Sola Scriptura help please

[joe370]

Hey Jon, I will always respond to anything that you write but I don’t think that you and I will see eye to eye regarding the preservation of doctrinal truth in its entirety, in Jesus’ one church, until the end of time, due to the fact that Jesus is forever with His one church, protecting His word so that all people regardless of the century, can have access to what His church had access to in the beginning. But that’s the cool. At the end of a debate people should always walk away from it as friends, especially when it comes to Christian debates.

You said:

On the issue of the Eucharist, the confessions deferred to three things to support the truth of the real presence: 1) the scriptures, 2) the historic consensus of the Church on Earth both east and west. 3) The testimony of the ECF’s.

I understand.

How could a Church that subscribes to the practice of sola scriptura defer to the historic Church and the ECF’s?

The Lutheran church does, according to you. Most don’t though; they see all that early history of Jesus’ church unnecessary. Wrap your head around that one. They simply have blind faith that the CC got it right regarding their infallible bible, which is of course their final authority for everything, including, resolving doctrinal differences, all the while rejecting other things originating from the same church that gave them their bible. In my opinion non-Catholics should either trust the CC founded by God, (that codified the bible) - forever guided by the HS into all truth, regarding doctrinal truth, in toto, or reject the CC as well as the bible, given to them by the CC; seems logical. One can either trust the CC or they can’t regarding doctrinal truth. It seems silly to trust the CC regarding one thing and distrust the CC about another thing.

Because all that they said, the entire historic testimony through history rightly reflects scripture. “This is my body.” “This is my blood.” The words of the Lord Himself, the words of Paul that you quote above, and even John 6 in a predictive sense, point to the real presence. How others chose to follow Zwingli is perplexing, it was to Luther and the reformers as well.

To Zwingli, no doubt, is was probably perplexing how others chose to follow Martin Luther. One of these guys was right according to some and one of these guys was wrong according to some, but neither of these guys were guided by the HS, as a teaching church, into all truth; they left Jesus’ church, forever guided by the HS into all truth. It would be no different if I were to leave the CC and do what these guys did. Not that I am comparing brain pans with ML; he was clearly smarter than me.

Hundreds of man-made churches (leadership) - still deny the true presence and claim that Jesus was speaking in metaphor and they believe that their interpretation is infallible (error free) - based on their unique authoritative interpretation of the bible. If the bible is really the Christians final authority then who am I or you or anyone for that matter, to question some else’s judgment? Ultimately, everyone’s interpretation is the right interpretation, if the bible is the final authority for all, even if everyone comes away from the bible with their own unique slant! That is the achilles heel of SS in my opinion.

Zwingli also believed that the HS was guiding him (his newly established church) - into all truth just as all man-made autonomous churches (leadership) - believe, but only one church in the world can positively make that claim for Christ only established one church. I’m positive that God did/can protect doctrinal truth in His church until the end of time and I’m not talking about the “church militant” in general, (all churches regardless of affiliation) - for doctrinal truth takes on many different faces in the “church militant!” Most churches are right about most things, that I am certain of, but only one church can be right about all things vis-a-vis the teachings of our Lord, and it has nothing to do with the members of that church and how smart they are, theologically speaking; they are teaching error free doctrine by virtue of the fact that Jesus is the founder/architect of His church and the divine custodian of His word, and He entrusted His word to His one church. The HS in some mystical way (in spite of the free will of sinful fallible leaders in the CC) - makes sure that truth is safeguarded in Jesus’ one church. The alternative is: God failed to preserve doctrinal truth in His established church, due to the sin of mankind and the endless scheming efforts of a mere diabolical angel and his followers.

continued…

 

[joe370]

Jon, if the CC is not the church founded by God, and the EOC is not the church founded by God (this split seems to be a bone of contention for you) - then the church founded by God no longer exists. I don’t believe that to be the case. Jesus promised to be with His one church forever (not that I am suggesting that God is not with other churches as well) - which means we can trust the doctrinal guidance of His church - right? That doesn’t mean we can’t trust the Lutheran church; it just means that the fullness of truth can still be found in the church founded by God on Pentecost, in Jerusalem circa AD 33, as opposed to the church founded by Martin Luther in the 16th century or any other church post 16th century. For the most part, we as Christians regardless of denomination, share the same beliefs, and that’s a good thing.

