Sola Scriptura is Absolutely biblical

  • Thread starter Thread starter BibleOnly
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
As I read your post, I think you are saying you agree with me that the scriptures are, indeed, inerrant and without error in the original manuscripts. Is this correct?

If that is correct, then in essence you are postulating that Sacred Tradition, too, is inerrant and without error. Is this correct?

If that is correct, then it follows, of necessity, that the Holy Spirit also infallibly worked in other areas other than scripture to produce an inerrant result. I ask, in all sincerity, where is the evidence of this; where is the proof of this Cinette?
If I may offer some comments here, please consider these:
  • Concerning the Scriptures:
I believe that there can be two approaches to accepting that the scriptures are, indeed, inerrant and without error in the original manuscripts either: hard evidence/rigorous assessment or faith. The former is useful for agnostics and athiests.
  • Lee Strobel’s book “The case for the real Jesus” adopts the former approach (as that was his route to believing) - he used several respected, independent biblical historians who he interviewed. They explained that some of the differences between the biblical copies did exist, but did not change the message - they were in effect conveying the intended message. He arrived at the conclusion that Biblical Scripture is indeed inerrant - this is in spite of Bible critics’ claims that there were errors that crept in during the transcription process over the last 2000 years. They also claim that the Bible is the most researched and assessed book and has withstood the centuries of examination! There are many sources of corroboration of events of Jesus’ life, including historians such as Josephus, the Talmud, etc.
  • I shall not dwell on the faith-based acceptance of the Bible as I think I would be preaching to the converted!
  • Concerning tradition:
Patrick Madrid’s book “Pope Fiction” addresses many aspects of myths concerning the papacy. Of concern here, is infallibility which results in heretical teaching or doctrine. Madrid clarifies what infallibility is and what it is not. He also presents examples where some popes did move close to errors in teaching and were prevented from doing so, sometimes in dramatic fashion.

The key issue is that truth comes from God through the holy Spirit. I believe although in Madrid’s case he acknowledges so, the “The case for the real Jesus” implies it.
 
FOR CRAIG KENNEDY

First of all, I want to say I am impressed with the effort and thought you have put into your reply. I share with you a desire to know the truth and to be faithful to Christ.

I am not interested in “winning debates” or “scoring points”. I am only interested in being true to God, as I know you are too. Absolutely. We have to pursue the truth at all cost and pride must not come into it as pride is the root of all sin. We believe only in Jesus and our Faith which is a pearl of great price.

As I read your post, I think you are saying you agree with me that the scriptures are, indeed, inerrant and without error in the original manuscripts. Is this correct? We Catholics believe, as you do, that the scriptures are inerrant and contain everything accurately that God intended to convey to us thru them (don’t forget the HS is there to ensure that the Sacred Books are inspired). The CC accepts all authorized translations made by teams of reputable scripture scholars of all the historic denominations (Protestant and Catholic communities). We believe that God will ensure that we will not be misled. That is why in former centuries if u read history u will notice that the Church was very strict in deciding which translations we should use. This was partially responsible for the lie being spread that Catholics were not allowed to read the Bible. Our God-given infallible teaching authority (Matt 16:18-19) precludes us from falling into error which seems to be your fear.

If that is correct, then in essence you are postulating that Sacred Tradition, too, is inerrant and without error. Is this correct? Without a doubt! Yes – the CC has always taught this. All the truths delivered to us by Christ are inerrant, inspired, Sacred Tradition, part of which is the Bible, the written word.

If that is correct, then it follows, of necessity, that the Holy Spirit also infallibly worked in other areas other than scripture to produce an inerrant result. Alleluia! Amen! I ask, in all sincerity, where is the evidence of this; The evidence of this is contained in the documents of the 21 great general Councils of the Church, starting from Jerusalem in 49 AD (Acts 15) right up to Vatican II (1962-65), as well as in all the teachings and encyclicals of our 265 Popes down the ages where is the proof of this Cinette?

Thank you for your graciousness

Cheers
Cinette:)
 
The church universal (catholic) built upon the foundation of the New Testament prophets and apostles is the pillar and bullwark of the truth.
Impossible. The Church came before the Bible. The Bible as we have it today didn’t exist until around 382AD. That’s **350 **some years **after **the death of Christ!
 
Please give me documented and credible evidence that Christ founded the Roman Catholic Church as an institution.

Please give me proof of your claim.
As soon as you answer the questions I’ve posed to you. This isn’t a one-way street.
 
There is none.
So you’re believing an non-biblical doctrine.
That is Tradition.
However only the Scriptures are inspired-inerrant and therefore qualify as the only ultimate source of authority for Christians.
You don’t know this from Scripture though so you are relying on the Tradition of Martin Luther for this doctrine.
If you know this not to be from Scripture yet it is a true doctrine then Scripture cannot be the only source of doctrine, hence Sola Scriptura is false.
The church. Which church is Paul referring to? Does he mention the Roman Catholic church or the Orthodox Church?
They were the same Church then, Christ founded only one Church.
The church universal (catholic) built upon the foundation of the New Testament prophets and apostles is the pillar and bullwark of the truth.
I assume you mean all Christian everywhere by “church universal (catholic)”, if so, how can they be the “pillar and foundation of truth” seeing as they all believe different things?
 
