Sola Scriptura is Absolutely biblical

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Are you aware that the Catholic church has infallibly interpreted less than 20 verses of the Scriptures? Secondly, **catholics also have their numerous interpretations of various verses and passages and also come to different conclusions. **]
My emphasis

Where is your proof of this?
If this is the case then were all in the same position. You to could be WRONG about your church.
2 separate issues here. One is the writers of Scripture in whom God worked through to produce exactly what He wanted. The same is not true of popes or councils for the mere fact we know of errors that they have committed over time.
Did Moses, the prophets or apostles ever claim to be entirely infallible? Were they always right in what they said and did?
It is said that there are over 200 popes in the church. How many of them claimed to speak infallibly?
😛 Who told you that??? Why did they stop at only 200? 😉
Not so. Protestant believe that the canon is closed for the mere fact no writings have ever been discovered to have been written by an apostle or prophet so far. **Until something comes up that can be shown to have been written by an apostle or prophet we have good grounds for believing the canon is closed. **
The canon is closed. It cannot be opened. So even if a new book DID come to light, it cannot be included. Neither Catholic Orthodox or Protestant are authorised to open the canon.
There lies the rub. It’s all very ugly. I hate the subjectivism I was once joined with, in Protestantism. I love the beauties of Protestantism, the places where it has maintained the Catholic interpretations of Scripture, but I hate the ugliness of reliance on human reasoning that leads to uncertainty and contradictions or disagreements on so many matters of faith.
I am pleased for you that you have peace in Protestantism.

God bless you

Blessings and peace
 
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justasking4:
Lief Erikson
First of all, you don’t know what His word means, as Protestants come to all kinds of different conclusions from one another and from Catholics or Orthodox Christians, so taking it at face value is far from a simple activity.

Are you aware that the Catholic church has infallibly interpreted less than 20 verses of the Scriptures? Secondly, catholics also have their numerous interpretations of various verses and passages and also come to different conclusions.
When you have a doctrine defined, the appropriate scripture interpretations for lots of uninterpreted verses become obvious.

In Catholicism, many doctrines are defined. Thus many scripture interpretations are clear.

When I was a Protestant, on the other hand, I didn’t even know that baptismal water saves. Several Protestants of my personal acquaintance deny the physical resurrection of the dead. One even denied the physical resurrection of Christ. Some Protestants of my acquaintance have denied the Trinity.

In Catholicism, basic doctrines are known, so the meanings of a multitude of scriptures shine out clear, when seen in light of that knowledge, even though they haven’t been specifically interpreted by the Catholic Church. In Protestantism, on the other hand, the basic doctrines are a matter of human opinion (each individual interprets non-infallibly) rather than infallible revelation (the councils), so the basic doctrines can frequently become muddy.
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justasking4:
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Secondly, you don’t know what His word is, because you COULD BE WRONG in your evaluation of the evidence regarding the tests for what God’s Word is. You’re making an educated guess as to what his word is, which is all that a position is that relies upon human reasoning about the canon.

If this is the case then were all in the same position. You to could be WRONG about your church.
All of us transmit all beliefs and experiences through our own brains. You and me both. So there is always a subjective element to our perceptions, and because of that, we have to rest on faith. Evidence and reason can provide support for that faith, but ultimately, of course we both have to have faith.

Here’s the important difference between the pair of us, on matters of faith. My trust is in what I believe to be an infallible source (the Church). Your trust is in what you believe to be a fallible source (tests performed by other people, which you can review to some extent). My trust is in what I believe to be infallible interpretations of Scripture. Your trust is in what you believe to be fallible interpretations of Scripture (as there is no infallible interpreter save the Spirit of God, and we can mishear Him).