Not to sound like a broken record, but there is one church (and I am not talking about an institution or the church militant) - in the world today that was founded by God, and, no matter how many bad people belong to that church, Jesus’ teachings will always be protected and available to every generation, until the end of time, even in spite of heretical teachings found in man-made churches, such as the symbolic interpretation of the Eucharist. Almost all of the teachings of the CC can be found in the Lutheran church as well, but, with the utmost respect, the HS was not sent to the LC; the HS was sent to the CC which split in the 11th century. I believe your point regarding that schism is: until these 2 churches reconcile, Jesus’ one church, forever guided by the HS into all truth, cannot be found, due to the sin of man that caused the break, but that logic contradicts what the bible says. Jon, I have really tried to see things from your perspective but I’m just not getting it, and trust me, I am not biased on the matter. Perhaps we have reached another impasse my friend, which of course is OK. I always enjoy talking to you.

Quote:
There must be a solution to this problem otherwise the gates of hell have prevailed by inculcating heretical doctrine regarding eternal life:
Again, the fact that humans on earth come to wrong conclusions in no way determines the victory of Christ’s Church, unless you are saying that the debate regarding His presence in the Eucharist rages on in the Church Triumphant. The scripture tells us there will be false teachers. No where does it say that this means the gates of Hell will prevail.

Good point, and I agree, but which church Jon??? All the churches regardless of denomination, combined? Maybe you are right; If you are then doctrinal truth really doesn’t matter. What determines the victory of Christ’s Church and why do you say it like there is only one church in the world today? Yes, the scriptures tells us there will be false teachers, even in His church, but these false teachers can never alter the teachings of Jesus Christ, safeguarded in His church - right?

My point was: even though humans on earth come to wrong conclusions and this of course in no way determines the victory of Christ’s established church, Jesus’ church, thanks to the perpetual guidance of the HS, is protected from teaching heretical doctrine, in spite of the devil’s onslaught. Man made church after man made church can teach and believe what ever they want but Jesus’ church cannot; Jesus’ church must teach what Jesus taught, otherwise the HS is not doing His job and that is impossible.

But even on the Eucharist, there is not concensus between Rome and Orthodoxy regarding the post-schism development of the doctrine of Transubstantiation. From what I can gather, the metaphysics of Transub. are no more appealing to them than to Lutherans (though at least for me, it is far far more appealing than a symbolic presence).

Sure there is. Jon we aren’t gonna do the whole transubstantiation thing again, are we? LOL…It’s just a word. The CC and EOC are in agreement regarding the fact that Jesus’ flesh is true food and His blood is true drink; even if they were not in agreement, Jesus still left us with His one church and the teachings of that church must reflect the teachings of Jesus, due to the perpetual guidance of the HS, otherwise, Jesus failed to preserve all truth in His established church. Jesus only established one church, not hundreds, although I truly believe that these churches are part of Jesus’ Mystical body, albeit horribly disfigured since the reformation, even if these members are taught that Jesus was speaking in metaphor in John 6. It’s not their fault that their church leaders started a church in lieu of belonging to the one church founded by God. In many places people simply don’t have access to the CC, however, that doesn’t negate the fact that one church was founded by God and that that one church gave us the bible and was empowered by God to interpret the bible, and since the 16th century PR hundreds and hundreds of churches were founded by mere men basing their teachings on their interpretation of the the bible, given to them by the church founded by God, all the while rejecting the church founded by God and its interpretation. Something doesn’t seem right about that logic. I am not necessarily talking about the Lutheran church for you are right; the CC and the LC are way more ecumenically minded than most churches established by man as opposed to God, after all, ML was a catholic priest and a great theologian and he embraced most of the beliefs that the CC embrace.