I posted something similar on another thread as well…

Something to ponder…

Since we can’t even locate the Arc of the Covenant or the Holy Tablets the Commandments were written on, isn’t it safe to say that God would not build His church on something that is suseptable to destruction? Didn’t God send His Only Begotten Son to BE the Word, not to mention the Way, The Truth and The Life? Jesus said He would never leave us, “us” being the One True Universal Church" founded by Him. That is the Church as an entity and every believer and follower of the Church.

If every Bible (inclusive of all translations) were destroyed, where would we go for divine inspiration? Was the Bible Divinely Inspired or divinely commanded? Where in the Bible does it instruct us to “Take no other before it”. It does however tell us to Take no god before the God". Where does Jesus say that when He is no longer earthly bound that we are supposed to hold the Bible is such reverence so as to almost worship it as the end-all, be-all after Him?

When did the Bible become more important than Jesus? When did God say the Church would eventually become so mature in it’s faith that it could turn to the Bible as it’s final inspiration and no more would need be said?

The fact is that God’s Church is alive and ever growning and is in a perpetual state of growing knowledge of the Mysteries. For that, we need interpretation. Not just any interpretation. We need interpretation that has been passed down directly from Christ to His Apostles through the ages. We need the entire Deposit of Faith and not just the Bible. We would be terribly limited if 1.) We relied on the Bible alone for our faith. 2.) We relied furthermore, on our own individual interpretation of the Bible.

Personally, I feel much safer putting my scriptural faith in the hands of the Church than in my own hands. And I mean no disrespect (as I too was once Protestant) but I really have little faith in another person’s interpretation. At least when I go to Mass I am getting a solid foundation of scriptural readings, most importantly, The Gospel and a Homily (sermon) from a person who probably attended school for no less than 8 or 9 years to be where he is in front of me at Mass.

I have no problem at all in entrusting my salvation to the Catholic Church since they have been saving people for 2000 years! 😃
 
I Where does Jesus say that when He is no longer earthly bound that we are supposed to hold the Bible is such reverence so as to almost worship it as the end-all, be-all after Him?
for sure… we are to worship God, not the Bible… His word is a way of getting to Him… not a god in itself…
When did the Bible become more important than Jesus? When did God say the Church would eventually become so mature in it’s faith that it could turn to the Bible as it’s final inspiration and no more would need be said?
a lot of Protestants don’t think we even need to go to church… any church… to be saved… well, technically, there could be a grain of truth to that idea… but it certainly is easier to know waht God wants for our souls if we go and hear His word in His Presence once in awhile… By the way… it is a mortal sin to miss Mass on Sunday… (without having a valid excuse. I mentiion that because even though i was raised Ctholic, i never knew that until i was… “old”😦 ).
Not just any interpretation. We need interpretation that has been passed down directly from Christ to His Apostles through the ages. We need the entire Deposit of Faith and not just the Bible. We would be terribly limited if 1.) We relied on the Bible alone for our faith. 2.) We relied furthermore, on our own individual interpretation of the Bible.
Amen!
Personally, I feel much safer putting my scriptural faith in the hands of the Church than in my own hands. And I mean no disrespect (as I too was once Protestant) but I really have little faith in another person’s interpretation.
The fact that the bible has been SO misinterpreted… (35,000 + denominations) is proof that something is terrible WRONG with the idea of being able to interpret all scirpture… If humans could interpret the Bible perfectly, we would all agree on what it says!!!
I have no problem at all in entrusting my salvation to the Catholic Church since they have been saving people for 2000 years! 😃
:clapping:
 
AlanF;4307750]
Originally Posted by justasking4
There is none.
AlanF
So you’re believing an non-biblical doctrine.
That is Tradition.
Only if i have good reason to believe its true or its not that significant.
Quote:
Originally Posted by justasking4
However only the Scriptures are inspired-inerrant and therefore qualify as the only ultimate source of authority for Christians.
AlanF
You don’t know this from Scripture though so you are relying on the Tradition of Martin Luther for this doctrine.
If you know this not to be from Scripture yet it is a true doctrine then Scripture cannot be the only source of doctrine, hence Sola Scriptura is false.
Before i can address this what is your definition of Sola Scriptura?
Quote:
Originally Posted by justasking4
The church. Which church is Paul referring to? Does he mention the Roman Catholic church or the Orthodox Church?
AlanF
They were the same Church then, Christ founded only one Church.
They are not the same. Just compare the doctrines with some of the doctrines of the Catholic church today.
 
Justasking4, I didn’t respond to your earlier post because originally I sent you five posts, and you only responded to one of them, and many of the points you raised I’d already refuted in the posts you didn’t respond to. However, I realize I’m very prolific and you’re responding to a lot of people, so I’m not objecting at all. Just telling you why I didn’t respond.

