Sola Scriptura family problem

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How about the canon of the New Testament? There is no divinely-inspired table of contents. How about the doctrine that the canon of Scripture is closed? Have you ever considered that a strict adherence to sola scriptura and private judgment would require you to follow the example of the LDS church and entertain the possibility that there are other Scriptures besides the Bible? After all, if you reject the authority of the Catholic Church to be the sole interpreter of Scripture, the next logical step would be to reject her authority to be the sole producer of Scripture.
We have good reasons to believe we have the right canon of scripture. Its not based because the church says so, but on the very scriptures themselves that are “God-breathed”. No church authority can make something God breathed.
In regards to the LDS, i don’t consider them “sola scripturans” but more catholic in there approach. They, as catholics believe in other kinds of “revelations”. What sola scriptura requires of me is to test all docs and teachings by the scriptures themselves. If a doc or practice does not line up with them, it is not binding.
Catholics on the other hand because they must submit to their church no matter what. Even if it is not taught in scripture. Take the practice of not eating meat on Fridays. For a catholic to do so in the 50’s for example would have been a sin. Such a practice was not taught in scripture.
 
Does your church consider protestants heretics?
Generally, no.

Although sola fide (faith alone) and sola scriptura (scriptures alone) are formally defined heresies, to be a Heretic one must first have the truth and then abandone it to adhere to a defined heresy. The vast majority of Protestants do not have an accurate understanding of Catholic doctrine or have not been exposed to evidences or compelling arguments in favor of Catholic doctrine. Even former Catholics often do not understand that which they left.

For the label, Heretic, to stick, there needs to be a certain degree of obstinance and disregard for the presentation of compelling evidence of orthodox doctrine.
 
Generally, no.

Although sola fide (faith alone) and sola scriptura (scriptures alone) are formally defined heresies, to be a Heretic one must first have the truth and then abandone it to adhere to a defined heresy. The vast majority of Protestants do not have an accurate understanding of Catholic doctrine or have not been exposed to evidences or compelling arguments in favor of Catholic doctrine. Even former Catholics often do not understand that which they left.

For the label, Heretic, to stick, there needs to be a certain degree of obstinance and disregard for the presentation of compelling evidence of orthodox doctrine.
No. You are describing apostasy. Protestants for the most part are heretics as they retain faith in Christ. Heresy differs from apostasy. From New Advent: The apostate a fide abandons wholly the faith of Christ either by embracing Judaism, Islamism, Paganism, or simply by falling into naturalism and complete neglect of religion; **the heretic always retains faith in Christ. ** The Protestants are therefore not apostate but they are heretical.
 
We have good reasons to believe we have the right canon of scripture. Its not based because the church says so, but on the very scriptures themselves that are “God-breathed”. No church authority can make something God breathed.
In regards to the LDS, i don’t consider them “sola scripturans” but more catholic in there approach. They, as catholics believe in other kinds of “revelations”. What sola scriptura requires of me is to test all docs and teachings by the scriptures themselves. If a doc or practice does not line up with them, it is not binding.
Catholics on the other hand because they must submit to their church no matter what. Even if it is not taught in scripture. Take the practice of not eating meat on Fridays. For a catholic to do so in the 50’s for example would have been a sin. Such a practice was not taught in scripture.
You know…this is so wrong in so many ways, it’s hard to know where to begin. But it might help if, before pronouncing authoritatively on what Catholics believe, you actually knew something about what Catholics believe. What your churches are telling you is bunk, starting with the canard that we believe in “other kinds of ‘revelations.’” Public revelation was closed with the death of the last Apostle. That, by the way, is yet another matter of the Tradition you reject. It’s not in Scripture.

There is no comparison between the Catholic Church and the LDS church. You have to be ignorant about both in order to think there is.
 
I’m having a family problem: I don’t believe in sola scriptura. My family accuses me of “hating God’s word” and “not believing in God’s word” and even calling me an athiest! How should I respond to this with charity?
Sit everyone down. Give them a handout containing an overview of Calvinism along with a handout giving an overview of Arminianism. Include all of the supporting Bible verses for these differing points of view. Then ask them who is right and how they know it.