Continued…

 

[joe370]

So, the issue of division is not simply a result of sola scriptura, regardless of the argument of degrees of division.

Jon, I don’t think that we can compare the schism of the CC in the 11th century which resulted in division, with the utter fracture in Jesus’ Mystical Body that took place (that is still taking place) - in the 16th century. Maybe we will simply have to agree to disagree on this one.

I suspect that to Christ, the 1,000 year schism is no more pleasing than the so-called 30,000 denoninations. And neither schism nor division nor false teachings of men in anyway lead to the Gates of Hell prevailing.

I suspect that you would be right. However, that schism didn’t topple Jesus’ one church; it merely divided it, leaving doctrinal truth entirely intact in either the east or the west. Whether one believes it’s the EOC or the CC is a decision everyone must make on their own. I don’t know about 30000, but it has done a great deal more damage than the 11th century schism, and that is because the bible (as opposed to Jesus’ one church leadership - forever guided by the HS into all truth) - became the Christians sole authority; authority became a free for all, every church supposedly being guided by the spirit of truth, into all truth. What a doctrinal mess.

Jon, if a particular church teaches something contrary to what Christ taught regarding eternal life (unless you eat my flesh…you have no life in you) - then the gates of hell have prevailed in the militant church, to a degree, wouldn’t you agree?

Jon, I understand what the LC teaches and believes, but that really wasn’t my question. The question, which is impossible to answer from a scripture alone perspective, and that is the perspective that I am asking you to embrace, is as follows. Either God left the world with His church in His stead, (forever guided by the HS) - to make certain that truth regarding doctrines such as the Eucharist, can be known, in spite of all the man-made churches teaching something contrary to what Jesus taught or, there is no way to know which side is right regarding questions such as the following, and this one is pretty important? For example:

In one corner we have some isolated autonomous churches, eg Evangelical churches - that defer to the bible as their final authority for doctrinal clarification and authoritative resolution, and they come away from the bible believing that Jesus was speaking in metaphor regarding the Eucharist. In the opposite corner we have some isolated autonomous churches as well, eg, some Lutheran churches - deferring to their bible as their final authority for doctrinal clarification and authoritative resolution and they too come away from the same bible believing the exact opposite.

How can one know who’s interpretation is correct regarding the preceding impasse, if in fact the bible is to be the Christians final authority for resolving doctrinal differences. Each and every church leadership defers to their bible as their final authority and they come away from their bible with opposing beliefs regarding certain things. There is either one church (leadership) - founded by God that has the authority to resolve doctrinal differences or there is the bible given to all by the one church founded by God, where all authority can be found for resolving doctrinal differences via individual interpretation. i don’t see a third option if we are looking for one truth regarding any one doctrine.

 

[JonNC]

=joe370;6975062]Jon, if the CC is not the church founded by God, and the EOC is not the church founded by God (this split seems to be a bone of contention for you) - then the church founded by God no longer exists. I don’t believe that to be the case.

Sure it still exists, and the continuing guidance of the HS is still with us. It is an ongoing guidance.

Jesus promised to be with His one church forever (not that I am suggesting that God is not with other churches as well) - which means we can trust the doctrinal guidance of His church - right? That doesn’t mean we can’t trust the Lutheran church; it just means that the fullness of truth can still be found in the church founded by God on Pentecost, in Jerusalem circa AD 33, as opposed to the church founded by Martin Luther in the 16th century or any other church post 16th century. For the most part, we as Christians regardless of denomination, share the same beliefs, and that’s a good thing.

Yes, it is a good thing, something we can build upon. I suspect we will all know the fullness of His truth at Parousia, but that doesn’t mean we should stop trying now. That may be a point of division amongst Protestants, and some Catholics for that matter. Some of us are determine to try for unity.

Not to sound like a broken record, but there is one church (and I am not talking about an institution or the church militant) - in the world today that was founded by God, and, no matter how many bad people belong to that church, Jesus’ teachings will always be protected and available to every generation, until the end of time, even in spite of heretical teachings found in man-made churches, such as the symbolic interpretation of the Eucharist.