So you see the radical differences here? My position is faith in the infallible, yours is faith in the human- in yourself. We both have to believe, but on our beliefs about the reliability of what we’ll believe in, from our own stated viewpoints, we’re miles apart. The human-centeredness of your belief system is what I was challenging with the point I raised.
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justasking4:
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Thirdly, you say that there has only been one Man Who has ever been infallible or inerrant- yet you are quite willing to admit that the teaching of all the writers of genuine books of the Scripture were temporarily inspired by God to produce infallible or inerrant teaching. This puts you on the same page as Catholics who believe that the Pope and Church councils do not err on matters of faith and morals.

2 separate issues here. One is the writers of Scripture in whom God worked through to produce exactly what He wanted. The same is not true of popes or councils for the mere fact we know of errors that they have committed over time.
Oh, that’s IMO silly. The same accusation is leveled at the Scripture itself all the time, and those charges just about always turns out to be false, on close inspection. Same is true with the Deuterocanonicals. On occasions where the Protocanonicals, Deuterocanonicals or infallible statements of the Church have been challenged, usually the accusations can be easily invalidated. On a few times, it can be difficult to figure out where the error in the accusation lies, but we all rest in faith that it is in fact in error, and further historical research will prove it (as it disproved the common 20th century accusation of German scholarship that the Midianites didn’t exist, and thus the Bible was in error). There’s a mixture of faith and strong evidence for us both on these matters. Our positions are not far apart at all, here.

But my point about infallibility was that you yourself admit that ordinary human beings can be infallible in what they say when the Holy Spirit inspires them. You believe that, as you believe the Sacred Scripture to be infallible. Therefore your objection that “only one Man” has been infallible is refuted by your own view of Sacred Scripture. You simply don’t agree with Catholics about the number of sources of infallible sayings.
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justasking4:
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Fourthly, by the reasoning of your final sentence, if you lived in the time of Moses, you would have declined to take his words from the Law at face value, even though he claimed they were God’s Word.

Did Moses, the prophets or apostles ever claim to be entirely infallible? Were they always right in what they said and did?
Absolutely not, but neither do we claim absolute infallibility for the pope either. If he suspects that WW3 might come in 2026, maybe he’s wrong. When he professes something officially, in his capacity as pope, on faith and morals, though, he speaks infallibly.
 
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justasking4:
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Fifthly, we do not say that the popes themselves are infallible or inerrant, except when solemnly declaring a dogma. This is an inerrant teaching from the Holy Spirit.

It is said that there are over 200 popes in the church. How many of them claimed to speak infallibly?
A general belief in the inerrancy of Rome on matters of faith and morals has existed in the Church since the very beginning of Christianity. The precise definition of an infallible papal statement that exists in modern standards didn’t always exist in the Church. I only know of 2 infallible dogmatic definitions that all Catholics agree today are infallible. There are a number of earlier “maybes” which came before the current definition was established in Church practice, but which were probably broadly seen as infallible by Catholics in their own time. We have to be careful in taking positions on those, though, because there are questions over whether or not they fit the Church’s definition of an infallible statement.
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justasking4:
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You already believe in such teachings- the Scripture is entirely compiled of them. That the pope and the councils should be able to produce more such is not outside of the tradition of God’s people. In fact, it is an exclusively Protestant non-Biblical tradition that the distribution of this infallibility among men ended with the closing of the canon (another event not declared infallibly as having occurred, by Sola Scriptura “standards”. The only basis you have for the canon being closed is that the Catholic Church said it is).

Not so. Protestant believe that the canon is closed for the mere fact no writings have ever been discovered to have been written by an apostle or prophet so far. Until something comes up that can be shown to have been written by an apostle or prophet we have good grounds for believing the canon is closed.
Ouch. That’s . . . unbelievably awful. I expect you’re aware of the LARGE number of apocryphal documents from the Early Church time period that have been attributed incorrectly to the apostles or prophets. Many people still have varying views on these. If most Protestants held your view about this, their generally accepted canon would split wide open very, very quickly. Humans just DO come to different conclusions when analyzing evidence. I’m thankful that most Protestants don’t, I think, share your view on this. Most do truly believe the canon is closed.