They cannot invoke any feelings or visceral impressions about the validity of a given view because this would be subjective and people diverge wildly when they do this.

The answer is this. There is hermeneutical safety in the interpretation of historical Church. The Church was basically united on the big issues up until the 16th century.
 
can you point me to an offical source from the catholic church itself that says to the effect that these are inspired-inerrant traditions at same level as scripture?
For example this is what the scripture says about itself in Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart.

Do these traditions have this power to what the scriptures themselves claim?
Huh? Your question makes no sense. Let’s back up. We agreed I thought that the word came to us orally upon which tradition acted upon which it was eventually written down. Correct?

Let’s take water baptism. Jesus actually was baptised. Jesus verbally told us that we had to be baptised. We had to be born from above in water and in spirit. The Church, the apostles, the disciples, the converts, began baptising and being baptised actually. Based on what was orally said to and by the Apostles concerning what Jesus said. Therefore we are now in tradition. This is Tradition in the big T sense. One must be baptised because Jesus said so and because he did so and because everyone following after said so and did so. So when the Bible was put together included are the Gospels and Acts that say this tradition is true. Do you see? Our baptism is in the Scriptures that you read because those who put the Scripture together felt the tradition of baptism and the oral words of Jesus were inspired. So they recorded it. Why is this concept that oral words and traditions are what led to Scripture so hard for you to understand? Scriptures did not lead to oral transmission and tradition. It is the other way around. Just as Abraham had nothing in writing when he took off after his God. Nothing. No scripture. What he had was a oral tradition. Oral tradition. Everything every Christian has whether it be Catholic or any other type or any Jew has is oral tradition written down eventually. Why are you having trouble understanding this?
 
You know…this is so wrong in so many ways, it’s hard to know where to begin. But it might help if, before pronouncing authoritatively on what Catholics believe, you actually knew something about what Catholics believe. What your churches are telling you is bunk, starting with the canard that we believe in “other kinds of ‘revelations.’”

My church tells me nothing what catholics believe but i get my understanding from discussing with catholics and what i read (including catholic docs). The "other kinds of revelation that i am referring to are things like the doctrines on Mary, indulgences, etc.

Public revelation was closed with the death of the last Apostle.
When pope pius in 1954(?) declared something about Mary, was that considered revelation on his part?

That, by the way, is yet another matter of the Tradition you reject. It’s not in Scripture.

There is no comparison between the Catholic Church and the LDS church. You have to be ignorant about both in order to think there is.
I don’t think so. If you read some of the writings of the time, you will find that mormomism is in aprt a response to the catholic church.
 
Huh? Your question makes no sense. Let’s back up. We agreed I thought that the word came to us orally upon which tradition acted upon which it was eventually written down. Correct?

correct
Let’s take water baptism. Jesus actually was baptised. Jesus verbally told us that we had to be baptised. We had to be born from above in water and in spirit. The Church, the apostles, the disciples, the converts, began baptising and being baptised actually. Based on what was orally said to and by the Apostles concerning what Jesus said. Therefore we are now in tradition. This is Tradition in the big T sense. One must be baptised because Jesus said so and because he did so and because everyone following after said so and did so. So when the Bible was put together included are the Gospels and Acts that say this tradition is true. Do you see?
yes.

\Our baptism is in the Scriptures that you read because those who put the Scripture together felt the tradition of baptism and the oral words of Jesus were inspired. So they recorded it. Why is this concept that oral words and traditions are what led to Scripture so hard for you to understand?

i understand this. Now, lets apply that to the traditions of the catholic church. For example, who was the very first person to teach that a Christian should pray to Mary?

Who was the first person to teach that Mary was assumned into heaven?

Scriptures did not lead to oral transmission and tradition. It is the other way around. Just as Abraham had nothing in writing when he took off after his God. Nothing. No scripture. What he had was a oral tradition. Oral tradition. Everything every Christian has whether it be Catholic or any other type or any Jew has is oral tradition written down eventually. Why are you having trouble understanding this?
I must have not made myself clear to you. I agree with you here. What i want to know is how catholics ground their traditions. That’s why a list of these traditions and when they started and by whom is so important.
 