With the inclusion your parenthetical phrase, I absolutely agree.

Almost all of the teachings of the CC can be found in the Lutheran church as well, but, with the utmost respect, the HS was not sent to the LC;

Joe, this seems to contradict the CCC, which says: "Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth"273 are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: "the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements."274 Christ’s Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him,275 and are in themselves calls to “Catholic unity.”
If Christ’s Spirit uses my “ecclesial community”, how can you say the HS wasn’t sent to her, even if one accepts the idea that it is under the auspices of the CC?

I believe your point regarding that schism is: until these 2 churches reconcile, Jesus’ one church, forever guided by the HS into all truth, cannot be found, due to the sin of man that caused the break, but that logic contradicts what the bible says

No, my point is that the one Church is divided! There is only on Church of Christ, for which I claim to be a part, and claim (against the foolish denials of some n-C’s) that you are a part. And I agree with Luther that the Catholic Church, those in communion with the Bishop of Rome, holds a very special place in that one true Church, blessed especially by the Holy Spirit.

Jon, I have really tried to see things from your perspective but I’m just not getting it, and trust me, I am not biased on the matter.

Come on, Joe, you are too biased. But honestly, so am I - born, raised, acculturated Lutheran, bonded in many ways to her catholicity (more than her protestantism, which is why I’m here, and not at CARM), and her liturgy. So, I am not ready (yet) to break those bonds, as Fr. Neuhaus was.

Perhaps we have reached another impasse my friend, which of course is OK.

Perhaps so, but it is only ok if we are willing to prayerfully appeal to the Spirit to guide our leaders to continual dialogue, not for compromise, but instead agreement. To accept our differences and walk away is relativism, which we both reject.

I always enjoy talking to you.

Oh, me too. I really meant the “welcome back” after your first post.

Good point, and I agree, but which church Jon??? All the churches regardless of denomination, combined? Maybe you are right; If you are then doctrinal truth really doesn’t matter. What determines the victory of Christ’s Church and why do you say it like there is only one church in the world today? Yes, the scriptures tells us there will be false teachers, even in His church, but these false teachers can never alter the teachings of Jesus Christ, safeguarded in His church - right?

Again, the CCC. *"In fact, **'in this one and only Church of God *from its very beginnings there arose certain rifts, which the Apostle strongly censures as damnable. But in subsequent centuries much more serious dissensions appeared and large communities became separated from full communion with the Catholic Church - for which, often enough, men of both sides were to blame.'269 The ruptures that wound the unity of Christ’s Body - here we must distinguish heresy, apostasy, and schism270 - do not occur without human sin:…"
Here it says “in this one and only Church”. And later “The ruptures that wound the unity of Christ’s Body”. To me there is an implication, which I agree with, that there is only one body of Christ, which now is wounded by division. One body - divided. Not many bodies.

Continued…

 

[JonNC]

Sure there is. Jon we aren’t gonna do the whole transubstantiation thing again, are we? LOL…It’s just a word.

OK.

The CC and EOC are in agreement regarding the fact that Jesus’ flesh is true food and His blood is true drink;

As do we.

 

[joe370]

Hey Jon, I didn’t have a chance to respond to everything for I am working but I will:

I always enjoy talking to you.
Oh, me too. I really meant the “welcome back” after your first post.

I wish more exchanges between Catholics and non-Catholics could be of such good cheer; after all, we are all on the same side, the side of Jesus Christ.

