Epistles themselves, in the right place. But while I bring out by these proofs, the truths of Scripture, and set forth briefly and compendiously, things which are stated in various ways, do also attend to them with patience, and not deem them prolix; taking this into account - that proofs of the things which are contained in the Scriptures cannot be shown except from the Scriptures themselves.” (ANF, Vol. I, Against Heresies 3:12:9)
 
Hey don’t beat your head against the wall! It will be ok.

Just re-read my posts with an open mind - and I will pray that the Lord will reveal the truth of the sufficiency of His holy word.

But thanks for the dialog!

Anybody else want to twist the scriptures and deny that John 20:30, 31 do not teach the sufficiency of Holy Writ? 😃
You still haven’t been able to prove any of the questions before you so you move onto another point. In the interest of understanding one another I will explain our thoughts on scriputre.

You are trying to prove the material sufficiency of scripture. Catholics agree with this point. The issue you face is being able to prove that Scripture is so clear that one does not need anything else for clarification. So let us go back to adultery. You have not been able to show anything that defines which is the correct defintion of adultery. Mathew or all of the other verses.

You have taken John 20:30 - 31 out of context and misapplied the message. We believe in material sufficiency of scripture. Now prove that scripture is so clear that all can understand it. This is going to be tough with 30,000 denomination all having different messages.
 
Clement of Alexandria (150 - 215 AD)

“And is not the demonstration, which we possess, that alone which is true, as being supplied out of the divine Scriptures, the sacred writings, and out of the ‘God-taught wisdom’ according to the apostle?” (ANF. Vol II, The Stromata, Book II, Chapter XI)

“The demonstration, however, which rests on opinion is human, and is the result of the rhetorical arguments or dialectic syllogisms. For the highest demonstration, to which we have already alluded, produces intelligent faith by the adducing and opening up of the Scriptures to the souls of those who desire to learn; the result of which is knowledge (gnosis).” (ANF. Vol II, The Stromata, Book II, Chapter XI)

"And after a little again he draws the inference that the Scriptures owed their origin to the divine providence, asserting as follows: ‘For we know that God enjoined these, and we say nothing apart from the Scriptures.’ (ANF, Vol. II, The Stromata, Book VI, Chapter XV)

“And this signified that the Scripture is clear to all, when taken according to the bare reading.” (ANF, Vol. II, The Stromata, Book VI, Chapter XV)

“But those who are ready to toil in the most excellent persuits, will not desist from the search of the truth, till they get the demonstration rom the Scriptures themselves.” (ANF Vol. II, The Stromata, Book VII, Chapter XVI)

“For we may not give our adhesion to men on a bare statement by them, who might equally state the opposite. But if it is not enough merely to state the opinion, and if what is stated must be confirmed, we do not wait for the testimony of men, but we establish the matter that is in question by the voice of the Lord, which is the surest of all demonstrations, or rather is the only demonstration; in which knowledge, those who have merely tasted the Scriptures are believers; while those who, having advanced further, and become correct expounders of the truth, are Gnostics. Since also, in what pertains to life, craftsmen are superior to ordinary people, and model what is beyond common notions; so, consequently, we also, giving a complete exhibition of the Scriptures from the Scriptures themselves, from faith persuade by demonstration.” (ANF Vol. II, The Stromata, Book VII, Chapter XVI)