No. It is not grounded in Scripture.
If its not grounded in the scripture, then how do you know its true?

The Scripture is grounded in the fullness of truth. We already agreed on that when we agreed that our written word was based on the oral tellings and traditions that came before it.
Would you not agree that the “fullness of the truth” that you claim to have is greater than what the apostles had?

I understand it is difficult when your understanding is based on a backwards concept of history. But try again to figure out how the Bible you hold in your hand came from. It did not fall out of the sky complete into your living room. Or if it did, I hope you have are in good hands with allstate.😃
I have studied how the Bible came to be quite exxtensively and as you say here it did not fall out of the sky.
 
Absolutely.😃
I gather you personally consider protestants heritics. Correct?

Do you happen to have some offical support from the catholic church itself that also considers protestants heritics? Is there some offical document to this effect?
 
My church tells me nothing what catholics believe but i get my understanding from discussing with catholics and what i read (including catholic docs). The "other kinds of revelation that i am referring to are things like the doctrines on Mary, indulgences, etc.
You haven’t been reading enough, or maybe you’ve been reading the wrong things and talking to ill-informed Catholics (perhaps disgruntled former Catholics at your own church?). Your statement that your reading “includ[es] catholic docs” makes clear that your reading does not consist exclusively in Catholic documents; in fact, judging by your views as expressed in your posts, I’d be willing to bet your reading consists primarily in non-Catholic materials. You cannot truthfully consider yourself to be well-informed on the Catholic faith, as exemplified in the next excerpt:
When pope pius in 1954(?) declared something about Mary, was that considered revelation on his part?When pope pius in 1954(?) declared something about Mary, was that considered revelation on his part?
In 1950, Pope Pius XII defined the dogma of the Assumption of Mary: the dogma that Mary was assumed body and soul into heaven. Just as she was preserved from the corruption of sin from the moment of her conception (the Immaculate Conception), so also she was preserved from the corruption of death. The Church has held this since the time of the Apostles; Pope Pius merely defined as dogma that which the Church has always believed. Incidentally, it’s the same with the dogma of Transubstantiation. The word going around Protestant circles is that this dogma was made up at the Fourth Lateran Council in 1215. The truth is that the Church has always believed it; it was only formally defined when the need arose to correct errors about it. The definition of dogma is usually a response to some controversy; it is not the invention of new dogma. There is no new dogma.
I don’t think so. If you read some of the writings of the time, you will find that mormomism is in aprt a response to the catholic church.
Whether or not that’s true has nothing to do with whether Mormonism is comparable to Catholicism. It isn’t.

By the way, when you write your text directly into a quote box, that makes it very difficult to respond to your posts. Could you maybe use the quote tool from now on?
 
You haven’t been reading enough, or maybe you’ve been reading the wrong things and talking to ill-informed Catholics (perhaps disgruntled former Catholics at your own church?). Your statement that your reading “includ[es] catholic docs” makes clear that your reading does not consist exclusively in Catholic documents; in fact, judging by your views as expressed in your posts, I’d be willing to bet your reading consists primarily in non-Catholic materials. You cannot truthfully consider yourself to be well-informed on the Catholic faith, as exemplified in the next excerpt: In 1950, Pope Pius XII defined the dogma of the Assumption of Mary: the dogma that Mary was assumed body and soul into heaven. Just as she was preserved from the corruption of sin from the moment of her conception (the Immaculate Conception), so also she was preserved from the corruption of death. The Church has held this since the time of the Apostles; Pope Pius merely defined as dogma that which the Church has always believed. Incidentally, it’s the same with the dogma of Transubstantiation. The word going around Protestant circles is that this dogma was made up at the Fourth Lateran Council in 1215. The truth is that the Church has always believed it; it was only formally defined when the need arose to correct errors about it. The definition of dogma is usually a response to some controversy; it is not the invention of new dogma. There is no new dogma. Whether or not that’s true has nothing to do with whether Mormonism is comparable to Catholicism. It isn’t.