But your belief that the criteria of infallibility is that the documents be written by the original apostles or prophets is also an extra-biblical position. It’s actually contrary to the Bible, for that matter. Paul himself was not one of the “original apostles.”

Also, just supposing you were right about this being a valid criteria, other people might disagree with you that this is the criteria needed. They might think that private revelation like Joseph Smith’s (maybe confirmed by prophecy, as they think his views were) are enough for including the documents in the Bible. Your view is a personal opinion. Other people’s opinions about the criteria for entering a document into the Bible are bound to differ, when the criteria itself is a human invention rather than a part of an infallible process.
 
Lief Erikson;4289063]
Originally Posted by justasking4
Lief Erikson
First of all, you don’t know what His word means, as Protestants come to all kinds of different conclusions from one another and from Catholics or Orthodox Christians, so taking it at face value is far from a simple activity.
This comment above is yours.
justasking4
Are you aware that the Catholic church has infallibly interpreted less than 20 verses of the Scriptures? Secondly, catholics also have their numerous interpretations of various verses and passages and also come to different conclusions.
Lief Erikson
When you have a doctrine defined, the appropriate scripture interpretations for lots of uninterpreted verses become obvious.
In Catholicism, many doctrines are defined. Thus many scripture interpretations are clear.
You might want to check this theory out by comparing with what Scripture says about the immaculate conception of Mary, her assumption and praying to her. It is anything but clear.
When I was a Protestant, on the other hand, I didn’t even know that baptismal water saves. Several Protestants of my personal acquaintance deny the physical resurrection of the dead. One even denied the physical resurrection of Christ. Some Protestants of my acquaintance have denied the Trinity.
This may be due to being poorly taught and certainly not knowing the Scriptrues.
In Catholicism, basic doctrines are known, so the meanings of a multitude of scriptures shine out clear, when seen in light of that knowledge, even though they haven’t been specifically interpreted by the Catholic Church.
Huh? I have already mentioned the Marian doctrines as major problem. Compare what the Scriptures say are the qualifications of a bishop in I Timothy 3 with the qualifications of a bishop in the Roman Catholic church. Also you may want to look for what the Scriptures teach about the Treasury of Merit.
In Protestantism, on the other hand, the basic doctrines are a matter of human opinion (each individual interprets non-infallibly) rather than infallible revelation (the councils), so the basic doctrines can frequently become muddy.
Are you saying that Protestants are unclear Who Jesus is and what he came to do? Or the means and the way a man is saved?
 
Lief Erikson;4289063]
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Secondly, you don’t know what His word is, because you COULD BE WRONG in your evaluation of the evidence regarding the tests for what God’s Word is. You’re making an educated guess as to what his word is, which is all that a position is that relies upon human reasoning about the canon.
justasking4
If this is the case then were all in the same position. You to could be WRONG about your church.
Lief Erikson
All of us transmit all beliefs and experiences through our own brains. You and me both. So there is always a subjective element to our perceptions, and because of that, we have to rest on faith. Evidence and reason can provide support for that faith, but ultimately, of course we both have to have faith.
i agree.
Here’s the important difference between the pair of us, on matters of faith. My trust is in what I believe to be an infallible source (the Church).
The church is not infallible. It has erred and continues to do so since it is composed of fallen humans. There are lots of examples of this in history.
Your trust is in what you believe to be a fallible source (tests performed by other people, which you can review to some extent).
Not so. I’m ultimately trusting in the Author of the Scriptures.
My trust is in what I believe to be infallible interpretations of Scripture.
What infallible interpretations are you thinking of? With less than 20 verses interpreted you don’t have much. Secondly, your understanding of the interpretations of your church is not infallible either.
Your trust is in what you believe to be fallible interpretations of Scripture (as there is no infallible interpreter save the Spirit of God, and we can mishear Him).
This also applies to you. There is no such thing as an infallible interpreter. I know its claimed by Catholics but it cannot be demonstrated exactly what verses have been infallibly interpreted. Do you know what verses have been infallibly interpreted by your church?
So you see the radical differences here? My position is faith in the infallible, yours is faith in the human- in yourself. We both have to believe, but on our beliefs about the reliability of what we’ll believe in, from our own stated viewpoints, we’re miles apart. The human-centeredness of your belief system is what I was challenging with the point I raised.
You are mistaken in thinking that your church is infallible in its interpretations. i wish it were true but its not. In fact you can read the first 3 chapters of Revelation and see our Lord rebuking churches for holding to false beliefs. Also the Scriptures warn that false teachers will come into the church and decieve many. If the church were infallible or promised divine protection against false teachers these warnings would be absurd.
 