“But the truth is not found by changing the meanings (for so people subvert all true teaching), but in the consideration of what perfectly belongs to and becomes the Sovereign God, and in establishing each one of the points demonstrated in the Scriptures again from similar Scriptures. Neither, then, do they want to turn to the truth, being ashamed to abandon the claims of self-love; nor are they able to manage their opinions, by doing violence to the Scriptures. But having first promulgated false dogmas to men; plainly fighting against almost the whole Scriptures, and constantly confuted by us who contradict them; for the rest, even now partly they hold out against admitting the prophetic Scriptures, and partly disparage us as of a different nature, and incapable of understanding what is peculiar to them. And sometimes even they deny their own dogmas, when these are confuted, being ashamed openly to own what in private they glory in teaching. For this may be seen in all the heresies, when you examine the iniquities of their dogmas. For when they are overturned by our clearly showing that they are opposed to the Scriptures, one of two things may be seen to have been done by those who defend the dogma. For they either despise the consistency of their own dogmas, or despise the prophecy itself, or rather their own hope. And they invariably prefer what seems to them to be more evident to what has been spoken by the Lord through the prophets and by the Gospel, and, besides, attested and confirmed by the apostles.” (ANF Vol. II, The Stromata, Book VII, Chapter XVI)

“Seeing, therefore, the danger that they are in (not in respect of one dogma, but in reference to the maintenance of the heresies) of not discovering the truth; for while reading the books we have ready at hand, they despise them as useless, but in their eagerness to surpass common faith, they have diverged from the truth. For, in consequence of not learning the mysteries of ecclesiastical knowledge, and not having capacity for the grandeur of the truth, too indolent to descend to the bottom of things, reading superficially, they have dismissed the Scriptures.” (ANF Vol. II, The Stromata, Book VII, Chapter XVI)

“Accordingly, those fall from this eminence who follow not God whither He leads. And He leads us in the inspired Scriptures.” (ANF Vol. II, The Stromata, Book VII, Chapter XVI)

“They push truth away, or through the desire of fame, endeavour to invent novelties. For those are slothful who, having it in their power to provide themselves with proper proofs for the divine Scriptures from the Scriptures themselves, select only what contributes to their own pleasures. And those have a craving for glory who voluntarily evade, by arguments of a diverse sort, the things delivered by the blessed apostles and teachers, which are wedded to inspired words; opposing the divine tradition by human teachings, in order to establish the heresy.” (ANF Vol. II, The Stromata, Book VII, Chapter XVI)
 
***FOR CRUSADOR -

It is clear that you are one of those “ignorant and unstable people” who distort the Bible to their own destruction (2Peter3:16) (Pope Peter’s words!)***
Hippolytus of Rome (c. 170-c. 236)

“There is, brethren, one God, the knowledge of whom we gain from the Holy Scriptures, and from no other source. For just as a man, if he wishes to be skilled in the wisdom of this world, will find himself unable to get at it in any other way than by mastering the dogmas of philosophers, so all of us who wish to practise piety will be unable to learn its practice from any other quarter than the oracles of God. Whatever things, then, the Holy Scriptures declare, at these let us took; and whatsoever things they teach, these let us learn; and as the Father wills our belief to be, let us believe; and as He wills the Son to be glorified, let us glorify Him; and as He wills the Holy Spirit to be bestowed, let us receive Him. Not according to our own will, nor according to our own mind, nor yet as using violently those things which are given by God, but even as He has chosen to teach them by the Holy Scriptures, so let us discern them.” (ANF, Vol. V. Against the Heresy of One Noetus, 9.)

HEY CINETTE: Take your time, and get back to me when you have a chance - (and stop beating your head against that wall) 👍
 
Hey don’t beat your head against the wall! It will be ok.

Just re-read my posts with an open mind - and I will pray that the Lord will reveal the truth of the sufficiency of His holy word.

But thanks for the dialog!

Anybody else want to twist the scriptures and deny that John 20:30, 31 do not teach the sufficiency of Holy Writ? 😃
I am not surprised that you cannot tell the difference between sufficient and usefull because you don’t even know how to spell Crusader

You are definitely one of Korah’s cronies (look up his rebellion in Num16:1-35)

:doh2: :hypno: :doh2:
 
The Doctrine of Sola Scriptura teaches that Scripture is the ultimate authority for the Church. It teaches that the Church and Tradition must be subordinated and held accountable to Scripture in that Scripture Alone is God-breathed revelation and the only infallible rule of faith. It also teaches that Scripture is materially sufficient - in that there was no other divine revelation preserved in any other form such as Tradition; and that it is formally sufficient - in that all that is necessary for the Christian faith has been clearly revealed therein.