By the way, when you write your text directly into a quote box, that makes it very difficult to respond to your posts. Could you maybe use the quote tool from now on?
I’m not sure how to use the quote box. I click on the qiote button when i respond. What do i need to do to make it as you suggest?

thanks
 
Originally Posted by Victorious
You haven’t been reading enough, or maybe you’ve been reading the wrong things and talking to ill-informed Catholics (perhaps disgruntled former Catholics at your own church?). Your statement that your reading “includ[es] catholic docs” makes clear that your reading does not consist exclusively in Catholic documents; in fact, judging by your views as expressed in your posts, I’d be willing to bet your reading consists primarily in non-Catholic materials. You cannot truthfully consider yourself to be well-informed on the Catholic faith, as exemplified in the next excerpt;

Great. From what i gather from you then you are pretty well informed by catholic faith and what it teaches. You are a rare exception in my expierence
 
In 1950, Pope Pius XII defined the dogma of the Assumption of Mary: the dogma that Mary was assumed body and soul into heaven.

On what historical documentation is this claim based on? Were there eyewitness accounts from the 1st century that we can look at?

Just as she was preserved from the corruption of sin from the moment of her conception (the Immaculate Conception), so also she was preserved from the corruption of death.

Again, where is the evidence? Its not mentioned in the scriptures that this was indeed true of her.

The Church has held this since the time of the Apostles; Pope Pius merely defined as dogma that which the Church has always believed.

I think if you study the history of this doctrine and start in the scriptures you won’t find any mention of this. There is no evidence that the apostles believed this about Mary.
 
Does your church consider protestants heretics?
absolutely not…

a heretic is an individual who is baptized into the body of Christ, and who is aware of a Truth, but chooses to ignore and/or teach otherwise
 
I gather you personally consider protestants heritics. Correct?

Do you happen to have some offical support from the catholic church itself that also considers protestants heritics? Is there some offical document to this effect?
Is it possible you can read what a heretic is first? Why ask if you are something if you do know what it means. Posted are the quotes on why Luther and the subsequent protestants were heretics.
Here is a link to the spread of heresy within the Catholic Church.newadvent.org/cathen/07256b.htm#REF_V

"Passing over the great schism that rent East from West, and the many smaller heresies which sprang up in the Middle Ages without leaving a deep impression on the Church, we arrive at the modern sects which date from Luther and go by the collective name of Protestantism. The three elements of success possessed by Arianism reappear in Lutheranism and cause these two great religious upheavals to move on almost parallel lines. Luther was eminently a man of his people: the rough-hewn, but, withal sterling, qualities of the Saxon peasant lived forth under his religious habit and doctor’s gown; his winning voice, his piety, his learning raised him above his fellows yet did not estrange him from the people: his conviviality, the crudities in his conversation and preaching, his many human weaknesses only increased his popularity. When the Dominican John Tetzel began to preach in Germany the indulgences proclaimed by Pope Leo X for those who contributed to the completion of St. Peter’s Basilica in Rome, opposition arose on the part of the people and of both civil and ecclesiastical authorities. Luther set the match to the fuel of widespread discontent. He at once gained a number of adherents powerful both in Church and State; the Bishop of Würzburg recommended him to the protection of the Elector Frederick of Saxony. In all probability Luther started on his crusade with the laudable intention of reforming undoubted abuses. But his unexpected success, his impetuous temper, perhaps some ambition, soon carried him beyond all bounds set by the Church. By 1521, that is within four years from his attack on abuse of indulgences, he had propagated a new doctrine; the Bible was the only source of faith; human nature was wholly corrupted by original sin, man was not free, God was responsible for all human actions good and bad; faith alone saved; the Christian priesthood was not confined to the hierarchy but included all the faithful. The masses of the people were not slow in drawing from these doctrines the practical conclusion that sin was sin no longer, was, in fact, equal to a good work.

