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Novocastrian
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Except, ultimately, the Latin Church of the fifteenth and sixteenth centuries, under the various popes…
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alwayswill
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that would be true if every Christian was since Pentecost in the Book of Acts was a Capital C Catholic.
I disagree that is a truth.
I would agree that if it were not for the testimony (small t tradition) of the universal, small-c catholic church we would not have recognized which writings were God breathed.
and what if God spoke from His throne and no one heard it?
does that in any way diminish the authority of God’s spoken word?
No one ever can grant authority to Scripture anymore that someone can grant authority to God Himself.
It is impossible for any authority to be higher than God.
and writings breathed out by God (scriptures) have the same authority as God.
That authority does not change whether anyone heard it, knows it, understands it, likes it, follows it, or approves of it.
God’s authority cannot never be diminished.
), that the term Protestant is of little specificity, and virtually worthless when discussing practice and theology.
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mackbrislawn
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You’re absolutely right. It should be small c catholic, meaning the universal church which includes the Orthodox, et al. It is the teaching and tradition of these churches that scripture is God-breathed, inspired, that particular writings contain God’s word.alwayswill;13905271 [QUOTE said:
Of course, according to history, it is the Roman Church that evangelized western Europe, and we also in the Americas are heirs of that evangelization, hence we get our own belief in scripture through the Roman Church, not through the Orthodox.
Actually, it probably should be capital T Tradition, which implies divine Tradition. We believe the selection of God-breathed writings was divinely guided.
I scratch my head at the above statements as I don’t follow what they are getting at. They are all true, but what are they are for. One comment: I don’t know of anyone who talks about granting authority to Scripture. As we all know, Scripture already has its authority because it is from God. What we can do is acknowledge that it is from God. This acknowledgement or recognition may not be easy, and requires a divinely guided Church to do so.
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AmbroseSJ
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Your point is completely invalid. The fact that every Christian since Pentecost is not a Capital C Catholic has NO BEARING on whether you are following Capital T Tradition of the Catholic Church or not. The FACT that Christians have splintered off from the Catholic Church more than a thousand years AFTER the Sacred Tradition of the Catholic Church established what was God-breathed Scripture and what wasn’t, does not somehow retroactively invalidate the Capital T Sacred Tradition which Protestants now follow. Martin Luther himself admitted this. (Although some of the more virulent/radical reformers may have denied it.)
There WAS NO small c catholic church until AFTER the splintering off of various schismatics and heretics. Their decision has no bearing on the effectiveness and Truth of the Visible, One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church which has continued from Pentecost till now.
The reason there is such a thing as a small c catholic church at all is by reason of Baptism validly administered. IOW, the invisible Christian church, unlike the Visible Catholic Church- The City on the Hill, the light to the Gentiles.
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JB_Brother_4446
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Wrong.
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alwayswill
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now you know one:
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=13812857&postcount=300
with over 3400 posts
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pablope
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mackbrislawn
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Well, now I know one. Or do I?
Maybe you can explain what “granting authority to scripture” can possibly mean.
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alwayswill
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AmbroseSJ
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I’ll explain why you are wrong.
The reason certain writings from the past are considered “God-breathed” is because the Church of Christ, the Catholic Church has told us so. This Divine Church, under our King, and Head, Jesus Christ has the authority over writings in OUR Tradition. Therefore, likewise, the Catholic Church is the SOLE Authorized interpreter of those same Sacred Scriptures.
Just as Jesus opened the Scriptures to the men on their way to Emmaus, and Phillip opened the Scriptures to the Eunuch, Only the Magisterium of the Catholic Church (the Apostolic Succession) is authorized to open the Scriptures to Christian believers. Everyone else is a usurper, and a wolf in sheep’s clothing, robbing and pillaging.
Therefore, without the Catholic Church you merely have her book, closed and mysterious. I won’t deny that the Holy Spirit MAY inspire, or at least permit some to draw necessary sustenance from SS. However, it will always be warped, twisted and broken to non-Catholics.
Sorry, but it has to be said.
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alwayswill
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What does that have to do with what Scripture is?I’ll explain why you are wrong.
The reason certain writings from the past are considered “God-breathed” is because the Church of Christ, the Catholic Church has told us so. This Divine Church, under our King, and Head, Jesus Christ has the authority over writings in OUR Tradition. Therefore, likewise, the Catholic Church is the SOLE Authorized interpreter of those same Sacred Scriptures.
Just as Jesus opened the Scriptures to the men on their way to Emmaus, and Phillip opened the Scriptures to the Eunuch, Only the Magisterium of the Catholic Church (the Apostolic Succession) is authorized to open the Scriptures to Christian believers. Everyone else is a usurper, and a wolf in sheep’s clothing, robbing and pillaging.
Therefore, without the Catholic Church you merely have her book, closed and mysterious. I won’t deny that the Holy Spirit MAY inspire, or at least permit some to draw necessary sustenance from SS. However, it will always be warped, twisted and broken to non-Catholics.
Sorry, but it has to be said.