The church is not infallible. It has erred and continues to do so since it is composed of fallen humans. There are lots of examples of this in history.
So then how can the authors of the Scriptures be trusted? How can anyone be trusted to have passed on Jesus’ message?

Since we are all fallen humans, why trust anything?
 
Hello Friends,

“It is written”…

(15) And that from a child thou hast known the holy Scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
(16) All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
(17) That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.
2 Timothy 3:15-17

(18) And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount.
(19) We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:
(20) Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the Scripture is of any private interpretation.
(21) For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost. 2 Peter 1:18-21

Search the Scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. John 5:39

Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. 2 Timothy 2:15

You have the freedom of conscience.
“I receive not honor from men.” John 5:41

If, I repeat if you support freedom of conscience and that of choice, allow the following link to remain, and people to look for themselves. If Catholicism is truth then allow it to be compared.

amazingdiscoveries.org/AD-Media-RtR-Video.html

“Here I stand I can do no other.” Martin Luther

If you do not believe in Sola Scriptura, the following statement from New York Catechism is simple to swallow.

“The Pope takes the place of Jesus Christ on earth…by divine right the Pope has supreme and full power in faith, in morals over each and every pastor and his flock. He is the true vicar, the head of the entire church, the father and teacher of the Christians. He is the infallible ruler, the found of dogmas, the author of and the judge of councils; the universal ruler of truth, the arbiter of the world, the supreme judge of heaven and earth, the judge of all, being judged by no one, God himself on earth.” Quoted in the New York Catechism

God help us when a man places himself above the " Holy One of Israel," Jesus Christ alone is salvation found in.

Righteousness by faith

Galatians 5:5-6
(5) For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.
(6) For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.

(8) For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
(9) Not of works, lest any man should boast.
(10) For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. Ephesians 2:8-10

[Emphasis of bold added, to make clear Jesus Christ alone is salvation in and no other]

amazingdiscoveries.org/AD-Media-RtR-Video.html

Search for yourselves, Jesus Christ wants so much to have a personal relationship with you.
Sorry BibleOnly but you are dead wrong. Sola Scriptura is an unBiblical and dangerous doctrine. It is nothing short of pure heresy.

Look at the following verse and see what you think. I have quoted the Revised Standard Version, a translation acceptable to both Catholics and Protestants:

2 Thessalonians 2:15 RSV So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter.

Also, see the following web page:

scripturecatholic.com/scripture_alone.html
 
So then how can the authors of the Scriptures be trusted? How can anyone be trusted to have passed on Jesus’ message?

Since we are all fallen humans, why trust anything?
First thing that comes to my mind is that the Gospels feature Jesus himself speaking. Many of the things that came to pass were written of in all four Gospels, not all but many. Next, these writings were completely God inspired, so now we are not talking about man alone here. The canons weren’t developed overnight. The process was long and painstaking. The Holy Spirit discerned much to the Early Church fathers.
 
First thing that comes to my mind is that the Gospels feature Jesus himself speaking. Many of the things that came to pass were written of in all four Gospels, not all but many. Next, these writings were completely God inspired, so now we are not talking about man alone here. The canons weren’t developed overnight. The process was long and painstaking. The Holy Spirit discerned much to the Early Church fathers.
On this we agree!

