A
alwayswill
Guest
I disagree with nearly everything you said.
I’ll adress this point:
you asked “Did Jesus leave us a book?”
Did Jesus have spoken words?
Does God have written words?
Are the words of God authoritative?
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I’ll adress this point:
you asked “Did Jesus leave us a book?”
Did Jesus have spoken words?
Does God have written words?
Are the words of God authoritative?
N
Novocastrian
Guest
I think your claim, which I’ve bolded, is probably true. But I’m not sure why. Could you spell out why you think personhood is a necessary condition of authority?Authority MUST come from a PERSON, whether it be God or the Church in the person of the Magisterium.
Secondly, what do you mean when you claim personhood for the Church’s magisterium? My understanding was that magisterium is, pretty literally, the teaching office of the Church; or the-Church-in-respect-of-teaching, if you will.
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alwayswill
Guest
do other Catholics agree with this?Authority MUST come from a PERSON, whether it be God or the Church in the person of the Magisterium. A book, even the Bible, of itself has no authority whatever. The authority that the Bible carries is due entirely to the Church. IOW, it is the authority of the Church which makes the Bible have ANY authority whatever.
Let’s look at it from another angle. Did Jesus leave us a book? No! He left us HIS Apostles and St. Peter who were inspired by the Holy Spirit. Jesus said, whoever rejects you rejects me, and Him who sent Me. Therefore all authority from God is given to the Church. That is WHY we have a NEW TESTAMENT at all. The authority of the New Testament (and the OLD) resides within the Church. The Authority OF GOD. Jesus formally gave this authority to St. Peter and the Apostles. Jesus NEVER gave a book ANY authority whatever.
Your mistake is in using the word Authority. You should have said TRUTH not Authority. However, to non-Catholics, the Truth is hidden and can’t be found within the Bible without the aid of the Church.
"The authority that the Bible carries is due entirely to the Church. IOW, it is the authority of the Church which makes the Bible have ANY authority whatever. "
M
mackbrislawn
Guest
Of course it turns to interpretation. God and Scripture may have authority, but without interpretation, this authority is to no use.I don’t think it is odd at all:
It often seems that when I bring up the authority of Scripture the Catholic response inevitably turns to interpretation.
Does misinterpreting/ misunderstanding what God states diminish His authority?
Does misinterpreting/ misunderstanding what Scripture states diminish its authority?
I’ve already answered your questions, no. But to what point are they? That’s why they are odd. They don’t seem to be apropos of anything. Now, certainly misinterpreting/misunderstanding what God states diminishes His power to communicate, or rather, diminishes its use to you. It is the duty of the communicatee to have the proper ears to hear.
God has ultimate authority, and God also delegates His authority. God has delegated authority to teach and preach and interpret Scripture to His Church. Does not belonging to that Church diminish its authority? No. Just like not recognizing God’s authority does not diminish it, so not recognizing the Church’s authority does not diminish it.
A
alwayswill
Guest
the granter of authority has greater authority than the receiver.Of course it turns to interpretation. God and Scripture may have authority, but without interpretation, this authority is to no use.
I’ve already answered your questions, no. But to what point are they? That’s why they are odd. They don’t seem to be apropos of anything. Now, certainly misinterpreting/misunderstanding what God states diminishes His power to communicate, or rather, diminishes its use to you. It is the duty of the communicatee to have the proper ears to hear.
God has ultimate authority, and God also delegates His authority. God has delegated authority to teach and preach and interpret Scripture to His Church. Does not belonging to that Church diminish its authority? No. Just like not recognizing God’s authority does not diminish it, so not recognizing the Church’s authority does not diminish it.
follow this:
The authority of God is greater than the authority of the Church
The authority of Scripture is equal to the authority of God
therefore
The authority of Scripture is greater than the authority of the Church
G>C
S=G
so S>C
M
mackbrislawn
Guest
Yes, we agree.do other Catholics agree with this?
"The authority that the Bible carries is due entirely to the Church. IOW, it is the authority of the Church which makes the Bible have ANY authority whatever. "
By God’s own authority, He established His Church. By looking at history, we can see that certain members of that Church wrote various scriptures. They wrote these scriptures to other members of God’s Church. Subsequently, God’s Church, using God’s authority, determined which scriptures of the mass of writings written were God-breathed. (Not all were God-breathed.) That is, the Church decided if the Church member who wrote that particular scripture, was inspired by God when he wrote it.
By this process we have Scripture as we know it today. It may be noted that this decision making process took centuries to be complete. And perhaps some may feel it is not yet complete. Different ancient churches have different lists of what constitutes inspired scripture. But the Christian Scriptures that we here accept come from the authority of the Catholic Church.
A
alwayswill
Guest
would Moses agree?Yes, we agree.