The Roman Catholic response to this doctrine revived by the Reformers was that Sola Scriptura was no more than a 16th century Protestant novelty, and that it finds no support whatsoever in the patristic writings. Roman apologists since then have charged that the Reformers introduced a false dichotomy between the Church and Scripture which elevated Scripture to a place of authority unheard of in the early Church.

But is this really true?

Since you have cited some of the church fathers, I should make the following necessary comments:
  1. When you cite them speaking of the Tradition of the apostles – they are referring to the WRITTEN Tradition of the apostles – Holy Scripture. Check the context of your quotes, and I can guarantee that this is the case. You do not read the church fathers – do you? You only grab what others have ripped out of context and copy paste them at me. Ha ha – admit it! You didn’t even cite the source of your information! How irresponsible- 👍
But just to show you that you are abusing these fathers – we will now look at many of the plainest and clearest statements of these church fathers to see if the Reformers had indeed elevated the Holy Scriptures to a place of authority unheard of in the early Church.

Irenaeus (130- 202 AD)

“But as we follow for our teacher the one and only true God, and possess his words as the rule of truth, we will all speak alike with regard to the same things.” (ANF, Vol. I, Against Heresies 4:35:4.)

“We have learned from none others the plan of our salvation, than from those through whom the Gospel has come down to us, which they did at one time proclaim in public, and, at a later period, by the will of God, handed down to us in the Scriptures to be the ground and pillar of our faith. For it is unlawful to assert that they preached before they possessed ‘perfect knowledge’ as some do even venture to say, boasting themselves as improvers of the apostles.” (ANF, Vol. I, Against Heresies, 3.1.1.)

“Such then, is their system, which neither the prophets announced, nor the Lord taught, nor the apostles delivered, but of which they boast that beyond all others, they have a perfect knowledge. They gather their views from other sources than the Scriptures, and to use a common proverb, they strive to weave ropes of sand.” (ANF, Vol. I, Against Heresies 1.8.1.)

“So then, in the first place, we prove from the authoritative Scriptures that all the things which have been mentioned, visible and invisible, have been made by one God. For men are not more to be depended upon than the Scriptures; nor are we to give up the declarations of the Lord, Moses, and the rest of the prophets, who have proclaimed the truth, and give credit to them who do indeed utter nothing of a sensible nature, but rave about untenable opinions.” (ANF, Vol. I, Against Heresies 2:30:6.)

“It is not possible that the Gospels can be either more or fewer in number than they are. For, since there are four zones of the world in which we live, and four principal winds, while the Church is scattered throughout all the world, and the ‘pillar and ground’ of the Church is the Gospel and the Spirit of Life, it is therefore fitting that we should have four pillars, breathing out immortality on every side, and vivifying men afresh.” (ANF, Vol. I, Against Heresies 3.11.8.)

“But that all his Epistles are consonant to these declarations, I shall, when expounding the apostle, show from the Epistles themselves, in the right place. But while I bring out by these proofs, the truths of Scripture, and set forth briefly and compendiously, things which are stated in various ways, do also attend to them with patience, and not deem them prolix; taking this into account - that proofs of the things which are contained in the Scriptures cannot be shown except from the Scriptures themselves.” (ANF, Vol. I, Against Heresies 3:12:9)
You are doing what you accuse others of doing. YOu haven’t read Irenaus have you? If you did you would know why your statement is again taken out of context.

St. Irenaeus is refuting a heresie at the time that Gnostics believed that they had secret oral tradition. As such he used Scripture against them. Why can not this logic be used against Catholics? Because he fully supported one doctrinal authority and that was the episcopal councils. In fact he supported papal authority.

I have read many of the early Church Fathers and your statement trying to use St. Iranaeus against the Church is not good. Either you are intentionally misrepresenting facts or haven’t read the Church Father.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top