With his appeal to the lower instincts of human nature went an equally strong appeal to the spirit of nationality and greed. He endeavored to set the German emperor against the Roman pope and generally the Teuton against the Latin; he invited the secular princes to confiscate the property of the Church. His voice was heard only too well. For the next 130 years the history of the German people is a record of religious strife, moral degradation, artistic retrogression, industrial breakdown; of civil wars, pillage, devastation, and general ruin. The Peace of 1648 established the principle: Cujus regio illius et religio; the lord of the land shall be also lord of religion. And accordingly territorial limits became religious limits within which the inhabitant had to profess and practise the faith imposed on him by the ruler. It is worthy of remark that the geographical frontier fixed by the politicians of 1648 is still the dividing line between Catholicism and Protestantism in Germany. The English Reformation, more than any other, was the work of crafty politicians. The soil had been prepared for it by the Lollards or Wycliffites, who at the beginning of the sixteenth century were still numerous in the towns. No English Luther arose, but the unholy work was thoroughly done by kings and parliaments, by means of a series of penal laws unequalled in severity."
 
No. You are describing apostasy. Protestants for the most part are heretics as they retain faith in Christ. Heresy differs from apostasy. From New Advent: The apostate a fide abandons wholly the faith of Christ either by embracing Judaism, Islamism, Paganism, or simply by falling into naturalism and complete neglect of religion; **the heretic always retains faith in Christ. ** The Protestants are therefore not apostate but they are heretical.
I’m clear about what apostasy is.

But the New Advent encyclopedia does not support your position that all Protestants are heretics. Heresy is both a thing chosen and a choice. The thing chosen is incorrect doctrine and beliefs. We can agree that sola fide or sola scriptura, for example, are heretical things chosen.

The choice, however, involves dissent and “restricting belief to certain points of Christ’s doctrine selected and fashioned at pleasure.” To dissent and restrict implies starting from the fullness of the faith and subsequently narrowing or modifying that set of beliefs. New Advent also states, “The guilt of heresy is measured not so much by its subject-matter as by its formal principle, which is the same in all heresies: revolt against a Divinely constituted authority.”

My point is many Protestants are not revolting. In fact, many are very conservative and defend what they believe to be orthodox doctrine. They wouldn’t think of narrowing or changing what they understand Biblical Christianity to be. They indeed hold heretical beliefs, but they do not start from a point of full and complete doctrine and then corrupt it. Martin Luther can be called a heretic. But the average Protestant evangelical who does not even accurately know what the Catholic Church teaches is not revolting against anything. It just isn’t accurate to say that all Protestants are heretics.

Moreover, stating that Protestants are necessarily heretics is a lousy way to engage in apologetics.
 
If its not grounded in the scripture, then how do you know its true?
For that matter, how do you know scripture is true? It’s not like God wrote the scriptures himself & handed them out saying “Here you go, this is MY inerrant word. Go read it and decide for yourselves what it means. Have a nice day!” No, of course not. It only took a bunch of men a few centuries to figure out the canon of scripture!

Even though the canon of scripture is accepted as absolute truth, still, how do we know for sure that it is the true, inspired Word of God as it was written by sinful, errant, fallable men?
 
Wrong. We consider Protestants heretics.
The Origin and Spread of Heresy.
newadvent.org/cathen/07256b.htm#REF_V
You are apparently behind the times. Your catechism offers the following:

*Wounds to unity
817 In fact, “in this one and only Church of God from its very beginnings there arose certain rifts, which the Apostle strongly censures as damnable. But in subsequent centuries much more serious dissensions appeared and large communities became separated from full communion with the Catholic Church - for which, often enough, men of both sides were to blame.”[269] The ruptures that wound the unity of Christ’s Body - here we must distinguish heresy, apostasy, and schism[270] - do not occur without human sin:
Where there are sins, there are also divisions, schisms, heresies, and disputes. Where there is virtue, however, there also are harmony and unity, from which arise the one heart and one soul of all believers.[271]

818 “However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers … All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church.”[272]

819 “Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth”[273] are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: “the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements.”[274] Christ’s Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him,[275] and are in themselves calls to “Catholic unity.”[276]*
What say you?
 
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