By God’s own authority, He established His Church. By looking at history, we can see that certain members of that Church wrote various scriptures. They wrote these scriptures to other members of God’s Church. Subsequently, God’s Church, using God’s authority, determined which scriptures of the mass of writings written were God-breathed. (Not all were God-breathed.) That is, the Church decided if the Church member who wrote that particular scripture, was inspired by God when he wrote it.
By this process we have Scripture as we know it today. It may be noted that this decision making process took centuries to be complete. And perhaps some may feel it is not yet complete. Different ancient churches have different lists of what constitutes inspired scripture. But the Christian Scriptures that we here accept come from the authority of the Catholic Church.
M
mackbrislawn
Guest
Cute.the granter of authority has greater authority than the receiver.
follow this:
The authority of God is greater than the authority of the Church
The authority of Scripture is equal to the authority of God
therefore
The authority of Scripture is greater than the authority of the Church
G>C
S=G
so S>C
However, the premise, “The authority of Scripture is equal to the authority of God” cannot be true. It cannot be true because it is God who grants authority to Scripture, and by the first premise stated, the granter of authority always has greater authority than the receiver.
Since there is a contradiction within the premises, the conclusion is rendered faulty.
A
alwayswill
Guest
just so you know:Yes, we agree.
By God’s own authority, He established His Church. By looking at history, we can see that certain members of that Church wrote various scriptures. They wrote these scriptures to other members of God’s Church. Subsequently, God’s Church, using God’s authority, determined which scriptures of the mass of writings written were God-breathed. (Not all were God-breathed.) That is, the Church decided if the Church member who wrote that particular scripture, was inspired by God when he wrote it.
By this process we have Scripture as we know it today. It may be noted that this decision making process took centuries to be complete. And perhaps some may feel it is not yet complete. Different ancient churches have different lists of what constitutes inspired scripture. But the Christian Scriptures that we here accept come from the authority of the Catholic Church.
In my opinion, i consider this statement nearly blasphemous,
"The authority that the Bible carries is due entirely to the Church. IOW, it is the authority of the Church which makes the Bible have ANY authority whatever. “”
I do not understand How can anyone think that the very writings breathed out by God Himself are subject to anyone’s approval for their authority.
A
alwayswill
Guest
When God speak from His throne does He GRANT authority to His spoken words?Cute.
However, the premise, “The authority of Scripture is equal to the authority of God” cannot be true. It cannot be true because it is God who grants authority to Scripture, and by the first premise stated, the granter of authority always has greater authority than the receiver.
Since there is a contradiction within the premises, the conclusion is rendered faulty.
Of course not
God’s spoken word has the the same authority as God for because of what it is; The spoken word of God!
When God breathed out writings does He GRANT authority to His written words?
Of course not
God’s written n word has the the same authority as God for because of what it is; The written word of God!
God does GRANT authority to Scripture : it already has that authority because of what it is.
M
mackbrislawn
Guest
He sure would.would Moses agree?
Moses was a member of God’s church at that time. He was the first to write scripture, and God’s church, His people, existed for generations before Moses, without scripture. It was God’s people who came to accept certain of their writings as inspired, and the idea of Holy Scripture was born.
M
mackbrislawn
Guest
Don’t you yourself have to approve of them? Don’t you have to accept them as breathed out by God Himself?just so you know:
I consider this statement nearly blasphemous,
"The authority that the Bible carries is due entirely to the Church. IOW, it is the authority of the Church which makes the Bible have ANY authority whatever. “”
How dare anyone think that the very writings breathed out by God Himself are subject to anyone’s approval for their authority.
A
alwayswill
Guest
God’s authority is not dependent on my approval or acceptance or beliefDon’t you have to approve of them? Don’t you have to accept them as breathed out by God Himself?
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mackbrislawn
Guest
That’s for sure. And neither is the Church’s authority dependent on your approval.God’s authority is not dependent on my approval or acceptance.
But, again, if you do not accept God’s authority, what good is His authority? It is your acceptance of Scripture that makes it Scripture for you. To a pagan it is not Scripture and has no authority over them, just like you do not accept authority of the Church over you.
A
alwayswill
Guest
Jesus speaking from His throne :That’s for sure. And neither is the Church’s authority dependent on your approval.
But, again, if you do not accept God’s authority, what good is His authority? It is your acceptance of Scripture that makes it Scripture for you. To a pagan it is not Scripture and has no authority over them, just like you do not accept authority of the Church over you.
‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’
Do you think someone not accepting the authority of Jesus gets to say “I reject your authority”
and do you think that it is absolutely necessary for salvation that every human creature be subject to the Roman Pontiff; and submit to the authority of the Pope?