Also, I felt that you appear very hardened. You told me before that you wished the Catholics were right about there being infallible councils, but they just aren’t. That’s logical. Catholicism, the way Christianity was practiced from the beginning, is extremely beautiful. But if you can’t accept it, you can’t accept it. So there’s little point in my arguing.

But I do want to respond to the following part of your post that just came up.
Only if i have good reason to believe its true or its not that significant.
You know, the problem with this kind of statement you keep making is that it shows you assert yourself to be your final authority. You are the judge of traditions and scripture interpretations. It’s not like you’re standing next to Jesus, listening to His interpretations and then obeying them, like the apostles were (and they taught their successors to adhere to their interpretations). Instead, you’re looking backward and asserting yourself as your final authority, rather than Jesus or the Bible, for you interpret the Bible (so you, rather than it, is the final authority) and you deny the interpretations of both that the apostles and their successors handed down (Sacred Tradition). Your doctrine is Me-Centered. Not God-Centered. Because you are the final authority in selecting it, not God.

I know you don’t believe the Magesterium’s councils infallibly present God’s voice, so you don’t believe Catholics are in a better position. You believe Christianity is necessarily Me-Centered, by which I mean that each human being individually is the final authority in all matters of doctrine. Each individual personally has the authority to interpret the Bible as he pleases and select what Tradition, if any, he will believe. Thus everyone, in this doctrine of Me, is the final authority. Because the councils also just represent human opinions- possibly in error and sometimes not correctly guided. Christianity thus boils down to an essentially human religion, one in which each person takes the place of our absent Lord in determining true doctrine, and there is no solid way to know what is what (over 30,000 denominations).

This is the terrible failure of Reformation thought, and it is the reason for all the subjectivism inherent in the Protestant belief system. It is no coincidence that the Reformation’s doctrine came at the tail end of the Renaissance’s Humanism. Humanism is Me-Centered, the glorification of Man, and the Reformation takes that a step further, declaring that we will become like gods, distinguishing between good and evil for ourselves rather than relying in faith on the authority representative of God that Christians previously (in the time of the New Testament writings too- its origin is in the Gospels and its practice is all over Acts) had always relied on as the provider of their doctrine.
 
They are not the same. Just compare the doctrines with some of the doctrines of the Catholic church today.
The Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church are not the same Church. There was a schism, remember?
 
The development of doctrine does not mean it is a different Church. Your notion is bizarre.
Lampo,

It isn’t that bizarre…at leat not if you are on the outside.

I once considered converting to Catholicism and spent several years learning everything I could about the church. I read through the CCC as well as other catechisms that predate the current one, read as much as I could of Denzinger and Ott, talked to priests, etc.

I will stop well short of saying that the current 21st century church is a differnt church than the one in the 19th century but there has been quite a bit of “develpment” over the years and not just in externals like the novus ordo mass. it wasn’t that long ago the whole “outside the church there is no salvation” was interpreted much more narrowly than what many of you currently understand it to mean.

Anyway, just wanted to give you my .02 cents worth.
 
Pwrlftr, no doctrine about “extra ecclesium nallu salus” taught infallibly by the Magesterium has been changed. There certainly can be differences of opinion about things that have not been dogmatically defined, though.

As it stands, the doctrine that outside of the Church there is no salvation is still in the most practical sense narrowly defined. People still must be members of the Catholic Church, subject to the Roman pontiff, to be saved. However, we believe that people can enter into that condition in Purgatory if they do not in life.

People can be saved from idolatry or heresy in Purgatory- see 2 Maccabees for an explicit case described over 2,000 years ago, where the Jews prayed for the salvation of people who were guilty of idolatry. So that knowledge has always existed in Christianity. It’s just that the Church came to more fully focus on it and emphasize it when they had reason to, when they discovered continents of people who had never had any possibility of coming to understand anything about the Church in their lives.
 
Pwrlftr, no doctrine about “extra ecclesium nallu salus” taught infallibly by the Magesterium has been changed. There certainly can be differences of opinion about things that have not been dogmatically defined, though.
That is one of the problems/issues I see with infallibility.

How do you know, using your fallble judgement, when something is defined as infallible?

Also, concerning “extra ecclesium nallu salus”, do you agree in the past the understanding of this statement was interpreted much more strictly than what many if not most Catholics currently understand it to mean?
 
One could say that you are your own Pope. One big difference being that you could be wrong.
It is true also that anyone can be wrong including the pope. In fact popes have been wrong in the past.
 
It is true also that anyone can be wrong including the pope. In fact popes have been wrong in the past.
I would really appreciate if you could supply information showing where a pope as spoken ex cathedra ie pronounced infallible, on a matter of faith, which was then shown to be wrong, so I can look at the information myself.

thanks.
 
I would really appreciate if you could supply information showing where a pope as spoken ex cathedra ie pronounced infallible, on a matter of faith, which was then shown to be wrong, so I can look at the information myself.

thanks.
Hi Ag,

I just read your profile and am glad that you are no longer agnostic. Not being Catholic I can’t say I hope you take swimming lessons but am very happy you now believe in God.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top