Sola Scriptura doesn't exist

[RobHom]

I don’t see your point, the Holy Spirit inspired putting the Bible together so that the Church wouldn’t fail.

Good point! The Holy Spirit inspired those Catholics to compile the Canon of the Bible…and so the Catholic Church would not fail, just as it has not, and will not… I’m actually happy to see that you do agree with the Scriptures on at least “one” count…that being where Christ Himself gave Peter his commission and told him that the gates of hell would not prevail against the Church.

 

[RobHom]

JTBT I am curious where in scripture does it say Sola Scriptura?

In Christ
:grouphug:

I think that is a question many of us would like to see answered!

Peace!

 

[jdevoir]

Are you sure about that? What gives you the authority to make that declaration? You?

Seems you have declared yourself an un-reproachable authority!

Yes or no?

Answer, please

I think JT refers to the book of Jude where it says the full deposit of faith has been given…that is true but the ECF and the CC today believes that faith is both oral and written and is interpreted by the Church for our guidance so we dont mess up…just think if the world was one in belief as Christ wanted us to be we would not have to be having these “discussions” we could be doing the 2nd greatest commandment that Jesus gave us by loving our neighbor as ourself Peace be with all of us

 

[trrocks03]

Before we get too far off of this important question…here it is again reposted:

Let me restate my original question, and fellow Catholics, if this doesn’t make sense to you either, let me know.

Was the bible the deciding factor in the church’s survival when it was being compiled? If they did not compile a bible, would the Church have ceased to exist?

The CHURCH is the Pillar and Foundation of TRUTH…so says scripture…so it sounds like the Church would not have ceased to exist…oh yeah and Jesus also said…the gates of hell would not prevail against the CHURCH

Personally, I believe that the Catholic Church’s Councils to determine the Canon of the Bible contributed greatly to the survival of the Church. It would have survived even without the Canon…because Christ Himself deemed it so. However, I further believe that had not the Canon been established…there would be Bibles being published that would be nothing at all like our Bible and apostasy and heresy would be so rampant as to make what occurs today to seem to be “child’s play”.

That is my humble opinion…

Good point! The Holy Spirit inspired those Catholics to compile the Canon of the Bible…and so the Catholic Church would not fail, just as it has not, and will not… I’m actually happy to see that you do agree with the Scriptures on at least “one” count…that being where Christ Himself gave Peter his commission and told him that the gates of hell would not prevail against the Church.

These are excellent answers. If you consider the fact that the ECF chose to compile a bible, and then were inspired by the Holy Spirit when doing so, then that is how we got the bible we have today. However, if the ECF had decided that a better way of dispercing the Word was through engravings on rocks, or engravings on Church pillars (ironic), or simply word of mouth, THE CHURCH STILL WOULD PREVAIL. This is because Jesus said it will never fall.

Why is this important? Because with this simple explaination, sola scriptura is completely irrelevent. Scripture is NOT what defines the Church. The Church defines Scripture. Indeed, both are very important to the Christian, but Scripture does not trump the source it came from!

 

[SilentKnight]

Simple question and without saying both,what is more important

Scripture or Tradition

Which is more important: The right eyeball or the left? God the Father or God the Son?

Scripture can exist without tradition,

Scripture’s very existence is a manifestation of tradition.

but Tradition cannot exist without scripture.

It could and did for many years. It doesn’t now.

SK

 

[SilentKnight]

They decided to compile a book because heretics (some of whom were Priest and Bishops) were coming forward with false or modified Gospels and letters from Paul and claiming that they were real… So the Churches got together to compare what everyone was using, ex.
this church had a letter from Paul, and that church had a copy of the same letter etc, and they matched, well keep going until you get the canon.

Indeed, keep going.

Who were these ECF’s that compiled the Bible into one consolidated book? What standard did they use to ascribe scriptural status to a given letter?

SK

 

[SilentKnight]

I think the Bible was composed to combat the corruption of the Church.

How does a book - ANY book - combat corruption?

It is the written record of apostiolic teaching that we can always come back and check ourselves against.

This is a “romantic” theory for the stand-alone. But I’m afraid it jumps to all kinds of unfounded conclusions.

1. Who wrote the Bible to begin with?
2. Who compiled it?
3. What standard did they use to compile it? The canon that was spelled out in the OT? Apostolic origin?
4. What sort of corruption would the Bible combat against if it were all compiled correctly? Obviously not moral corruption. Doctrinal corruption? Obviously that didn’t work either. (Reference the 33,000 different denominations of Christianity that now exist all based on the “Bible alone”.)

The only way to truly guard against the corruption of which you speak is to have living representatives of Christ speaking the truth with living voices and then wielding the authority necessary to make sure that all those who wish to call themselves Christian comply with that unified teaching.

Scripture alone obviously cannot accomplish this.

SK

 

[JTBT]

Indeed, keep going.

Who were these ECF’s that compiled the Bible into one consolidated book? What standard did they use to ascribe scriptural status to a given letter?

SK

oh I get it now you want to claim that it was the Roman Catholic Church that did it all… Well I disagree, it was the ECF, they were Catholic but not Roman Catholic. The Roman Catholic Church Empire didn’t exist then, the Churches as a collective compiled the books not just the Church of Rome

 

[JTBT]

How does a book - ANY book - combat corruption?
if someone is changing what a letter said to suit their own purposes, and you produce the orginal well then you have just combated corruption with a letter/book

This is a “romantic” theory for the stand-alone. But I’m afraid it jumps to all kinds of unfounded conclusions.