My questions were rhetorical.

A real question I have, what allows someone to trust the Scripture is inspired. Simply because it says it is inspired? If that is the case…I think I might write a Bible too.

And…again…where does Scripture tell us it is the ONLY thing we should ever use to be a Christian? Where does Scripture tell us that all we EVER need to know about Christianity is contained within its pages?

And another question: During that long painstaking process (during when not ever letter was written), what did Christians use to determine their faith and to use as authority in verifying the truth of their faith?
 
Sorry BibleOnly but you are dead wrong. Sola Scriptura is an unBiblical and dangerous doctrine. It is nothing short of pure heresy.

Look at the following verse and see what you think. I have quoted the Revised Standard Version, a translation acceptable to both Catholics and Protestants:

2 Thessalonians 2:15 RSV So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter.

Also, see the following web page:

scripturecatholic.com/scripture_alone.html
If you are going to use 2 Thes 2:15 as a justification for tradition we need to know what traditions Paul was referring to. Do you know what these traditions were specifically?
 
tGette;4289313]On this we agree!
My questions were rhetorical.
A real question I have, what allows someone to trust the Scripture is inspired. Simply because it says it is inspired?
There were tests that were applied to various books that were to become known as Scripture. These tests helped to separate these works from non scriptural works.
If that is the case…I think I might write a Bible too.
And…again…where does Scripture tell us it is the ONLY thing we should ever use to be a Christian?
It doesn’t
Where does Scripture tell us that all we EVER need to know about Christianity is contained within its pages?
All that we need to grow in respect to salvation can be found in them. I Peter 2:2
And another question: During that long painstaking process (during when not ever letter was written), what did Christians use to determine their faith and to use as authority in verifying the truth of their faith?
There has always been the OT. Secondly there were some writings of the apostles in the 1st century that the church had.
 
On this we agree!

My questions were rhetorical.

A real question I have, what allows someone to trust the Scripture is inspired. Simply because it says it is inspired? If that is the case…I think I might write a Bible too.

And…again…where does Scripture tell us it is the ONLY thing we should ever use to be a Christian? Where does Scripture tell us that all we EVER need to know about Christianity is contained within its pages?

And another question: During that long painstaking process (during when not ever letter was written), what did Christians use to determine their faith and to use as authority in verifying the truth of their faith?
Well, you must remember that they had the texts. They just weren’t put together yet.
 
If you are going to use 2 Thes 2:15 as a justification for tradition we need to know what traditions Paul was referring to. Do you know what these traditions were specifically?
Yes, it is the entirety of the oral teaching of the Apostles, the apostolic kerygma, preserved and passed on through the ages in the Catholic Church, and that we call Sacred Tradition.
 
If you are going to use 2 Thes 2:15 as a justification for tradition we need to know what traditions Paul was referring to. Do you know what these traditions were specifically?
The ones practiced by the Church which gave us the Bible!

Think of this analogy.

When you read a cookbook and it says to add a stick off butter and 3 eggs. You know, *by tradition, *to take the plastic off the butter first and to crack the eggs first and not include the shell in the recipe.

Tradition does the same thing for the Bible.
 
Well, you must remember that they had the texts. They just weren’t put together yet.
They also had various other texts that had to be deciphered.

So…you are telling me when Saint Paul wrote his first letter all of his other letters existed already? Or before Saint Paul even wrote anything, they had his writings to determine the faith?
 
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justasking4:
Lief Erikson
When you have a doctrine defined, the appropriate scripture interpretations for lots of uninterpreted verses become obvious.

In Catholicism, many doctrines are defined. Thus many scripture interpretations are clear.

You might want to check this theory out by comparing with what Scripture says about the immaculate conception of Mary, her assumption and praying to her. It is anything but clear.
I’m actually writing a book on the topic.