For example:
Whether or not God said ““God helps those who help themselves.”” is irrelevant to the authority of God’s word.
God is the highest authority regardless of what He says
God is the highest authority regardless of whether He said ““God helps those who help themselves” or not
God is the highest authority BECAUSE of who God is
In the same way:
Whether or not the Chronicles of Adam or 3 Corinthians is Scripture is irrelevant to the authority of Scripture
Scripture is the highest authority regardless of what anyone thinks is Scripture
Scripture is the highest authority BECAUSE of what Scripture is NOT because of what is Scripture
All Scripture is breathed out by God; therefore it has the same authority as God speaking from His Throne.
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mackbrislawn
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.I’ll explain why you are wrong.
The reason certain writings from the past are considered “God-breathed” is because the Church of Christ, the Catholic Church has told us so. This Divine Church, under our King, and Head, Jesus Christ has the authority over writings in OUR Tradition. Therefore, likewise, the Catholic Church is the SOLE Authorized interpreter of those same Sacred Scriptures.
Just as Jesus opened the Scriptures to the men on their way to Emmaus, and Phillip opened the Scriptures to the Eunuch, Only the Magisterium of the Catholic Church (the Apostolic Succession) is authorized to open the Scriptures to Christian believers. Everyone else is a usurper, and a wolf in sheep’s clothing, robbing and pillaging.
Therefore, without the Catholic Church you merely have her book, closed and mysterious. I won’t deny that the Holy Spirit MAY inspire, or at least permit some to draw necessary sustenance from SS. However, it will always be warped, twisted and broken to non-Catholics.
Sorry, but it has to be said.
Precisely. I’m glad you said it.
Scripture was always written by members of the Church (the congregation, the household of faith), to other members of the Church, and for other members of the Church. That is the context scripture is intended in and for. Just as individual verses of the bible have a context which must be taken into account for proper understanding, scripture itself has a context which must be taken into account. That context is the pre-existing Church.
You have to already be a member of the Church for scripture to be written to you. (Or read to you as was intended in the beginning.) As Paul says to Timothy, scripture equips the man of God. Which means you have to already be a man of God for scripture to equip you. The Christian message is spread by men of God equipped with Scripture.
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alwayswill
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Do Catholics believe that Scripture carries the same authority as God?
Do Catholics believe that misinterpreting Scripture does not diminish the authority Scripture?
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mackbrislawn
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Some odd questions; I’m not sure where they’re coming from. However, I suppose. But what are you getting at? For all practical purposes if you misinterpret Scripture it may as well not have authority. That authority will do you no good.
Scripture has its full recognized authority only within its proper context, the Church. And it is only because of the Church that you know about God at all: men of God, teaching from the God-given authority of the Church. You’re right, God has ultimate authority, and God has given His authority to teach only to His Church.
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alwayswill
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I don’t think it is odd at all:
It often seems that when I bring up the authority of Scripture the Catholic response inevitably turns to interpretation.
Does misinterpreting/ misunderstanding what God states diminish His authority?
Does misinterpreting/ misunderstanding what Scripture states diminish its authority?
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AmbroseSJ
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You don’t realize it, apparently, but you are engaging in circular arguments.
“Circular reasoning (Latin: circulus in probando, “circle in proving”; also known as circular logic) is a logical fallacy in which the reasoner begins with what they are trying to end with. The components of a circular argument are often logically valid because if the premises are true, the conclusion must be true. Circular reasoning is not a formal logical fallacy but a pragmatic defect in an argument whereby the premises are just as much in need of proof or evidence as the conclusion, and as a consequence the argument fails to persuade. Other ways to express this are that there is no reason to accept the premises unless one already believes the conclusion, or that the premises provide no independent ground or evidence for the conclusion.”
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AmbroseSJ
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Authority MUST come from a PERSON, whether it be God or the Church in the person of the Magisterium. A book, even the Bible, of itself has no authority whatever. The authority that the Bible carries is due entirely to the Church. IOW, it is the authority of the Church which makes the Bible have ANY authority whatever.
Let’s look at it from another angle. Did Jesus leave us a book? No! He left us HIS Apostles and St. Peter who were inspired by the Holy Spirit. Jesus said, whoever rejects you rejects me, and Him who sent Me. Therefore all authority from God is given to the Church. That is WHY we have a NEW TESTAMENT at all. The authority of the New Testament (and the OLD) resides within the Church. The Authority OF GOD. Jesus formally gave this authority to St. Peter and the Apostles. Jesus NEVER gave a book ANY authority whatever.
Your mistake is in using the word Authority. You should have said TRUTH not Authority. However, to non-Catholics, the Truth is hidden and can’t be found within the Bible without the aid of the Church.
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alwayswill
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thanks
I do know what Circular reasoning is
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SaintFrancis333
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It should still be chant, according to Vatican II. Unfortunately Vatican II was never implemented. Instead we are faced with the “spirit” of Vatican II, which is nothing but modernist improvisation and “innovation”. Amazing grace is a nice song to listen to outside of Mass but since it preaches heresy it has no place in Mass.
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