1. What sort of corruption would the Bible combat against if it were all compiled correctly? Obviously not moral corruption. Doctrinal corruption? Obviously that didn’t work either. (Reference the 33,000 different denominations of Christianity that now exist all based on the “Bible alone”.)
   that is pure propaganda, you cannot back up that numbers

The only way to truly guard against the corruption of which you speak is to have living representatives of Christ speaking the truth with living voices and then wielding the authority necessary to make sure that all those who wish to call themselves Christian comply with that unified teaching.

Scripture alone obviously cannot accomplish this.

SK

 

[trrocks03]

oh I get it now you want to claim that it was the Roman Catholic Church that did it all… Well I disagree, it was the ECF, they were Catholic but not Roman Catholic. The Roman Catholic Church Empire didn’t exist then, the Churches as a collective compiled the books not just the Church of Rome

Did the protestant churches start in the 1500s or the 300s?

 

[SilentKnight]

oh I get it now you want to claim that it was the Roman Catholic Church that did it all…

Stop. We’re leaping across too many lilipads at one time again. Take the questions in succession for what they are.

SK

 

[trrocks03]

1. What sort of corruption would the Bible combat against if it were all compiled correctly? Obviously not moral corruption. Doctrinal corruption? Obviously that didn’t work either. (Reference the 33,000 different denominations of Christianity that now exist all based on the “Bible alone”.)
   that is pure propaganda, you cannot back up that numbers

Actually you are right. 33,000 is inaccurate.

Check out this website for the real number.

Look at bullet number 43. denominations

christianity.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?zi=1/XJ&sdn=christianity&cdn=religion&tm=15&gps=462_582_1276_871&f=10&tt=11&bt=0&bts=0&zu=http%3A//www.gordonconwell.edu/ockenga/globalchristianity/resources.php

 

[jdevoir]

SilentKnight- Thank you for your (name removed by moderator)ut. My thread was saying that sola scriptura does not mean that others things are not also important, which they certainly are, but that none can rise to the level of the Word of God as ultimate authority. After I re-read what I had written I see that it can be understood differently.
Your points on tongues and baptism are well taken and people out there believe a plethora of things, but basically salvation can be viewed in one of three ways: either faith alone or faith+works or works only and as a generalization protestantism, catholicism and judaism (leaving out other belief systems which are by man’s doings) fall in one of these categories.Did not intend to get off the subect of S.S.
Also after reading the first 28 threads it appears as if some argue that the one who was there first has the right of ultimate interpretation or ownership of Jesus apostolates and ultimate successors of them. Also the recipients of the scriptures and rightful owners of the title of the Church of Christ. I think God is being left out of the picture.Sure, Jesus left Peter and other disciples the keys of the kingdom but this is for all believers who are made king and priests, ambassadors for Christ,as we pass on the gospel news to a perishing world. The church in Col. &Ephes. is the body of Christ, spiritual not a physical institution and God left His words which this body of Christ recognized as inspired (it was not for man to decide what was or was not inspired but to recognized what He had left for us). Jesus knew what was in man, would He leave it up to mankind to decide? I think a wise God was the chooser of all the books in the bible and not man.
Lastly SK, Ijust reviewed your thread #20 and wholeheartedly agree with you and hope my words here are taken in the spirit of edification and charity that I intend.
God bless, TITO.

Hi Tito, above you say that “Jesus left Peter and other disciples the keys of the kingdom but this is for all believers who are made king and priests, ambassadors for Christ,as we pass on the gospel news to a perishing world.” So do you believe then that what ever you bind on earth is bound in heaven also? And that you can forgive sins? Also can you lead me to scripture where it states that scripture is more important than the Church that Christ founded?

In Christ
:grouphug:

 

[JTBT]

Stop. We’re leaping across too many lilipads at one time again. Take the questions in succession for what they are.

SK

ask honest questions, I don’t want to do the whole shotgun leading question debate it is not productive,
if you have a case to make then make it.

my point is the Roman Catholic Church (as it exist today) didn’t exist when the Bible was compiled anymore than the Baptist Church did. by that I mean the Churches didn’t define themselves by being in communion with Rome, they were self ruling

 

[Chris258]

1. What sort of corruption would the Bible combat against if it were all compiled correctly? Obviously not moral corruption. Doctrinal corruption? Obviously that didn’t work either. (Reference the 33,000 different denominations of Christianity that now exist all based on the “Bible alone”.)

that is pure propaganda, you cannot back up that numbers

I hesitate to use the 33000 denomination figure because when discussing an issue such as this, the crux of the matter is often not jurisdictional denominationalism per se but rather denominations’"adherence to particular doctrines. The 33000 figure refers more to the former, delineating and numbering the “Christian communities” throughout the world, even numbering 242 Catholic “denominations” based on what rite, etc.

Nonetheless, even if we do not resort to exaggerated claims that all 33000 of those denominations adhere to unique doctrine, the point is still made. Even if you decide to make the absurd claim that each of the 27 major Protestant blocs adheres fully to a defined doctrine without deviation, it still shows how the idea of the Bible alone as the sole authority has not succeeded in staving off doctrinal corruption (unless you want to claim that the contradictory doctrines of these denominations are all given by the same Holy Spirit of Truth).

This is a site analyzing the article in the World Christian Encyclopedia, from which the 33000 figure is obtained, in detail.

bringyou.to/apologetics/a106.htm

 

[jdevoir]

JTBT I am curious where in scripture does it say Sola Scriptura?

In Christ
:grouphug:

Have you found that verse yet JTBT?

In Christ
:grouphug:

 

[Michael_Francis]

Thread has drifted from topic and is closed.
MF