There’s a ton of material in the Old Testament that typologically foreshadows the life and role in the Church of the Virgin Mary. There also are very important passages in the New Testament that refer to it implicitly. The Marian dogmas, like the Trinity, are not explicit in the scripture, though they are implicit.

However, I can see how these dogmas are something non-Catholics might not arrive at through personal, private interpretations made through the lens of Sola Scriptura. This is one of the places where the fact that the Church teaches these doctrines makes it easier to perceive the scriptural meanings that refer to it.
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justasking4:
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When I was a Protestant, on the other hand, I didn’t even know that baptismal water saves. Several Protestants of my personal acquaintance deny the physical resurrection of the dead. One even denied the physical resurrection of Christ. Some Protestants of my acquaintance have denied the Trinity.

This may be due to being poorly taught and certainly not knowing the Scriptrues.
Well, they’re mature and knowledgeable Christians. They’re also non-denominational, though, which allows for even more variance from Tradition than you normally find among Protestants, because people are more truly relying on Sola Scriptura.

Your reference to them being “poorly taught” is interesting.
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justasking4:
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In Catholicism, basic doctrines are known, so the meanings of a multitude of scriptures shine out clear, when seen in light of that knowledge, even though they haven’t been specifically interpreted by the Catholic Church.

Huh? I have already mentioned the Marian doctrines as major problem.
They aren’t actually a problem at all. I’ve examined the scriptures used by Protestants to object to these dogmas and have examined the scriptures used to support them, and the logic behind both points of view, and usually it comes down to a Protestant misunderstanding of Catholic teaching. I haven’t seen any objections that stick, personally.
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justasking4:
Compare what the Scriptures say are the qualifications of a bishop in I Timothy 3 with the qualifications of a bishop in the Roman Catholic church. Also you may want to look for what the Scriptures teach about the Treasury of Merit.
Perhaps you would like to draw up quotations from the documents that you find incompatible?
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justasking4:
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In Protestantism, on the other hand, the basic doctrines are a matter of human opinion (each individual interprets non-infallibly) rather than infallible revelation (the councils), so the basic doctrines can frequently become muddy.

Are you saying that Protestants are unclear Who Jesus is and what he came to do? Or the means and the way a man is saved?
Well, yes. There is a lot of disagreement in Protestantism over exactly how those things work. I don’t have time to go into it now, though, or yet to respond to your other post . . .
 
They also had various other texts that had to be deciphered.

So…you are telling me when Saint Paul wrote his first letter all of his other letters existed already? Or before Saint Paul even wrote anything, they had his writings to determine the faith?
Oh no, not at all. They were being written as Paul travelled to the different countries and cities and such and preached to the peoples of those different churches. I am speaking of the preachings and teachings of Christ. Remember, they were very recent and very recollectable in the Early Church times.
 
Oh no, not at all. They were being written as Paul travelled to the different countries and cities and such and preached to the peoples of those different churches. I am speaking of the preachings and teachings of Christ. Remember, they were very recent and very recollectable in the Early Church times.
I know, but the New Testament is more than the four Gospels.

What I am trying to understand is, that if the Bible is sole authority, then what was sole authority before Paul wrote all of his letters?

Or are the Gospels all that are needed?

I honestly am just trying to understand Sola Scriptura better.
 
I know, but the New Testament is more than the four Gospels.

What I am trying to understand is, that if the Bible is sole authority, then what was sole authority before Paul wrote all of his letters?

Or are the Gospels all that are needed?

I honestly am just trying to understand Sola Scriptura better.
You are talking to the wrong guy then. I don’t believe in sola scriptura.
 
You are talking to the wrong guy then. I don’t believe in sola scriptura.
Oh, yeah, that’s right. You messaged me a long while back about your beliefs.

I would ask a question but I will not derail.

So…I will wait for a Sola Scripturist to answer I guess.

Thanks SIA! What does that acronym stand for. Scripture is Authority?
 
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