M
mackbrislawn
Guest
That’s all nice, but how are we to know what writings God has breathed out? We don’t know apart from the Church.When God speak from His throne does He GRANT authority to His spoken words?
Of course not
God’s spoken word has the the same authority as God for because of what it is; The spoken word of God!
When God breathed out writings does He GRANT authority to His written words?
Of course not
God’s written n word has the the same authority as God for because of what it is; The written word of God!
God does GRANT authority to Scripture : it already has that authority because of what it is.
God’s spoken word? Maybe for mystics. Does God speak to you? Everyone else has only God’s written words, not spoken words, and no new written words have come out for two thousand years. And those written words were only determined as coming from God by the authority He granted to the Church, who in turn preserved them in manuscripts copied by men. (Realize we don’t have the original God-breathed writings, only copies of copies of copies…)
True, Scripture may have authority for what it is, but first it must be figured out what it is! That is the job of God’s Church.
M
mackbrislawn
Guest
These are good points. I’m glad you brought them up.Jesus speaking from His throne :
‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’
Do you think someone not accepting the authority of Jesus gets to say “I reject your authority”
and do you think that it is absolutely necessary for salvation that every human creature be subject to the Roman Pontiff; and submit to the authority of the Pope?
Do you think someone not accepting the authority of Jesus’ Church gets to say, “I reject your authority?”
Do you think it is absolutely necessary for salvation that every human creature be subject to the God and Scriptures you recognize?
A
alwayswill
Guest
What is Scripture is a completely different subject than what Scripture is.That’s all nice, but how are we to know what writings God has breathed out? We don’t know apart from the Church.
IOW
What writings are Scripture is a completely different subject than the characteristics and attribute of Scripture
Nope wasn’t talking about mystics at all:God’s spoken word? Maybe for mystics. Does God speak to you? Everyone else has only God’s written words, not spoken words, and no new written words have come out for two thousand years.
I was talking about God speak from His thromne: do you think He has only spoke to living humans?
Recognizing the what wriitngs are of Scripture is completely different thanAnd those written words were only determined as coming from God by the authority He granted to the Church, who in turn preserved them in manuscripts copied by men. (Realize we don’t have the original God-breathed writings, only copies of copies of copies…)
"The authority that the Bible carries is** due entirely** to the Church. IOW, it is the authority of the Church which makes the Bible have ANY authority whatever. “”
once againTrue, Scripture may have authority for what it is, but first it must be figured out what it is! That is the job of God’s Church.
What is Scripture is a completely different subject than what Scripture is.
What writings are Scripture is a completely different subject than the characteristics and attribute of Scripture
A
alwayswill
Guest
Do you think someone not accepting the authority of Jesus’ Church gets to say, “I reject your authority?”These are good points. I’m glad you brought them up.
Do you think someone not accepting the authority of Jesus’ Church gets to say, “I reject your authority?”
Do you think it is absolutely necessary for salvation that every human creature be subject to the God and Scriptures you recognize?
nope:
Jesus is God
Do you think it is absolutely necessary for salvation that every human creature be subject to the God and Scriptures you recognize?
Yes, absolutely !!!
Scripture teaches that Jesus is Lord of all, and the faith He demands involves unconditional surrender (Romans 6:17-18; 10:9-10). In other words, Christ does not bestow eternal life on those whose hearts remain set against Him (James 4:6).
Surrender to Jesus’ lordship is not an addendum to the biblical terms of salvation;** the summons to submission is at the heart of the gospel invitation throughout Scripture**.
Scripture teaches that the object of faith is Christ Himself, not a creed or a promise (John 3:16). Faith therefore involves personal commitment to Christ (2 Corinthians 5:15). In other words, all true believers follow Jesus (John 10:27-28)
Scripture teaches that real faith inevitably produces a changed life (2 Corinthians 5:17).
Salvation includes a transformation of the inner person (Galatians 2:20).
The nature of the Christian is new and different (Romans 6:6).
The unbroken pattern of sin and enmity with God will not continue when a person is born again (1 John 3:9-10).
Those with genuine faith follow Christ (John 10:27),
love their brothers (1 John 3:14),
obey God’s commandments (1 John 2:3; John 15:14),
do the will of God (Matthew 12:50),
abide in God’s Word (John 8:31),
keep God’s Word (John 17:6),
do good works (Ephesians 2:10),
and continue in the faith (Colossians 1:21-23; Hebrews 3:14)
Scripture teaches** that God’s gift of eternal life includes all that pertains to life and godliness** (2 Peter 1:3; Romans 8:32), not just a ticket to heaven:
gty.org/resources/articles/A114/an-introduction-to-lordship-salvation
M
mackbrislawn
Guest
What is Scripture is a completely different subject than what Scripture is.
IOW
What writings are Scripture is a completely different subject than the characteristics and attribute of Scripture
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