Good point, and I agree, but which church Jon??? All the churches regardless of denomination, combined? Maybe you are right; If you are then doctrinal truth really doesn’t matter. What determines the victory of Christ’s Church and why do you say it like there is only one church in the world today? Yes, the scriptures tells us there will be false teachers, even in His church, but these false teachers can never alter the teachings of Jesus Christ, safeguarded in His church - right?
Again, the CCC. “In fact, 'in this one and only Church of God from its very beginnings there arose certain rifts, which the Apostle strongly censures as damnable. But in subsequent centuries much more serious dissensions appeared and large communities became separated from full communion with the Catholic Church - for which, often enough, men of both sides were to blame.'269 The ruptures that wound the unity of Christ’s Body - here we must distinguish heresy, apostasy, and schism270 - do not occur without human sin:…”

In this ONE church…communities (churches) - became separated from the full communion with the CC - for which, often enough, men of both sides were to blame, and I couldn’t agree more; both sides were to blame!!! The ruptures that wound the unity of Christ’s Body, His one church such as heresy, apostasy, and schism absolutely do not occur without human sin, but this rupture due to the sin of man, that wounded the unity of Christ’s Body, His one church, did not…cannot compromise doctrinal truth according to the holy bible. Jesus even predicted that such things must come to pass:

“Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves…”

Here it says “in this one and only Church”. And later “The ruptures that wound the unity of Christ’s Body”. To me there is an implication, which I agree with, that there is only one body of Christ, which now is wounded by division. One body - divided. Not many bodies.

I think I understand what you are talking about! Perhaps you are right, but, Jesus still left us with the means to know truth regarding all that He taught, in this one, albeit terribly fractured Church of which He is the head and savior. Surely you must agree with this logic? There is only one truth regarding any one doctrine, eg the Eucharist, but several opposing truths regarding any one doctrine in this fractured church of which Jesus is the savior. Jon, if you are right, within this one monolithic assembly which is now terribly fractured by a rupture, due to Satan and the sin of man, wherein lies many many fragmented, isolated autonomous assemblies, all teaching something different in several respects, there still MUST remain a fragmented assembly in Jesus’ fractured Mystical Body, where heresy, apostasy and schism have zero effect and will continue to have zero effect until Jesus’ return?

I still believe that there is but one church founded by God, that sill exists in the world today but I am trying to see reality through your eyes.

Jon, if you are right, do you think that there still remains a fragmented assembly in Jesus’ fractured Mystical Body of which He is the head and savior, forever guided by the HS into all truth as opposed to partial truth, where heresy, apostasy and schism have zero effect, and will continue to have zero effect until Jesus’ return?

 

[JonNC]

=joe370;6976969]

I wish more exchanges between Catholics and non-Catholics could be of such good cheer; after all, we are all on the same side, the side of Jesus Christ.

Agree.

In this ONE church…communities (churches) - became separated from the full communion with the CC - for which, often enough, men of both sides were to blame, and I couldn’t agree more; both sides were to blame!!! The ruptures that wound the unity of Christ’s Body, His one church such as heresy, apostasy, and schism absolutely do not occur without human sin, but this rupture due to the sin of man, that wounded the unity of Christ’s Body, His one church, did not…cannot compromise doctrinal truth according to the holy bible. Jesus even predicted that such things must come to pass:

“Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves…”

I think I understand what you are talking about! Perhaps you are right, but, Jesus still left us with the means to know truth regarding all that He taught, in this one, albeit terribly fractured Church of which He is the head and savior. Surely you must agree with this logic? There is only one truth regarding any one doctrine, eg the Eucharist, but several opposing truths regarding any one doctrine in this fractured church of which Jesus is the savior. Jon, if you are right, within this one monolithic assembly which is now terribly fractured by a rupture, due to Satan and the sin of man, wherein lies many many fragmented, isolated autonomous assemblies, all teaching something different in several respects, there still MUST remain a fragmented assembly in Jesus’ fractured Mystical Body, where heresy, apostasy and schism have zero effect and will continue to have zero effect until Jesus’ return?

I still believe that there is but one church founded by God, that sill exists in the world today but I am trying to see reality through your eyes.

Jon, if you are right, do you think that there still remains a fragmented assembly in Jesus’ fractured Mystical Body of which He is the head and savior, forever guided by the HS into all truth as opposed to partial truth, where heresy, apostasy and schism have zero effect, and will continue to have zero effect until Jesus’ return?

Yes, I do believe there is one truth, and while I have doubts that any one part of the Church Militant is free from error (even my own), I never doubt the possibility and the power of the Holy Spirit.

Jon